Newbie w/ a few questions about building around 18650's...

[forumname05]

So I'm a newbie to this flashaholic game but have been lurking around here for a little bit. Basically I'm a cop in the NYPD and work midnights, I keep myself busy in a unit and thus need a very dependable & great light set-up.

I currently have a Surefire 8AX Commander as my duty light and a 6P Led as my back-up. Since picking up the 6P Led I absolutely love it and it's light output/color...it lights up car interiors (when I do car stops) absolutely perfect and MUCH better than my 3 year old 8AX, so much so that I find myself reaching for it much more often than my 8AX.

Being so, I want to build myself two new lights...
I want both lights to use the same rechargeable's (thus how I came about the 18650's) and want both lights to be able to run normal lithium 123A batteries at will if needed just for that added versatility. I've decided that a good set-up will be an 18650x2 as my duty light and an 18650x1 as my back-up.

Here's my plan of purchase:
-2 black FiveMega 18650 bodies, an 18650x1 and an 18650x2
...These would allow me to run 123Ax2 and 123Ax4 if needed, correct?

-Surefire heads and Z49 tailcaps...I like the idea of the Z49/no accidental turn-on's, how is this cap when used with gloves on your hands?
...Maybe Solarforce or G&P heads and matching brand strobe tailcaps...the strobe option sounds like a nice idea, would the strobe tailcaps be of any problem in an 18650x1 or 18650x2 set-up?

-Lumen Factory HO-4 (for the 18650x1) and an HO-9 (for the 18650x2)
...How would the light output/color of these compare to the current 6P Led that I have? Is there a better option that I should consider instead? I figure these would give me a great balance of output & runtime

-AW 18650 cells...are these the best? What is the best charger? A charger that can quick-charge (1hr or so?) and have the ability to charge in a car is a must.

I'm a complete newbie to this, so all help and info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks a ton! :twothumbs

 

[Mjolnir]

For 1 18650 I would suggest one of these:
http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2..._id=29&zenid=l9a51mcagvq0jvcb2minls1329h2e8kl
They are very well made and very bright, but only work for up to 5.5 volts.
For 2 18650's you could get one of these:
http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_14_18&products_id=7
It only works up to 9 volts, so you might be able to run 3 cr123 batteries with a spacer in it.

For the single 18650 light, I would suggest getting a fenix TK11 instead of going the surefire route. It has a forward clicky tailcap standard (which is basically the same thing as a z49). It can run off of 1 18650 or 2 cr123 batteries, and it is apparently regulated on 1 18650. It has a high mode (claims to be 240 lumens) and a mediumish mode (~60 lumens), so you can have more runtime if you need it.
you can get it here for $82 before the cpf discount coupon.

I don't know if there are chargers that can charge a high capacity 18650 in an hour. If it is a 2200 mah battery, then it would need to be a charger capable of recharging at 2.2 amps.
I would suggest getting multiple batteries so you have some ready while the others are charging.

 

[PhantomPhoton]

I'd concur that you want to use a Malkoff LED dropin. It bows the Surefire dropin away in most respects.

However which Malkoff to get requires some consideration:
A Malkoff M30W is a nice warm incandescent-like color, plenty of output, and made to run off of a sinlge 18650. The thing is it can NOT accept 2 CR123's. Using an M60W will let you use both 18650s and CR123's but you'll loose regulated output when using a single 18650. You can also run of of 2 18650s with the M60W.
If you want to wait till there are more in stock the MC-E Malkoff dropins are a tremendous wall of light that should work really well with a 2x18650 setup.
The Lumens Factory bulbs are a good option too, but you can get better output and runtime from LEDs in a nice warm (more yellowish) color from modern LEDs.

The 5Mega bodies will be great for using 18650 since Surefire in it's infinite wisdom don't think we should be using them in the stock bodies.

I'd recommend against the G&P strobe tailcap. They're flaky and prone to malfunctioning/ breaking. Optics HQ has a nicer tailcap with a strobe function. But it is much more expensive and you're stuck buying their not quite so good (compared to a malkoff) LED dropin with it. You could always give the dropin away to a co worker I guess. :thinking:

AW cells are very good so they're usually recommended around here.
Stay safe out there.
:welcome:

 

[PCC]

I trust that you've read this thread. You could breath new life into that old 8AX.

 

[NotRegulated]

forumname05, welcome to CPF.

