New XR-E has smaller die?

[bshanahan14rulz]

I thought I would mention that the P4 I got with the x2000 aspheric zooming thingamabob has the smaller ez900 die as well. It must be recent DX lights, which kind of bothers me... As long as it's a cree die, I guess... I'm not overdriving my LEDs, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Welight, you probably go through quite a few LEDs, and I thought I read on Cree site that you were a distributor, you notice anything that might indicate when a person is more likely to receive an ez900 xre or an ez1000 xre?

 

[saabluster]

I thought I would mention that the P4 I got with the x2000 aspheric zooming thingamabob has the smaller ez900 die as well. It must be recent DX lights, which kind of bothers me... As long as it's a cree die, I guess... I'm not overdriving my LEDs, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Welight, you probably go through quite a few LEDs, and I thought I read on Cree site that you were a distributor, you notice anything that might indicate when a person is more likely to receive an ez900 xre or an ez1000 xre?

Seeing as he has never even gotten the memo on these new die in the XR-E I doubt he will be able to answer that.

I love ya Cree but this is bad form not informing the distributors of changes no matter how insignificant. It makes them look bad. :tsk: Of course the possibility exists they did send the memo and Welight failed to read it.:shrug: Who knows. It's not a big deal.

 

[SemiMan]

Cree has very few "TRUE" distributors, i.e. in N.A. Arrow, Digikey, Newark and ATG. ... Arrow has them worldwide. Their franchised distributors would know if told and should tell their customers.

Semiman

 

[IMSabbel]

Strange.

Am i the only one who thinks this is really cool?
Smaller die at the same bin -> higher surface brightness with no loss in efficiency.
Win-Win

(Well, this of course goes for packaged lights with a predefined working envelope)

 

[saabluster]

Strange.

Am i the only one who thinks this is really cool?
Smaller die at the same bin -> higher surface brightness with no loss in efficiency.
Win-Win

(Well, this of course goes for packaged lights with a predefined working envelope)

I'm am totally with you on that. As I said in an earlier post.

"I am very glad to see this. I was worried with all the development around larger and larger dies that they would stop working on flux density. This does not appear to be true since the new smaller dies appear to be even more powerful.:party:This is good for throwers."

 

[WeLight]

I thought I would mention that the P4 I got with the x2000 aspheric zooming thingamabob has the smaller ez900 die as well. It must be recent DX lights, which kind of bothers me... As long as it's a cree die, I guess... I'm not overdriving my LEDs, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Welight, you probably go through quite a few LEDs, and I thought I read on Cree site that you were a distributor, you notice anything that might indicate when a person is more likely to receive an ez900 xre or an ez1000 xre?

As I said I am not aware of this change and did not get any 'memo' Trust me I would have noticed it. The higher output in torches if an XRC is possible as the smaller die actually produces more cd/lum than XRE in TIR apps
XR-C XR-E Typical Lumens @ 350 mA Cree 247 Lens
60 Lum 80 Lum
Using a Cree Designed Cree 247 Lens
Peak Intensity/Lm
XRC= 47 cd/lm
XRE= 24 cd/lm
Peak Intensity
XRC=2,820 cd
XRE=1,920 cd XLamp

XR-C can produce a significantly higher peak intensity than XR-E using narrow beam TIR XR-E optics!

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

I noticed ez1000gen2 pdf is available on cree.com and has stated that the thickness of the ez1000 has increased from 100um to 170um. Perhaps you can keep an eye out? Do you think these would be more suitable for overdriving? I know that bigger area seems to indicate better current handling when overdriven, but what about bigger volume?

 

[Illum]

I noticed ez1000gen2 pdf is available on cree.com and has stated that the thickness of the ez1000 has increased from 100um to 170um.... Do you think these would be more suitable for overdriving?

Bigger volume would indicate more light output at the same amount of current input, whether or not they should be suitable for overdriving will depend on whether or not they thickened the bondwires as welll:whistle:

 

[saabluster]

As I said I am not aware of this change and did not get any 'memo' Trust me I would have noticed it. The higher output in torches if an XRC is possible as the smaller die actually produces more cd/lum than XRE in TIR apps
XR-C XR-E Typical Lumens @ 350 mA Cree 247 Lens
60 Lum 80 Lum
Using a Cree Designed Cree 247 Lens
Peak Intensity/Lm
XRC= 47 cd/lm
XRE= 24 cd/lm
Peak Intensity
XRC=2,820 cd
XRE=1,920 cd XLamp

XR-C can produce a significantly higher peak intensity than XR-E using narrow beam TIR XR-E optics!

I believe you if you say you never got a notice from them. Keep in mind what we are discussing here is not an XR-C. The XR-C die is even smaller than the small die in the posted pictures and the current spreaders are of a different design. This is not an XR-C.

 

[WeLight]

I believe you if you say you never got a notice from them. Keep in mind what we are discussing here is not an XR-C. The XR-C die is even smaller than the small die in the posted pictures and the current spreaders are of a different design. This is not an XR-C.

It seems there is a product change notice related to this that I did not get. It is available here for those that are interested

http://www.cutter.com.au/prodimages/PC-06.pdf

 

[Black Rose]

Your link is not working right. There are 2 http in the actual link.

