Newbie to Mag mods with ?'s

[djans1397]

I've been trying to read as many threads as possible to educate myself on a Mag build for the past few months, but to be honest, it's REALLY overwhelming with all the apparent options that exist. I'm no dummy, I actually got halfway through an Electrical Engineering degree before deciding to go into medicine.

Anyway, I've seen what appears to be some already well built Maglights on BST, and I'm not opposed to just buying an already built one... which I actually prefer. But I'm not sure what all this "ROP,LOP,Cammed, bulbs... stuff means). If anyone can point me to a few threads that can explain to me what I need to know, the basics, I'd be indebted to you. I'm not lazy, I just can't seem to find what I need in regards to all the mods in here.

I'd like something with a large reflector, like Fivemega's turboheads in order for max throw and brightness. I don't need a pocket carry... allready have plenty of LEDS for that purpose. Something that offers a few brightness levels as well for variable run times. I want the best of the best as that's how I roll, usually. I'd rather get it now than have to exchange it or upgrade it later. Maybe a 3 or 4 cell sized light. I'd need everything as well... batterries, charger. If anyone has something to sell as well, hit me up.

Sorry to be so naive about this. But I'm really needing some help or direction as I REALLY want a Maglight, something that can get me started in the "Maglight world". Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Dan

 

[Flipside]

This FAQ has some info on ROP's, and bulb testing. Lux's list of Mag mods would make interesting reading as well. Member NorthernLights has some good stuff as well. May want to look up his posts too.

 

[SafetyBob]

Here is my suggestion. Oh, Flipside's link is the perfect link for the ROP too.

Start with a plain jane ROP. Two choices (you decide what's easiest for you....and there 20 other ways too, just look at these two as starting points....get your feet wet, THEN go another way if you want)

1. 6 D M@g with 6 NiMH D cell batteries (yes you need a good battery charger, start looking and asking. Sky is the limit here, ask the batteries forum for suggestions after you lurk there...you have to have NiMH, so get the charger if you don't already have one), an ROP bulb, get your self an aluminum reflector (FiveMega's is premium, but others are very, very good also....just a matter of how much you want to blow....), and a borofloat lense to handle the heat and you are done. Want multilevel (I feel it is unneccessary with the ROP but...), then there is only one solution, AW's excellent D soft start replacement switch. Oh, it's that good.

2. 2 D M@g with a 6AA to 2 D battery holder (think Fivemega here too, but other battery holders are good too), the ROP bulb, reflector, and lense and you are good to go. I have my setup like this powered by Sanyo Eneloops and it is a wonderful little flashlight. Amazing just how bright this little sucker is.

There you go. You have just a couple of decisions to make to get started with your first project. Don't worry about M@g85, M@g11, 623......you will just go crazy. Build the simple one FIRST, then we will talk about building a M@g85 with AW's 3 level soft start switch. That is why I suggest NOT getting a soft start switch for your first build. Keep it simple. You can always add the soft start switch later. Most of us with mod the same flashlight a couple of times until we get happy with it. For now, my plain jane ROP is just so cool. Turn it on for blinding white light.....POW, gotcha.

One last comment about your new trek into flashlights. I use Fivemega's battery holders exclusively for two reasons but mainly because I can leave the battery holder intact and still charge the batteries. He has put a charging jack into the bottom of the battery holder. Pop it out of the flashlight and hook it up to the charger....done. Most importantly, minimal wear and tear on you battery holders. Did I mention how easy it was to charge your batteries up this way.

Good luck on your build, you will NEVER regret making an ROP. There is such a history behind it. You have to have one.....

Bob E.

 

[djans1397]

Thanks much Safetybob and Flipside:thumbsup:. This should get me going in the right direction. You're probably right too Safetybob about starting simple and not worrying about the Mag85, 623 etc. It just seems SOOOO complex right now. I'm impatient though and want the biggest, brightest and baddest light RIGHT NOW... all without burning down my house at the same time.

Dan

 

[Flipside]

If you'd like, I'd be happy to share my personal experiences, and my next build with you off-line. PM me if you're interested...

 

[LuxLuthor]

Dan, we have all been there....and it is overwhelming. It may be best to add your specific questions/terms, and I think you will find people really love helping each other out.

Specifically, you mentioned these which I'll answer:

• ROP - "Roar of the Pelican" which is an easy drop in Pelican bulb that looks similar to a stock Maglite bulb. (See my sig with "Most Powerful Mag List" link). They sell them in a blisterpack with both High & Low output bulbs.

