Need recommendations for Kia Soul EV lighting enhancements

[shumanchu]

Hello, I am hoping to get some advice for the best path forward on my 2016 Kia Soul EV wrt lighting upgrades. My Soul is all electric, and has OEM LED lighting for MOST things, except the following: low beams, high beams, fogs, rear turn signal indicators (1156A), backup/reverse lights (921). I would love to have the backup and rear turn signals be LED, but it looks like that might not be possible since the Zevo LED 1156 options depend entirely on the design of the housing and reflector, and there doesn't seem to be any decent LED 921 bulbs that I can find.

I have made the following list of bulb types and their potential upgrades from searching around the forum:

• Low beams - Projector
  • Oem bulb: H7
  • Upgrade: daniel stern 65w H7

• High beams - Projector
  
  • Oem bulb: H7
  • Upgrade: daniel stern 65w h7
• Fog lights - Projector
  • Oem bulb: 9006
  • Upgrade: 9012 HIR2 (GM23342527)
• Reverse lights - Reflector
  • Oem bulb: 921
  • Upgrade: Osram 64432LL or Phillips 12841B2 (cant find these LEDs anywhere)
  • Possible custom: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...illumination&p=4821208&viewfull=1#post4821208
• Rear turn signals - Reflector
  • Oem bulb: 1156A
  • Upgrade: Zevo 1156A led? depends on design of housing see pics below
• Brake lights - oem integrated led
• Front Turn signals - oem integrated led

For custom lighting options, there are a few routes. The Kia Soul EV has two large (4.6"), round retroreflectors in the rear bumper. In North America these are just reflectors, but in some countries these are combo retroreflectors and rear fog lights. I am having immense trouble sourcing the Kia OEM rear fog modules. I took a look under the bumper and it does appear that the wiring harness for my car has a blocked off plug that could be for the non-existent rear fogs. I would have to do some testing to see if any of the conductors go hot when the fogs are turned on, and also potentially add fuses/relays in the right spots to make this work. Before going down this path, given the knowledge that the OEM rear fog lights use a P21W/1156 bulb, is that adequate for rear fog application? Would it simply be better to ditch the idea of OEM rear fogs and install an aftermarket LED variety from peterson?

If going the aftermarket route, I would like to replace the retroreflectors in the bumper with LED lights. peterson has many options. Since I would also like to supplement the reverse/backup lighting, I could use their round rear fog/backup combo light, but then I lose retroreflectors. Could I add reflective tape (would this be legal & safe)?
Do rear retroreflectors have to be red? Peterson has a clear, round backup module with reflector built in around the edge. They also have a round red version with reflector sold as a taillight, would that be inappropriate in a rear fog application (they look similar to the rear fog lights, but looks can be deceiving). For mounting these LED lights, I can try to cannibalize the retroreflectors for their mounting tabs, or I could 3d print something that would work. I don't think the grommet that peterson sells would work, nor would the flange mount. Are there other options I'm missing? I don't see anything that has reflector, rear fog, and backup in one 4.5" round module.

Now here is a list of potential upgrades that are expanding the OEM lighting (not just upgrading a bulb):

• Rear Fogs - OEM Reflector
  • Oem bulb: 1156/P21W
  • Upgrade: Zevo 1156 led?
  • Assembly: Kia 92451-E4100 LAMP ASSY REAR FOG LH/RH
• Rear Fog - Peterson
  • Assembly: 1217F - Clear, Round, all red diodes
  • Assembly: 1217F-C - Clear, Round, half red half white diodes
  • Assembly: M829R-7 - Red, Round, all white diodes w/reflector
• Aux Reverse Lights - Peterson
  • Assembly: 1217F-C - Clear, Round, half red half white diodes
  • Assembly: 1217KC-9 - Clear, Round, all white diodes
  • Assembly: 1220KC-10 - Clear, Oval, all white diodes - would cut new holes in bumper to left and right of license plate
  • Assembly: 817KC-9 - Clear, Round, all white diodes
  • Assembly: M829C-7 - Clear, Round, all white diodes w/reflector

My car:
https://i.imgur.com/HWKYXCT.jpg

Rear turn signal detail:
https://i.imgur.com/Vn9t5CG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/08KAPZR.jpg

Kia OEM Fogs:
https://i.imgur.com/d7zbOeZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ox6WRpc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/l5hLQEj.jpg

Wiring Harness connector with plug:
https://i.imgur.com/TuGU7Ga.jpg

Retroreflector size:
https://i.imgur.com/b9n9dt1.jpg

Any help/suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[-Virgil-]

Welcome to the board!