For incan's I'm using a 2x18650 body with a P91 bulb. I sometimes use my LF EO-9. The P91 is more flood and the EO-9 gives more throw. The LF EO-9 is easier on the batteries since it pulls less amps and it gives a bit more runtime.

For your 1x18650 I would recommend an LED dropin such as Malkoff M60. This will give you some flexiblity to use rechargeables and the option to use 2 123 primaries when the 18650 dies. The Malkoff M30 will work better in the 1x18650 but there is no option to use 2 123 primaries. You may need this option if you use up your rechargeables and/or get stuck on an extended deployment. Having the option to use 2 123 primaries is a good reason to choose the M60 over the M30.

Stick with the Surefire bezels and tailcaps. I use AW protected li-ion rechargeables. Look to Lighthound.com to get both batteries and charger.

 

[Gunner12]

The Lumen's Factory lamps are still Incan lamps so the tint should be similar to the 8AX, maybe a bit whiter. Incan's also don't do well with a strobe tailcap.

The P60L in the 6PL only works up to 9v. More will fry it.

IIRC the 18650 batteries take a bit to charge.

You light want to look at the Malkoff M60L or M60LL. The M60LL has a similar output as the P60L but longer runtime and probably a warmer tint(not as warm as the Malkoff Ws though). The M60L has more output at similar or slightly longer runtime. The M60 models are meant for up to 9v.

:welcome:

 

[mdocod]

For the 2x18650 body, you might put a KT2 on it, and try a EO-M3T with a pair of protected 18650s, this will give you some incandescent "punching" power when you really need it with a runtime around 45 minutes. Use a 1x18650 light as your primary go-to light. I personally suggest either a 1x18650 FM or Leef body coupled to the tailcap of your choice and any head you like (maybe a stainless steel for fun) and the M30, OR.... The EagleTac T10L which gives you easy access to a slightly lower output mode that extends your runtime massively for when you need it.

Only problem with these options is they are not going to be backwards compatible with CR123s..

In the 1x18650 class of LED configurations, you have to decide between regulation on an 18650, or backwards compatibility with CR123s. The non-regulated options on the 18650 will have steadily diminishing output to about 50% of initial on an 18650, but have the advantage of great runtime (like double or more than of the regulated options that stay at full power through the discharge)

In the 2x18650 class of lights, the only way to get backwards compatibility with CR123s and actually be able to use all 4 CR123s that the light will hold, is to use one of the many "wide-voltage" compatible LED modules out there, some are like ~4-18V rated, some like ~3.7-13V" rated etc etc.... just needs to be rated for up to 12V for this to work on either 2x18650s or 4xCR123s... I think the best module available currently for this is the DereeLight 1SM-2 rated up to 16V with a LED drive set to 1.2A....

So it all just kind of depends on what you want to have on tap as far as runtime options, output options, etc etc... I think every LEO needs a good compact (read 1x18650) light as their primary go-to. A backup to that (another 1x18650 light, could be identical to the first) for the sake of preparedness in the case of one's battery dies on you for whatever reason... And then a heavy hitter that runs on multiple 18650s, that you have the option to holster but don't always need to.

Eric

 

[Justin Case]

The OpticsHQ/TLS tailcap definitely has great performance in terms of a multifunction tailcap when combined with the OpticsHQ/TLS LED drop-in. But IMO, there are some issues with the product that you should be aware of prior to purchase.

First, the tailcap draws power even when the light is off. I estimate that 2x16340 Li-ion rechargeable cells might last about a month before needing a recharge, assuming no other usage of the light. If you back out the tailcap, then it doesn't draw any power, but you also lose immediate function (you have to screw down the tailcap to complete the circuit first).

Second, the TLS tailcap is not compatible with all drop-ins. Mine certainly does not work properly with my Malkoff M30, nor Deal Extreme 6090 and 11836 drop-ins. With the M30, the tailcap doesn't seem to like running at 3.7V. The multifunctions don't work right at all. With the two DX drop-ins, for some reason the tailcap doesn't turn off. Once you use the light, there is a constant, very low level illumination.

Third, the buttons use glow in the dark materials. For so-called "tactical" use, I think that this can be a target indicator.

Fourth, the buttons are clicky types. It is a very soft sounding click, but audible nevertheless. This might be another target indicator. You'd probably have to be very close to hear the buttons click, but I'd prefer no noise period.

I would stick with SureFire bezels. You can get them for about $20 on the CPF Marketplace. The price difference vs Solarforce or G&P is probably only about $8. SureFire bezel design is a little more robust IMO.