• LOP - "Light Orange Peel" which is one of many possible surface appearances of custom made metal reflectors. This is used to make a more flood beam and remove shadow artifacts from some bulb filaments. Others in this category of reflector surfaces:

• MOP - Medium Orange Peel
• HOP - Heavy Orange Peel
• LS - Light Stipple - a finer 'grit' appearance
• MS - Medicum Stipple
• HS - Heavy Stipple
• SMO - "Smooth" mirror finish - gives better distance "throw" of the beam.

• Cammed - The sloped bottom stem of a reflector that is in stock Maglite, and helps move reflector up and down. As shown in this FiveMega sales thread, he made some that allows the cammed stem to be removed.

 

[djans1397]

Thanks Luxluthor.

Below is a light (That slo-ryd has up for sale, hope he doesn't mind me using this for an example) that looks like it'd be everything I'd need in a bright light. Maybe more than what I need right now though. A little more than what I was looking to spend for my 1st maglite, but I'm sure worth every penny, at least until I get my feet wet on something simpler.

1.) I'd like one about this long, see below, (?2 C or D sized?).
2.) One that offers ? 30 - 45 or more mins runtime.
3.) With 3 levels of brightness or 2 at least.
4.) Incan bulb ( not LED) maybe at 750 - 1000 lumens
5.) I simple battery pack that's easy for a guy / newbie like me to charge and not worry about melting flashlights or setting the house on fire.

?-Is the Cammed reflector a standard, different from stock? and if so, why is it needed?
?-Why the need for a soft start and when is it necessary? I assume the bulb would blow at higher lumen ratings otherwise.

I mostly want a light that's as bright as I can have it, but also that offers real world use and runtime. I can always buy the "blue Flame later after I become more knowledgable of these flamethrowers.

I'll continue to read all the excellent info that's mentioned above as well and thanks for the info everyone. Flipside, I'll likely hit you up soon in the next few weeks for a few ?'s. thanks for the offer. It looks like it's going to be a blast building this thing, that is if I can manage it. I equate it to buying a truck/car/gun... the fun starts after you get it and begin customizing it with this and that and such. Thanks also to Luxluthor for your input.

I'm also open to buying a prebuilt one or having one made for me, if anyone in here offers such a service.

Later,
Dan:thumbsup:

Almost forgot to mention... I'm moding my SF M4 with a LEEF 3 x 18650 body and a Lumens Factory HO-M6R. Haven't completed it yet, but I'd hope for something brighter than this will be.


MagLite 2D host, grooved, finned, patterned and tri-bored by Mac
15.6v custom NiMH battery pack by Lux Luthor
Soft-start, multi-level incan driver socket/switch by AW
100w Osram xenon bulb(s)
Borofloat glass lens
Cammed aluminum LOP (light orange peel finish) reflector
Includes Smart Charger and magnet leads

 

[LuxLuthor]

I'll put my responses in red, but there are a lot of the essential parts you would need in Slo-Ryd's sales thread...that by the time you add them up makes that a good deal. You could easily use another bulb in that exact setup, and would have to consider a different battery source depending on the setup.

1.) I'd like one about this long, see below, (?2 C or D sized?).

That is personal preference, but D Mag give more battery options.
​

2.) One that offers ? 30 - 45 or more mins runtime.

I would have to do run times on setups #10-16 in my Maglite list (in my sig), but I'm sure some of those would more than qualify.
​

3.) With 3 levels of brightness or 2 at least.

Then you need the D (or C) Multi-Level Switch/Bulb Holder that AW has for sale, and which is included in Slo-Ryd's thread.
​

4.) Incan bulb ( not LED) maybe at 750 - 1000 lumens

Same answer as #2
​

5.) I simple battery pack that's easy for a guy / newbie like me to charge and not worry about melting flashlights or setting the house on fire.

You first need to pick the bulb/output setup, and then go about the appropriate battery source. FiveMega, MDOCOD, Modamag make battery holders, and I can make a battery pack that charges with two leads. Do not start with that "Torch" 64623 bulb....but it is impressive/fun to eventually have it...which again takes me back to the Slo-Ryd sale.
​

6-Is the Cammed reflector a standard, different from stock? and if so, why is it needed?

The stock Maglite has a plastic cammed stem. If you take off the lens bezel, you will see how the sloped stem moves the reflector up and down for easy focus with any 360 degree rotation of head. The camless can still be focussed, but you now have to screw down the head to the correct depth to put bulb in focal length of reflector.