I would love to have the backup and rear turn signals be LED, but it looks like that might not be possible since the Zevo LED 1156 options depend entirely on the design of the housing and reflector

...which also means, it might be possible. Make sure to get the Sylvania Zevo bulbs and not the ones that only say just "Sylvania". Review and use the instructions here to find out. The turn signal flash rate will be improper with an LED, so you would need to deal with that. The typical suggestion is to install "load resistors" (like these), but that involves compromising (piercing/cutting) wires, so try and see if there's another way. Perhaps the body computer can be reflashed, either to "see" LEDs back there or to enter a trailer-tow mode that would cancel the load-sensitivity of the turn signal flashing.

there doesn't seem to be any decent LED 921 bulbs that I can find

Well, there's these which put out 200 lumens and are similarly designed/configured to the good first-generation Philips bulb. You could also try out these, but their "claim to fame" is 115 lumens, and a standard 921 bulb puts out 263 lumens, so there's that. Whichever ones you try, you would need to carefully compare their performance as per the link already given.

Your low and high beam upgrade choice is spot on, use the 65w H7 bulbs. Do not put HIR2/9012 bulbs in the front fog lamps, you will make them far too glaring no matter how you aim them, and they will still be useless to you. Best leave them alone and switched off permanently.

two large (4.6"), round retroreflectors in the rear bumper. In North America these are just reflectors, but in some countries these are combo retroreflectors and rear fog lights. I am having immense trouble sourcing the Kia OEM rear fog modules.

What, you mean like this one right over here? And its other-side brother? (there's a British flag at the top of the page if you want it rendered in English)

I took a look under the bumper and it does appear that the wiring harness for my car has a blocked off plug that could be for the non-existent rear fogs. I would have to do some testing to see if any of the conductors go hot when the fogs are turned on

The rear fogs aren't tied in with the front fog switch. The rear fogs (have to) have their own switch and indicator light visible to the driver. If you want factory equipment you will have to figure out where the rear fog switch is located on European Souls (could be built into the same multi-function switch as the front fogs, could be a totally separate switch, could be built into the headlamp switch, etc) and obtain the necessary parts. If that's too cumbersome, here's a nice kit of necessary parts (if it doesn't show in English, click the Swedish flag in the top-right corner of the page).

given the knowledge that the OEM rear fog lights use a P21W/1156 bulb, is that adequate for rear fog application?

It's a P21W, not an 1156 -- similar but not the same. Yes, it's adequate, why not? If you really feel they need to be brighter, you can use this (566 lumens vs. 402 from an 1156). Or you could try out a Zevo 1156R and see how it does.

Would it simply be better to ditch the idea of OEM rear fogs and install an aftermarket LED variety from peterson?

More work and additional problems and it wouldn't look like it was supposed to be there, so...I would vote "no".

If going the aftermarket route, I would like to replace the retroreflectors in the bumper with LED lights

...thus losing your rear retroreflectors, which are very important (and legally required) crash-avoidance devices.

Do rear retroreflectors have to be red?

Yes.

Peterson has a round red version with reflector sold as a taillight, would that be inappropriate in a rear fog application

A lamp designed and intended as a rear fog lamp is appropriate as a rear fog lamp. A lamp not designed and intended as a rear fog lamp is usually not appropriate as a rear fog lamp. You can parse into this with certain brake lights' performance overlapping with the rear fog performance requirements, but it's really best to stick to the intended functions. Want a rear fog lamp, get a rear fog lamp. Want a brake light, get a brake light. Etc.


(Not related to the substance of your question, but to its format: please minimize your use of markup, some of which the board doesn't honor and most of which just makes things annoying in various ways. Specifically, please try and avoid using "FONT" tags, "COLOR" tags, etc. You may not have meant to do so; sometimes if you compose a message in an external program, like MS Word, it adds a bunch of tags and garbage to your text that you might not necessarily notice when you paste it in here.)

 

[shumanchu]

The turn signal flash rate will be improper with an LED, so you would need to deal with that.

My car has a configurable number of blinks (3, 5, or 7) when the turn signal stalk is tapped momentarily for lane changes (they call it One Touch Turn Lamp). This would lead me to believe that the control of blinking the turn signal is handled digitally by the computer, and not by a traditional flasher module/circuit. What do you think?

Well, there's these which put out 200 lumens and are similarly designed/configured to the good first-generation Philips bulb.

Since those claim 200 lumens and the standard 921 is 263 lumens, I dont think its likely I'll get any improvement. Im ok with the reverse lights being incandescent since they are used so infrequently.