With the 18650-capable SureFire Classic products (e.g., FiveMega, bored-out SureFires), you should also be aware that the wall thickness directly under the O-ring grooves in the tail is very thin. My estimate is ~0.4mm. I would not want to drop the light on its tail or use it as an expedient impact weapon and then have to depend on successful function afterward. I personally would stick with a standard SureFire bore diameter and use 17670 cells and sacrifice some capacity vs 18650 cells for greater structural strength.

I would not get one of those G&P strobing tailcaps. There are conflicting reports that it draws a fair amount of current even when off. Like the TLS tailcap, it also seems that it doesn't work properly with some LED drop-ins. But at least with the TLS product, there is a known drop-in that is designed to work properly with the tailcap. IMO, a critical flaw is the user interface. You get constant-on mode by pressing the tailcap button once and releasing it within 1 sec. If you hold the button down for longer than 1 sec, the G&P tailcap goes into strobe as you hold down the button. Seems backwards to me.

 

[GreyShark]

Here, I'll throw you a curveball!

I'm working on a similar light and I'm starting to favor a 2x 18500 setup instead of 2x 18650. The 2x18500 still gives you 3000mah which is about 3/4 of what the 2x18650 will do but is compatible with 3 CR123 primaries so it's a 6v to 9v light with a slightly shorter overall length. I find the 3 cell body to be a good length for carry but 4 cells is kind of pushing it.

The clickies are a good idea with a C-series tailcap on a body bored for the 18xxx size batteries because of how thin the metal gets at the o-ring cuts on the tail. By using a spacer you can get the tailcap to bottom out so a lot of lateral stress can be offloaded to the body instead of all concentrated on the thin spots on the tail.

 

[StandardBattery]

The Lumen-Factory drop-ins are good bang for the buck so maybe, but Malkoff drop-ins can probably take more abuse and there are more options to tailor the output.

One problem with the Malkoff drop-ins though is they don't adjust well to 2xCR123A or 1x18650 so that might be a problem. They also only have 1 output level, OK for the big gun, but a little inflexible for the small one.

Another issue is the Malkoff dropins can have some issues with certain 18650 battery tubes, where tinfoil,copper-tape or other mechanism maybe required to make a soilid connection in the wider tube.

Do you really need the runtime of 2x18650? If so your on the right track, with the 5mega tubes. Id maybe outfit this light with a Malkoff M60 (about 3hrs runtime) or (if you can get one) the M60-MC-E (I'm guessing maybe 1.5-2hrs). Please confirm the runtimes.

For a 1x18650, I'd think about just buying a Fenix TK-11, 2 levels, solid performer. But if you go Malkoff, with a 1x18650 the M30F or M30WF would really be great for car searches, as it's got a phenominal floody beam. It should light an interior like day time.

Sometimes assembling pieces can create lights that are not as reliable, so consider that.

Good luck!

:welcome:

 

[Chrontius]

I'd be inclined to go with a warm Malkoff MC-E for the big gun, and a Fenix TK-10 backup, assuming a good weapon-mounted light. I don't know how the TK-10 handles in a Rogers grip, and I don't know your preferred night-shooting techniques. YMMV.

For what it's worth, I'm thinking about putting a P7 in my 8X. Should be a blast

 

[forumname05]

WOW, Thanks for all of the info...it's almost too much/too many options for a newbie like me

So, I guess I'll toss out the strobe tailcap idea to simplify things and just go with a simple click tailcap such as the SF Z49, as mentioned I like the 'lip' on the Z49 to help prevent accidentally turning on the light when it's on my duty-belt. (...are there any other similar but cheaper tailcaps?)

From your responses I've been able to gather the following of what I'm looking for:

Two lights, one using a FiveMega 18650x2 body which will be my primary duty light and the other will be a FiveMega 18650x1 body as my back-up. I'll use SF bezels and tailcaps.

I guess the only confusion or thing that I need simplified is my dropi-in module choice. Basically I really like the output/color and such of my current 6PLED, I absolutely love the way it lights up car interiors on car stops...I'm going to 18650 lights because I'd love the additional power, run time and convenience of re-chargeables. So, what is a good and very durable module/drop-in that I can use in both the 18650x2 and 18650x1 lights that I'm looking to build and still be able to run on CR123x4 & CR123x2 if needed???

As far as the batteries/charger...I'll go with AW 18650 cells, is the PILA charger compatible with the AW cells? How 'quick' is the quick-charge stage on the PILA charger with the AW cells?