 

[lonesouth]

Bigger volume would indicate more light output at the same amount of current input

following this, a die the same size as the ez1000 but with the technology of the ez900 would necessarily produce significantly more light. I say significant because they look significantly different in size, especially with the knowledge that the 900 is 70% thicker. Looks like a good marketing play by cree to decrease the die size in order to maintain the pecking order of the binning. I.E. a Q5 with ez1000 tech puts out 105lm @ 350ma, so rather than update the specs with different numbers, they reduced the die till they saw 105lm @ 350ma. Imagine if they had left the die the same size, they could not call it a Q5, but there is still demand for a lower cost two year old technology. A parallel in the automotive world is the GM inline series. They are all 90% the same, just differnt in size, I4, I5, I6. Change the size of the engine, die, and offer it as the cheaper alternative, even though it cost marginally less to make it smaller, but still high enough to make a profit.

 

[Marduke]

following this, a die the same size as the ez1000 but with the technology of the ez900 would necessarily produce significantly more light. I say significant because they look significantly different in size, especially with the knowledge that the 900 is 70% thicker. Looks like a good marketing play by cree to decrease the die size in order to maintain the pecking order of the binning. I.E. a Q5 with ez1000 tech puts out 105lm @ 350ma, so rather than update the specs with different numbers, they reduced the die till they saw 105lm @ 350ma. Imagine if they had left the die the same size, they could not call it a Q5, but there is still demand for a lower cost two year old technology. A parallel in the automotive world is the GM inline series. They are all 90% the same, just differnt in size, I4, I5, I6. Change the size of the engine, die, and offer it as the cheaper alternative, even though it cost marginally less to make it smaller, but still high enough to make a profit.

Perhaps you did not read the above thread in it's entirety. There is a gen 2 EZ1000 die using the same tech in the same area, but thicker size.

I think you are also confused on how LED's are binned and labeled. They don't make specific bins, they make the best they can, and bin them later. Bins are NOT models, they are a grading scale.

 

[saabluster]

Perhaps you did not read the above thread in it's entirety. There is a gen 2 EZ1000 die using the same tech in the same area, but thicker size.

Yes but the Gen II EZ1000 is only available in green.

 

[Marduke]

Yes but the Gen II EZ1000 is only available in green.

At the moment...

 

[saabluster]

following this, a die the same size as the ez1000 but with the technology of the ez900 would necessarily produce significantly more light. I say significant because they look significantly different in size, especially with the knowledge that the 900 is 70% thicker. Looks like a good marketing play by cree to decrease the die size in order to maintain the pecking order of the binning. I.E. a Q5 with ez1000 tech puts out 105lm @ 350ma, so rather than update the specs with different numbers, they reduced the die till they saw 105lm @ 350ma. Imagine if they had left the die the same size, they could not call it a Q5, but there is still demand for a lower cost two year old technology. A parallel in the automotive world is the GM inline series. They are all 90% the same, just differnt in size, I4, I5, I6. Change the size of the engine, die, and offer it as the cheaper alternative, even though it cost marginally less to make it smaller, but still high enough to make a profit.

:thinking:That is some really strange reasoning.

 

[lonesouth]

Please explain to me what the output of an LED would be if it had the newer technology of the thicker 170um die, but with the footprint of the older die. Would it be brighter than the older die of 100um thickness? Does the newer tech offer a higher density, output per area (length by width), than the older tech? If so, what is the incentive for Cree to produce a smaller size die and call it an XR-E?

I do understand that binning is a grade scale, not a model line. I am suggesting that Cree is making binning more of a target than a grade with the smaller dies.

Incidentally, the P4s I just received were also of the smaller die.

 

[Marduke]

Using the newer tech with the EZ1000 die, you would get a higher proportion of R bin emitters.

I highly suspect that is why the XP-G's bins are so high.

 

[lonesouth]

a Q5 with ez1000 tech puts out 105lm @ 350ma, so rather than update the specs with different numbers, they reduced the die till they saw 105lm @ 350ma.

I realize that the above, especially the bold, is flat wrong. A Q5 is any XR-E or XR-C that produces 107-114lm @ 350ma.

There is a gen 2 EZ1000 die using the same tech in the same area, but thicker size.

...

Using the newer tech with the EZ1000 die, you would get a higher proportion of R bin emitters.

It would follow, then, that the Gen II EZ1000 die would produce a lower proportion of lower binned emitters. This would reduce the ability to satisfy demand for these lower bins. So in order to continue to produce emitters in the same proportion of the Gen I EZ1000, the EZ900 was created to allow Cree to continue to offer lower binned LEDs. I think of the future cool white Gen II EZ1000 as Cree's ace in the hole. Care to speculate, or extrapolate, what the potential output of a cool white Gen II EZ1000 will be?

also please forgive that I have been using die improperly in place of dice when referring to a single emitter.

 

[Marduke]

There is no demand for lower bin emitters. High volume customers just buy what is cheapest, regardless of bin. When advances mean better bins become the cheap low end, they became norm. Specing P4 or better is still common, even though most produced are now Q bin.

Most likely the new die size is simply a result of the most cost effective size that could be cut out of the newly designed wafer.