Do not put HIR2/9012 bulbs in the front fog lamps, you will make them far too glaring no matter how you aim them, and they will still be useless to you. Best leave them alone and switched off permanently.

For my own edification, is the reason to not use the 9012 bulbs because of the lack of "blacktop"? My assumption was that since these are projector fogs, the lack of blacktop would not produce excessive glare due to the light being focused and directed by the lens. If my assumption here is wrong, I would love to read any resources that could explain further.

What, you mean like this one right over here? And its other-side brother? (there's a British flag at the top of the page if you want it rendered in English)

Thanks for those, my google-fu hadn't found those pages. I am not seeing an option to ship to USA in the standard shipping checkout page. Have you ordered from that site before? Perhaps I just need to email them to get a custom shipping quote. Regardless, those are about $120 USD a piece, a bit over what I'm willing to spend to get OEM rear fogs. I'll keep looking, I'm mostly focusing on used parts from scrapyards, but since the Soul EV isn't very common its very hard to find used parts for it. I was able to find this and this, for a more reasonable ~60 USD. I have contacted them for a shipping to US quote.

The rear fogs aren't tied in with the front fog switch. The rear fogs (have to) have their own switch and indicator light visible to the driver. If you want factory equipment you will have to figure out where the rear fog switch is located on European Souls (could be built into the same multi-function switch as the front fogs, could be a totally separate switch, could be built into the headlamp switch, etc) and obtain the necessary parts.

I found a Owner's manual that shows what the rear fog indicator light looks like (its yellow instead of green, and is the reverse of the front fog pictogram). Additionally, the rear fog switch is located in the same place as the front fog switch on the turn stalk, it is simply a third position that the switch can go to. I will go try to see if the rear fog indicator light is present on my dash and report back. I don't know how to tell if it has a bulb to illuminate it, even if it is present. Additionally, I would have to source and purchase the OEM 3 position fog switch (probably have to buy the whole turn stalk?). I'll start searching.

Or you could try out a Zevo 1156R and see how it does.

Just curious, why the red diode? The lens is red and the stock P21W bulb is white (as I'm sure you're aware of).

A lamp designed and intended as a rear fog lamp is appropriate as a rear fog lamp. A lamp not designed and intended as a rear fog lamp is usually not appropriate as a rear fog lamp.

Understood. However:

You can parse into this with certain brake lights' performance overlapping with the rear fog performance requirements

I guess I was wondering if there are cases where the overlap is 100%. Probably not.

please minimize your use of markup, ... You may not have meant to do so; sometimes if you compose a message in an external program, like MS Word, it adds a bunch of tags and garbage to your text that you might not necessarily notice when you paste it in here.)

Sorry about that, I did indeed use an external program to draft the message. Hopefully this one is better since I did it all in the text editor on the forum.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

My car has a configurable number of blinks (3, 5, or 7) when the turn signal stalk is tapped momentarily for lane changes

Probably using a different flash technique-- or it could just be sending steady voltage to the flasher for X amount of time. Since the rapid flashing is a telltale for a burned out lamp, try removing a bulb to see if the flash is faster with it missing.

For my own edification, is the reason to not use the 9012 bulbs because of the lack of "blacktop"? My assumption was that since these are projector fogs, the lack of blacktop would not produce excessive glare due to the light being focused and directed by the lens. If my assumption here is wrong, I would love to read any resources that could explain further.

Even with better focus (assuming the projector lamp is great at its job and doesn't put excessive light in the glare zone) there's the matter of specular glare for other drivers when it bounces off a wet road, and the direct glare from the car changing angle from road surface variations, hills, and similar. One thing you could do to help bring that down is cover the outer lens of the fog lamp with 1mil Kapton tape. This will reduce the output by about 15% and leaves behind light that is less obnoxious. But remember, the light output is already going to be increased by much more than 15% in the first place so the Kapton tape may not bring you back to safe levels of glare, and you may need to turn them off when approaching vehicles get close to you. This may be why -Virgil- didn't make this same recommendation already (unless he hadn't thought of it but that's rare for him). I recommend the Kapton tape even if you can't upgrade the bulb, just to help your own eyes deal with the backscatter better.

I found a Owner's manual that shows what the rear fog indicator light looks like. Additionally, the rear fog switch is located in the same place as the front fog switch on the turn stalk, it is simply a third position that the switch can go to. I will go try to see if the rear fog indicator light is present on my dash and report back. I don't know how to tell if it has a bulb to illuminate it, even if it is present. Additionally, I would have to source and purchase the OEM 3 position fog switch (probably have to buy the whole turn stalk?). I'll start searching.

