Next greatest LED?

geepondy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 15, 2001
Messages
4,898
Location
Massachusetts
The Cree and the Rebel were although not huge, fairly sizable upgrades from the likes of the LuxIII's and V's. Are there anymore sizable upgrades projected in the near future? Is the "K2", the LED projected to be used in the Arc 6 brighter then a recent version Cree?
 
The new K2 is about equal to the Cree offerings right now. The beauty of the K2 LED is the color tint and that it can be driven to 1500mA. It is a nice warm color.
 
While I don't feel this question has been fully answered, I'd like to ask an associated one. Around how long is a product life cycle in the LED market? In other words, every how often does a new model come out from a major manufacturer? Is there anything akin to Moore's Law for LEDs?
 
While I don't feel this question has been fully answered, I'd like to ask an associated one. Around how long is a product life cycle in the LED market? In other words, every how often does a new model come out from a major manufacturer? Is there anything akin to Moore's Law for LEDs?

When LumiLeds ruled the market that was something that could be predicted, now that Cree and Seoul has entered the market it is a little more difficult to predict when the new LED will come out.

Cree had a huge explosion of growth when the hit the market with the p2 through the r2. Now things have slowed down somewhat.
 
Hopefully the 1000 lumen Cree or a Lux V type LED with 4 Rebel 100 or simialr die(smaller LED size).
 
Cree is supposedly developing their own version of the P7. Most likely it will have better thermal management than the P7, or any 4-die Rebel.
 
So the "Cree 5" that I read about being in so many lights, probably the brightest right now? Does the Photon Proton use a K2? When people say "P7", is it the successor to the Seoul P4? Boy, we need an excel spreadsheet listing all the big time LED manufacturers and their succession of LED releases.
 
The new K2 is about equal to the Cree offerings right now. The beauty of the K2 LED is the color tint and that it can be driven to 1500mA. It is a nice warm color.

K2 TFFC is equal to old Cree bins. It can be driven to 1,5A to reach the output of Cree Q5 @1A. Not everybody likes warm colors.

Seoul P7 is four P4 dies (Cree and Seoul use the same dies so they're equally efficient) to reach higher output in single emitter. Cree version of P7 won't have better thermal management because it will produce the same amount of heat (the same efficiency) and P7 has low thermal resistance.
 
So the "Cree 5" that I read about being in so many lights, probably the brightest right now? Does the Photon Proton use a K2? When people say "P7", is it the successor to the Seoul P4? Boy, we need an excel spreadsheet listing all the big time LED manufacturers and their succession of LED releases.

Cree XR-Q5 is the name. Cree is the company. XR-E is the model. Q5 is the bin. There is a higher bin out right now, the R2 bin.

As for the P7, it is pretty much 4 Seoul P4 dies + phosphor placed in one package. So it's not a successor to the P4.

This thread might be helpful.
 
So the "Cree 5" that I read about being in so many lights, probably the brightest right now? Does the Photon Proton use a K2? When people say "P7", is it the successor to the Seoul P4? Boy, we need an excel spreadsheet listing all the big time LED manufacturers and their succession of LED releases.

There is a chart of the various LED's, and specs associated with them here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=156772
 
K2 TFFC is equal to old Cree bins. It can be driven to 1,5A to reach the output of Cree Q5 @1A. Not everybody likes warm colors.

Seoul P7 is four P4 dies (Cree and Seoul use the same dies so they're equally efficient) to reach higher output in single emitter. Cree version of P7 won't have better thermal management because it will produce the same amount of heat (the same efficiency) and P7 has low thermal resistance.

Yes, the Seoul has a better thermal resistance.
Cree XR-E=8°C/W
Seoul p4=6.9°C/W
Lumileds K2 TFFC=5.5°C/W

You still have to take into account the packaging of the LEDs also. The Cree has a larger surface mount area compared to the Seoul, so that helps in removing heat also. IMO, the Cree is a better package then the Seoul. I really like the K2 TFFC, the Cree is my second choice, but right now the Cree is what I use most due to them being easier to purchase.

I understand not everyone likes the warmer colors. I like the Cree in a WG tint versus WC, but this is just my opinion.

If you have used any rebels or K2 LEDs you will see that they put out a nice smooth beam with no artifacts.
 
The new K2 is about equal to the Cree offerings right now. The beauty of the K2 LED is the color tint and that it can be driven to 1500mA. It is a nice warm color.

I have to admit that I'm really taking a liking to the K2-TFFC. The Arc6 uses it and the color is just perfect. I don't like the cool HID look that's typical in LED's and the K2 (at least the ones on the Arc6) doesn't have any of that. We put the arc6 beam next to a Surefire P6 beam and it is more incandescent looking than anything I've seen. It's still cool temperature wise but doesn't have that objectionable blue tint that you see whenever you do a side by side with a hot wire. I don't know what the variations are on the K2-TF but if they can make these consistently, then I'll be back to using Lumileds instead of Crees.