There is a replacement switch, similar to the AW multi-level bulb holder/switch which does away with the cammed mechanism of stock Maglite switch...and in some of these cases, the cam stem can push down into the structures of these switch replacements.

So the cammed is a nice focus option if you use one of FiveMega's Bipin Bulb holders shown here...in stock Mag switch.
​

7-Why the need for a soft start and when is it necessary? I assume the bulb would blow at higher lumen ratings otherwise.

When a bulb is "cold" the filament has higher resistance. To overcome the startup higher resistance, the battery sends a surge (milliseconds of a "spike") of higher voltage (governed by Ohm's Law V=IR). Once filament heats up (& produces light), the resistance drops somewhat; thereby lowering voltage to a stable "running" level.

It is mainly the startup higher spike voltage that burns out filaments, although all bulbs have a "life" rating that decreases with degree of overdrive...and will eventually result in a dead bulb. You just want to use the soft-starter feature if possible to avoid premature bulb death ("insta-flashing the bulb").
​

I mostly want a light that's as bright as I can have it, but also that offers real world use and runtime. I can always buy the "blue Flame later after I become more knowledgable of these flamethrowers.

True...but I'm shocked that his package is still for sale. I have never seen another complete setup like his, including the case and all.
​

Almost forgot to mention... I'm moding my SF M4 with a LEEF 3 x 18650 body and a Lumens Factory HO-M6R. Haven't completed it yet, but I'd hope for something brighter than this will be.

This is a great starting project too. See this M6 thread with beamshots just done by DM51.
​

 

[larry117]

I was in the same boat as djans1397 but could not pass the amazing deal on the blue flame :twothumbs:
Im surprised that people here do not offer more packages (light, battery, and charger) I think someone could sell a lot of these for the right price

 

[mdocod]

Hi LuxLuther,

I was always under the impression that a cold filament had lower resistance, this causes an inrush current higher than normal operating current. (explaining why a cold bulb will trip current limiting PCB, but can sometimes be "bumped" into operation by warming up the filament in a few short bursts).

Makes sense, as most normal conductive material increases in resistance as it is heated up. Like the wire in an electric motor or generator. I recall having to calculate for the effects on this in a wind generator project

Eric

 

[djans1397]

Great buy Larry. I wasn't quite ready to buy something like this yet, but when I realize that I was, I'll be kicking myself in the rear.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Hi LuxLuther,

I was always under the impression that a cold filament had lower resistance, this causes an inrush current higher than normal operating current. (explaining why a cold bulb will trip current limiting PCB, but can sometimes be "bumped" into operation by warming up the filament in a few short bursts).

Makes sense, as most normal conductive material increases in resistance as it is heated up. Like the wire in an electric motor or generator. I recall having to calculate for the effects on this in a wind generator project

Eric

Thanks for questioning that. I was wrong about this, and got "locked into" my misunderstanding by seeing the resistance drop as an NTC Resistor ("Negative Temperature Coefficient") is heated up; and seeing resistance increase when it cooled. I now see that these are made of a semi-conductor material that is a resistor at low temp, and becoming a conductor at higher temps.

So just to make sure I undersand the soft start blunting effect, and now recognizing that a cold filament has less resistance, allowing a higher inrush initial "spike" current...is the soft starter actually blunting the sudden inrush current, and does the voltage (V=IR) stay constant...or is there a combination of a voltage spike & current inrush that are both blocked? I'm trying to picture what is actually happening that melts and flashes the filament without a soft-starter.

 

[mdocod]

That's a great question, I'll take a stab at it, with the high likelihood that my understanding is flawed, take this as theory, not fact. this is a multi-part answer, and everything in this theory works together and all kind of has to be read separately but taken in as a whole...

1. Inrush current on cold starts causes rapid temperature change:
Caused by a cold filament with low resistance, a HUGE inrush current heats the filament up from room temp to ~5000-6000+ degrees F in a fraction of a second. I would imagine that any material is at least somewhat sensitive to sudden and massive temperature swings, and this is a very substantial temperature swing An NTC or other soft-start here, plays the role of slowing down this temperature swing speed. Instead of it taking place in a fraction of a second, it gives it maybe a WHOLE second to warm up, lol.... In the world of tungsten, that extra time probably makes a lot of difference, but there's more...