Most likely, all the wiring and everything is in place, and the bulb itself may be present in the cavity (it's cheaper to not attempt to program 'exceptions' to populating the bulb cavities when the goal is to stamp out the dashboards and the cars they go in cheaply and quickly). Also, if the rear fog lamp can be installed later as an option by the dealer, it saves them the hassle of installing that same bulb.

You might be able to find the 3-position switch in a junkyard or on eBay.

Just curious, why the red diode? The lens is red and the stock P21W bulb is white (as I'm sure you're aware of).

White LEDs behind red lenses = Terrible brownish-pink light (or pinkish-brown light) that just isn't right. It's part of the thread on how to evaluate LED bulbs.

 

[shumanchu]

try removing a bulb to see if the flash is faster with it missing.

Removing a bulb had no effect on flash rate, so we're good there.

One thing you could do to help bring that down is cover the outer lens of the fog lamp with 1mil Kapton tape. This will reduce the output by about 15% and leaves behind light that is less obnoxious.

Covering the lens with Kapton did produce a nice color, unfortunately it also produced some artifacts in the beam. Turns out it is hard to apply tape to a sphere. I ended up just taking it off. I'll leave the front fogs alone for now.

Most likely, all the wiring and everything is in place, and the bulb itself may be present in the cavity

The rear fog indicator is present in the dash, and most likely has a bulb behind it as you point out.

You might be able to find the 3-position switch in a junkyard or on eBay.

Found one on ebay, ordered from UK for 30 bucks incl shipping.

White LEDs behind red lenses = Terrible brownish-pink light (or pinkish-brown light) that just isn't right. It's part of the thread on how to evaluate LED bulbs.

Thanks for the info. Hadn't had a chance to read that post, now I have. I'll grab some Red and Amber ZEVOs from amazon or somewhere with a forgiving return policy in case they dont work out.

The scrapyard in Norway responded with a quote for the two rear fog modules. It would be $198 USD incl shipping and VAT.

The only piece of the puzzle left is the wiring from the harness connector to the assemblies themselves. Can anyone tell what kind of connector this is? I know there are some generic automotive pigtail connectors on ebay but I don't know what to search for. Here is the plug on the rear fog assy.

Thanks again!!

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Turns out it is hard to apply tape to a sphere[/URL]. I ended up just taking it off. I'll leave the front fogs alone for now.

Yikes, that is a bit clunky

Is that the outermost lens, or is there another one in front of that? If there's another in front, you can apply the tape to that.

Or, you can carefully paint them with Dupli-Color MetalCast Yellow. Information on that and pics of results here.

Here is the plug on the rear fog assy

Not sure of the connector, but you could make your own with blade connectors and put it together with Sugru moldable glue (a silicone kindof stuff). Maybe -Virgil- knows the connector. You might also find that your car already has the wiring in it (like the '01 Corolla LE has the fog lamp pigtails preinstalled so it's a cinch for the dealer to install fog lamps later).

 

[-Virgil-]

Removing a bulb had no effect on flash rate, so we're good there.

Interesting...that is a violation of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, which requires that the flash rate change conspicuously (much faster or slower than normal, or no flashing) in the event of a burnout, which is electrically the same as a removed bulb.

The scrapyard in Norway responded with a quote for the two rear fog modules. It would be $198 USD incl shipping and VAT.

They shouldn't be charging VAT on an order sent to the US.

The only piece of the puzzle left is the wiring from the harness connector to the assemblies themselves. Can anyone tell what kind of connector this is?

I feel like I've seen it before, but I can't put a name to it. It's not a Deutsch DT (those have round pins, not flat blades)...

 

[lightfooted]

I can't say for certain but I think I've seen that connector at my local Cost Less Auto supply. It may be a more common type that you could order from your local auto parts or maybe online. I want to say it was just a generic fog light connector but not sure.

Obviously Kia's are not Volkswagens, however my 2001 Passat has the socket for rear fog lamps as part of the rear lamp assembly and all that is required to make them function is to insert a type 1156 bulb and make the connection on the back of the housing using a jumper wire.

 

[-Virgil-]

Obviously Kia's are not Volkswagens, however my 2001 Passat has the socket for rear fog lamps as part of the rear lamp assembly and all that is required to make them function is to insert a type 1156 bulb and make the connection on the back of the housing using a jumper wire.