 

[Mjolnir]

I don't think there are many dropins or lights that can run regulated off of 18650's and cr123 batteries. There are many that run off of cr123's regulated, but are not regulated on 18650 batteries. This means that the light will become gradually dimmer with an 18650.
The fenix TK11 R2 is (apparently) one of the few lights that can run regulated off of an 18650 and cr123 batteries.
It is also much cheaper than the 100+ dollars you would be paying for a 6p, a dropin, an 18650 body, and the z49 tailcap (which is $40 dollars by itself). It has comparabel build quality to the surefires, AND it has a low mode as well in case you don't need full output. It is also type III hard anodized, while the surefire is not.

 

[forumname05]

I don't think there are many dropins or lights that can run regulated off of 18650's and cr123 batteries. There are many that run off of cr123's regulated, but are not regulated on 18650 batteries. This means that the light will become gradually dimmer with an 18650...

Does that mean that it will slowly dim out toward the end of the batteries cycle? I'm not too worried about that as my current Sure Fire 8AX Commander does the same and I'd think I'd rather it do that so that I have some sort of warning instead of just suddenly cutting out.

 

[Mjolnir]

Sort of. With most of the lights/dropins that are not regulated, you get an output curve like the one on this light:
http://www.light-reviews.com/eagletac_t10lc2/ (if you scroll down to the bottom you can see the runtime graphs).
You can see that it has slightly less output even when the battery is fully charged, and the output quickly declines to nearly 50%. This is among some of the better unregulated 18650 curves. It doesn't just dim towards the end of the cycle, but rather starts dimming right after you start using it. Depending on how much it dims you may or may not notice the dimming (because the eye adjusts to the lower light), but you will not be getting the advertised output during usage with 18650's.
If this is what you want, there are less expensive options that surefire. The normal fenix TK11 (Q5 version, not R2 version) is not regulated with an 18650 (review here), and has 2 modes and a forward clicky tailcap. The eagletac T10Lc2 is also unregulated on an 18650, and also has 2 modes.
If you really want something that uses dropins, you might want to consider getting one of these. The dereelight Cl1H uses the same drop in modules that a surefire 6p uses. However, the Cl1H can use 18650 batteries right out of the box, has a type III hard anodized coating, and a forward clicky switch (just like the z49). You can choose what drop in module you want in your light. If you wanted you could still get a malkoff dropin afterwards if you don't like the options that it comes with.

 

[jaundice]

Forumname05;

I went through the same process you're going through about three months ago. I had a Streamlight SL-20XP and 2 poly stingers that I'd been using on the job for more than 10 years. Incadescents, with Ni-cad batteries. I decided I had to upgrade.

I'm required to use a plastic light at work, so my options are a bit more limited than yours. I wanted rechargeable for the cost savings, but more so for the piece of mind knowing my batteries are charged at the beginning of a shift.

I ended up getting a Pelican 7060 as my primary light. It's simply an awesome light. For a backup (I always carry a backup), I carried a Surefire G2, and later a G2L on my belt. I decided to go with the Malkoffs. I bought an M60, an M60L and an M60LL. I put the M60 in a G3L (aluminum bezel for heat dissipation) and a z59 clickie. I'm currently using Cr123s since this light is to be used if my 7060 goes dry. Once I'm through this set of batteries, I'm probably going to get a pair of 17500s to power it. The M60L went in the G2 on my belt as a backup, or use when the sun is up. (Ever walk in to a dark basement on dayshift? 140 lumens on your belt is NICE)

I traded for a Malkoff M30, and it is simply AWESOME. If I were in your shoes, and could carry a metal light, I'd get an 18650 body and an M30 with a clickie tailcap. You'll get 2 full hours of regulated 220 lumens. Keep an extra 18650 for an additional 2 hours. These lights will easily fit on your belt for backup during the day.

Keep in mind that the malkoff/surefire route is excellent, but expensive. I'm happy I went that route. I'm old school in the fact that I like one mode of output, so that when I turn on my light, I know how much light is going to come out the front, so the Malkoff works for me. However, there are several multi-mode duty quality lights out there for $60-$85, instead of $100+ for a Malkoff setup.

I can see the merit in having a dual mode light, so that you have ~60 lumens when searching a car or directing traffic. To that end, check out the Eagletac T10L or T10C2. It has two modes, and they're changed by twisting the bezel. (The TK11 seems okay, too) I would avoid the Olight M20, since you have to scroll through all of the modes to get back to a previous mode.