2. Current Momentum: (this may be a more far fetched theory)
This one is the concept that I am least sure about but seems to make some sense to me. As I understand, electrical current "flows" and builds momentum much like water through a pipe. There is a fraction of a moment in time between the time that an electron "leaves" the battery and "enters" the bulb filament. It's not a significant issue, but it would seem to me that since in-rush current is very high, that the current would have a lot of momentum, and then the resistance of the filament spikes up with increasing heat, and then a wave of still flowing electrons sort of "hits" the filament and momentary pushes to an even higher drive level than where it stabilizes at thereafter, remember, this is all happening in such a small fraction of a second, I'm not even sure if electrical current momentum could play any role whatsoever with the behavior of a bulb or not, but it's worth considering.
Try to imagine having a pipe from a water tower. Opening a valve all the way at the bottom of the tower and allowing the water to flow fast through the pipe, then moments later, cranking down on the valve to 20% open. The water was moving fast, and had momentum moving towards the valve, if you had a pressure gage just before the valve in the pipe you would see spikes in pressure each time the valve was tightened back down until the water was slowed down again. That pressure spike puts extra strain on the valve (bulb).
Having the NTC prevents the effects of this by making it impossible for the current to ever spike up that fast in the first place, like having a pressure/flow regulator (NTC) in place before the valve (bulb), to protect the valve (bulb) from water hammer damage. .... Actually, maybe a better analogy for an NTC is like a turbine in the pipe that has to be "spun up" to speed before the water can get to flowing full speed. The water hits the turbine, and is slowed down, but as water passes through the turbine under pressure, the turbine speeds up to the speed the water wants to flow at with minimal resistance.

3. Battery behavior...
This is another area that I wonder about. In looking most discharge graphs of a battery, we see that the discharge almost always starts off at a high voltage and rapidly settles to a lower continuously running voltage. I can't help but think this is a factor in bulb failure as well. It's not just "1.2V" per cell as soon as it's turned on, it's often very close to open circuit voltage in the first few fractions of a second into the load, and it sort of "ramps" down to the running voltage. The NTC here offsets the effects of the higher initial voltage by starting off with the high resistance to protect the bulb from this "spike" so to speak. This whole concept still bothers me though, because generally a high discharge rate will cause the running voltage of a cell to sag below normal, so I'm not sure where all of this balances out, but I have my suspicions that battery behavior may or may not be a factor. It would have to be tested on a very precise logging multi-meter that can can thousands of samples per second to really know for sure.

That's all I can think of for now.

Eric

 

[LuxLuthor]

I hope djans1397 can forgive our having descended into "the intellectual abyss," but as is often the case, once you start building a foundation in a subject, the small details become increasingly intriguing.

I did enjoy your very plausible ideas. I have begun to wonder how accurate the comparisons between water (flow/pressure) and electricity really are. In water you are dealing with kinetic (mechanical) dynamics which is different from electrical (quantum/electron) energy.

Ultimately, the tungsten filament in a flashed bulb has melted, so some combination of higher current and voltage has overheated it beyond its melting point. There are the sub-atomic questions of what is actually happening with changing voltage/current/resistance at the electron collision level when switch is closed with too high of battery voltage.

The tungsten is heating up and evaporating, but combining with the halogen, under pressure has it be redeposited on filament (extending life & allowing bulb to be run even hotter), so does inrush spike overwhelm redeposition recyling of halogen-tungsten vapor? Or is the Tungsten sublimating from solid to gas?

I think the higher voltage increases the force of the electron collisions (current flow) in the situation where a bulb overdriven close to its limit, and without soft starting, but I'm going to PM JimmyM for input, and do some more reading.

 

[JimmyM]

The inertia you speak of, isn't real in the way you explain it.
There is an effect that acts "like" inertia, but isn't. Inductance. As current begins to flow in a wire, it builds a magnetic field around itself. That takes energy and causes the current not to flow immediately at it's steady state speed. Once the field has built, the current is flowing at it's maximum "velocity". When the circuit is broken, the magnetic field collapses and continues to push electrons in their original direction. This effect is amplified by winding the wire around in a coil to concentrate the magnetic lines of force.
Now on to the application at hand. The current levels are certainly quite high but the wire length is too short for inductance to play a real role.
The issue at hand is thermal mass. During the initial turn on spike, power is very high (voltage sags a little but current is several times the steady state current). That power has to be dissipated as heat. Since tungsten isn't 100% thermally conductive and filaments are not perfectly uniform, Some of the filament heats before the rest of it. The giant power spike at startup has enough energy to melt a portion of the filament, then
Also, contrary to popular belief electrons don't travel at the speed of light in a wire. Their effect does, not the electrons themselves. Imagine, again, the water analogy. You have a pipe full of water, and you introduce a little more water into one end. The effect of "water coming out the other end" is seen immediately, but the water itself has barely moved. Wires are already full of electrons.
There are also 2 kinds of soft-starts. Linear and PWM.
Linear ones reduce the voltage available to the filament by introducing a voltage drop during times of high current. Some are active (Hotdriver) others are passive (NTC).
The PWM type depends on the thermal mass of the filament and the frequency of the PWM. The filament gets the full voltage of the pack when ON, it's just not on long enough to blow the filament. To a point. You can't run a 6V bulb on a 100V pack without using very high frequency. Imagine how quickly a 6V bulb would blow on 100V. The PWM frequency would have to be selected to keep the ON time (as a function of time, not duty) much less than the instaflash time.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