1156 is not correct, P21W is. An 1156 will light up, but many/most 1156s have plain brass bases, compared to the nickel plated base of a P21W (or a 3497). Accordingly, most sockets intended to use P21W bulbs rely on that nickel plating for corrosion resistance, and you can run into messy, ugly problems if you use a plain brass bulb in them. Unfortunately, the trend in American weatherlies (the formal name for those application guides where you can look up what bulb your car takes) has been to falsely claim equivalence of bulbs like 1156 and P21W, 1157 and P21/5W, 168 and W5W, etc.

 

[shumanchu]

Is that the outermost lens, or is there another one in front of that? If there's another in front, you can apply the tape to that.

Unfortunately, yes it is the outermost lens. There isn't a protective cover for the glass lens, just a bezel for styling.

You might also find that your car already has the wiring in it (like the '01 Corolla LE has the fog lamp pigtails preinstalled so it's a cinch for the dealer to install fog lamps later).

[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, it does not have the wiring, just the plug at the rear bumper that would allow you to connect both lamps into the main wiring harness.

I'll keep looking online for a nice waterproof plug that will fit, I'm sure there's one.

 

[shumanchu]

Interesting...that is a violation of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, which requires that the flash rate change conspicuously (much faster or slower than normal, or no flashing) in the event of a burnout, which is electrically the same as a removed bulb.

Is the penalty for violating FMVSS108 so small that they would knowingly do this?

They shouldn't be charging VAT on an order sent to the US.

Thanks for that info. The quote was actually "1484 NOK incl. shipping and excl. VAT." I just assumed I would have to pay the 25% VAT. I will make sure to have them not include VAT in the final bill.

 

[-Virgil-]

Is the penalty for violating FMVSS108 so small that they would knowingly do this?

No, and no way (respectively).

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Interesting...that is a violation of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, which requires that the flash rate change conspicuously (much faster or slower than normal, or no flashing) in the event of a burnout, which is electrically the same as a removed bulb.

Do the LED-compatible or "towing" flashers still follow that? I suppose they SHOULD because they themselves shouldn't render that required safety feature inoperative, otherwise they wouldn't be legal.

 

[-Virgil-]

Do the LED-compatible or "towing" flashers still follow that?

No, for many years "heavy duty" or "towing" flashers have defeated the outage indication.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

No, for many years "heavy duty" or "towing" flashers have defeated the outage indication.

Why are they legal if they disable a required safety function?

 

[-Virgil-]

Because it would have been too expensive, complicated and difficult to come up with (and keep up with) a whole bunch of different flashers to accommodate all the possible combinations of tow vehicle and trailer turn signals as far as power draw is concerned. It's an imperfect solution for our imperfect world.

 

[shumanchu]

The only piece of the puzzle left is the wiring from the harness connector to the assemblies themselves. Can anyone tell what kind of connector this is? I know there are some generic automotive pigtail connectors on ebay but I don't know what to search for. Here is the plug on the rear fog assy.

I asked the folks over at find pigtails.com and they were able to identify this as a G12A2 connector in about 10 seconds - incredible! Bummer is they want $80 for 1, and I would need 2..., plus another $80 for whatever kind of plug the wiring harness uses. I haven't been able to find a cheaper alternative yet.

 

[-Virgil-]

EIGHTY DOLLARS!? That's insane. That sounds like they're buying them at full retail from Kia and marking them up. Which, if it's true, means there's a Kia part number for the connector. All you have to do...is find it.

Update: Lookie here -- to my eye that looks like a dead-on match for the $80 G12A2. Or even cheaper by the 10-pak here, also look here.

Update 2: I just went back on findpigtails and tried looking up connectors for a Camry, an Impala and a Taurus. Looks like these clowns sell everything for $80/ea. Now, how much money do you bet they're buying them in bulk quantity via those alibaba links I posted in update 1?

 

[shumanchu]

EIGHTY DOLLARS!? That's insane. That sounds like they're buying them at full retail from Kia and marking them up. Which, if it's true, means there's a Kia part number for the connector. All you have to do...is find it.

Well, maybe they need to charge $80 per pigtail in order to employ a team of people that can correctly identify a random automotive connector from a crappy image in less than 10 seconds. All joking aside, yes $80 is truly insane.

Update: Lookie here -- to my eye that looks like a dead-on match for the $80 G12A2. Or even cheaper by the 10-pak here, also look here.

THANKS!!! Now this project is back in the feasible zone. Do you know if the black vs grey have any meaning (temperature/voltage etc)? I would probably pick up the 5 pack.

Now I just need to remove the rear bumper to get access to the plugged-off wiring harness connector, then find that on aliexpress.

 

[-Virgil-]

No idea. Considering the source, if I were you I'd order two or three types and then pick out the best ones when they arrive.