As for length, I'd be wary of a 2x18650. I played around with my G3 (3x16340) by adding a cell extender, making it 4x16340, and that's a long, thin light. I think that 3x16340 is as long as I'd go. For rechargeables, that equivalent is 2x18500. The added advantage is that this will support a Malkoff M60 for 3+ hours, and if you burn through that, you can use 3 x 16340 as backup. Keep in mind that the Malkoff M60 won't take 4x16340s, it's too much voltage.

In the end, there are a lot of great choices.

-John

 

[mdocod]

The fenix TK11 R2 is (apparently) one of the few lights that can run regulated off of an 18650 and cr123 batteries.

I'm not sure where you are getting this?

It has been tested by many, the TK11 is not any more regulated than any other buck regulated light driven by a single 18650...


--------------

forumname05,

The requirement to have backwards compatability with CR123s on both bodies pretty much eliminates the ability to use a MalkOff in the 2x18650, and eliminates any chance of being solidly regulated in the 1x18650 configuration... But those are reasonable sacrifices to make and you will likely hardly ever notice the dimming. Here's what I think you should do and why:

2x18650 body option: >DereeLight 1SM-2:
Why?: It's the only buck regulated module I am aware of that pushes the LED good and hard (over an amp) while at the same time being rated for up to 16V input. It will run IN REGULATION through a complete discharge on either 4xCR123s or 2x18650s so you'll be all set in that regard.

1x18650 body option: >MalkOff M60:
Why?: It's buck regulated so you'll have your CR123 backwards compatibility, but trades off higher voltage capability (above 9V) for much better low voltage operation. While it will not give you a "flat" discharge curve on an 18650, it will operate very close to or at full output on a fresh cell, steadily diminishing from there as you run it down over the course of a couple few hours. It's said that the M60 runs at full output down to ~3.8V input, whereas MOST other buck regulated modules out there, like the LumensFactory, or DereeLight, etc etc, are going to require more voltage overhead to run at full output. (most of them achieve maximum output with a minimum input ~4.5-5V, they will work on an 18650, but at about half the starting brightness they are designed to be capable of, with much extended runtime, it's an option, but you probably would be better off with the brighter output )

Eric

 

[Mjolnir]

It is true that the TK11 Q5 is not regulated with 18650's, but a member has showed a runtime graph that shows flat regulation with the R2 version here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2783188#post2783188
I haven't seen anyone else confirming or disproving this, so i'm not completely sure if it is true or not.

 

[groo01]

Groo here
I am a 5 pointed star out of Ohio.
I f you have a surefire p6 or g2 or g3 look at the Dereelight
drop in for a quick converson. For a quick backup light they are fine
but only the cr123 size cells will fit. Ok for a backup light.
If you need a complete change with primary backup I would
go with the Fenix TK-11 upgraded{I have one} for about $90 which will use 18650s with cr123 backup and then look at a Super Light
Like the ACE.
The TK-11 with the hi- low setting will be used most of the time on low
as the high will hit your nightvision too,but give you the option.
A Super Light will still be smaller that most of the old mag types,
but give you that WALL OF LIGHT we like so well.
I would have had suggested the Dereelight DBS [I have one]
but the use of primaries is not recommended.
The ACE says they can.
I understand the need for the primaries as we might be out away from the charger for some time, but the new charger from AW has a dc input
for a car power port, so you can charge in about 3 hrs.
Even at $12 each for the 18650s the charge they hold and
the number of charges they will last will keep you out of the poor house.
I would get a charger and 8 to 12 cells.
This will give you full lights, a reload,and a load at home.

 

[forumname05]

Alright, I think I may have just complicated things with thinking of a 18650x2 as my duty-light. Maybe I should switch to an 18500x2 body? If I'm reading correctly it should make my drop-in options much more vast (???)... and it would be a more user friendly sized light, it'd be the same size as a 9P, correct?

With that being said, what about the new LF LED's such as this one:
http://www.lumensfactory.com/product_detail.php?id=67

If my newbie eyes are correct, that should work with anything from an 18650x1, 18500x2, 18650x2 as well as CR123X2, CR123X3 & CR123X4, correct???

Are there any nice 2 or 3 mode options? I don't really need the strobe or sos to complicate things. (the Fenix TK11 R2 is looking very nice)


Also, does anyone make a pocket clip that can go between the bezel/head & body of a 6P/9P?