The inertia you speak of, isn't real in the way you explain it.
There is an effect that acts "like" inertia, but isn't. Inductance. As current begins to flow in a wire, it builds a magnetic field around itself. That takes energy and causes the current not to flow immediately at it's steady state speed. Once the field has built, the current is flowing at it's maximum "velocity". When the circuit is broken, the magnetic field collapses and continues to push electrons in their original direction. This effect is amplified by winding the wire around in a coil to concentrate the magnetic lines of force.
Now on to the application at hand. The current levels are certainly quite high but the wire length is too short for inductance to play a real role.
The issue at hand is thermal mass. During the initial turn on spike, power is very high (voltage sags a little but current is several times the steady state current). That power has to be dissipated as heat. Since tungsten isn't 100% thermally conductive and filaments are not perfectly uniform, Some of the filament heats before the rest of it. The giant power spike at startup has enough energy to melt a portion of the filament, then
Also, contrary to popular belief electrons don't travel at the speed of light in a wire. Their effect does, not the electrons themselves. Imagine, again, the water analogy. You have a pipe full of water, and you introduce a little more water into one end. The effect of "water coming out the other end" is seen immediately, but the water itself has barely moved. Wires are already full of electrons.
There are also 2 kinds of soft-starts. Linear and PWM.
Linear ones reduce the voltage available to the filament by introducing a voltage drop during times of high current. Some are active (Hotdriver) others are passive (NTC).
The PWM type depends on the thermal mass of the filament and the frequency of the PWM. The filament gets the full voltage of the pack when ON, it's just not on long enough to blow the filament. To a point. You can't run a 6V bulb on a 100V pack without using very high frequency. Imagine how quickly a 6V bulb would blow on 100V. The PWM frequency would have to be selected to keep the ON time (as a function of time, not duty) much less than the instaflash time.

I would like to mention that inductance is a function of frequency and that if you ever tried to adjust the PWM for 6V bulb powered by a 100V pack, you'd end up with some ridiculous inductance that would probably make a nice little arc between the terminals on your bulb. No filament needed. Haha

 

[JimmyM]

With just the right parts, you would get quite a nice arc.
But in the instance where you have a very high pack voltage, you would have to add things like an inductor, catch diode, and capacitors. At that point, you're really building a proper Switch Mode Power Supply.
Well beyond the scope of simple soft starters.

 

[mdocod]

yea, I never meant to imply that an electron has a kinetic momentum, couldn't think of any other analogy. Thank you for chiming in here JimmyM! I had heard of the effects of "electronic momentum" having an effect in huge installations, but wasn't sure if the same effect would scale down to something the size of a flashlight.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Jimmy, as is always the case in a discussion beyond one's current (no pun intended) level of understanding, I'm confused about the introduction of the concept of inertia and magnetic field vis-a-vis an issue of startup current/voltage spike when a battery is connected with a resistor (light bulb filament). Maybe you were speaking of another more general scenario about an inductor?

Back to the startup of the bulb. Is it entirely the cold filament that is actually causing the current to rise to several times higher than steady state, and why does the voltage drop slightly?

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, as is always the case in a discussion beyond one's current (no pun intended) level of understanding, I'm confused about the introduction of the concept of inertia and magnetic field vis-a-vis an issue of startup current/voltage spike when a battery is connected with a resistor (light bulb filament). Maybe you were speaking of another more general scenario about an inductor?

Back to the startup of the bulb. Is it entirely the cold filament that is actually causing the current to rise to several times higher than steady state, and why does the voltage drop slightly?

Yes, the cold filament is the culprit for about 99% of the inrush current spike. The other 1% is because the batteries were just resting (bulb was off) and then a load was placed on them, they had a little more voltage to help push current.
The voltage drops under load because a battery has internal resistance and current cannot flow completely freely. So voltage falls. Is that the voltage drop you're talking about?