Yes, the Seoul has a better thermal resistance.
Cree XR-E=8°C/W
Seoul p4=6.9°C/W
Lumileds K2 TFFC=5.5°C/W

But the K2 beats them both. The K2-TFFC also (if I recall correctly) has a higher operating die temperature. Of course, they all still drop in output with die temp but the K2 can be used in applications where heatsinking may not be optimal.
 
Last edited:
While I don't feel this question has been fully answered, I'd like to ask an associated one. Around how long is a product life cycle in the LED market? In other words, every how often does a new model come out from a major manufacturer? Is there anything akin to Moore's Law for LEDs?

Haitz's law. In oversimplified terms, the doubling in output is roughly every year and a half. We've been following the trend since the late 60's. I think that the first commercial success was the scaling up from the 5mm to the Luxeon LED which allowed using LED's in handheld flashlights and making them acceptable alternatives to incandescents. Then we've seen progressive increases in output from the same die size for about 8 years now. Putting multiple emitters into a small area is another way to sidestep Haitz's law but it didn't really increase efficacy. I think the use of multiple emitters will continue at this point for fixed lighting (sorry flashlight lovers) since it's a cost effective way to increase output from a given area/volume comparable to the incandescent. I think fixed lighting is the largest market segment for LED's and flashlights will be along for the ride, not driving it.
 
The Cree and the Rebel were although not huge,
the 1st versions DOUBLED the output at same power, thats not huge?
:thinking:

as to the K2: just a tad brighter than current "Q5-R2"s or"U"s, for 1.3 times the current?
doesnt sound like that enormous evolution to me - and is the same as with the last offerings from that manuf.
Extreme marketing hype - unsatisfying product

... dunno about the tint, will get new K2 lights soon to check for myself.
Hopefully they stopped "Luxeon lottery" with the new K2s, got 2 Inova T1s in 2007 and they were perfect examples of the lottery: one bright and white, the other dim and ugly
 
I don't know what the variations are on the K2-TF but if they can make these consistently, then I'll be back to using Lumileds instead of Crees.

Me too!

I can't wait for Lumileds to get production in gear again.
 
Hey guys don't count out emitters like the golden dragon or platinum dragon. Osram is clearly working hard for a piece of the market.
What is great is that so many companies are now in this and there is a LOT of cash being spent on R and D. they are doing this in order to come up with a GREAT replacement for compact fluorescent globes. they are going for max output with minimum power. all of this is good for us since one of the other goals is developing emitters with really goo and consistent tints.
I will go way out on a limb here and say that in the next couple of years we will see some fantastic leaps in technology. We will see some major jumps in efficiency and in terms of lumens per watt we may see new technology replacing LED technology even that is possible. Leds will be getting better in every way. In many ways we are really at the beginning if the transition to LED technology. we will be seeing them in EVERYTHING. they will be getting brighter and brighter.
IMHO the P7 is an amazing emitter clearly a replacement for the LUX V emitter (which was no slouch) the New K2, P7 platinum dragon, Seoul and Cree and others will all be producing NEW and exciting emitters over the next year or two.
We may also see some industry consolidation where one company will swallow up another in order to acquire their (new) technology rather than having to licence it.
Yaesumofo
 
IMHO the P7 is an amazing emitter clearly a replacement for the LUX V emitter (which was no slouch) the New K2, P7 platinum dragon, Seoul and Cree and others will all be producing NEW and exciting emitters over the next year or two.

P7 started a whole new revolution of its own :grin2:
In the past all LEDs are relatively the same size...whether its a luxI, SSC P4, or a luxV shared basically the same emitter size...the P7 is...well, a bit fat :whistle: :rolleyes:
IMO P7 should be used in fixed lighting instead of portable lighting...sharing the same function as OSRAM's Ostar LEDs.

Lumileds came out with rebels
SSCs came out with P7s
CREE came out with the 7090 XR-E Q5
Osram's currently producing "platinum dragon" and Ostars
I have no idea what Edison is doing at the moment:ohgeez:
do we really need another great LED?
 
Have we reached the peak from max outputs from a single die that they are now using multi dies like P7? Will the future brighter LEDs all be multi die types?
 
Haitz's law. In oversimplified terms, the doubling in output is roughly every year and a half. We've been following the trend since the late 60's. I think that the first commercial success was the scaling up from the 5mm to the Luxeon LED which allowed using LED's in handheld flashlights and making them acceptable alternatives to incandescents. Then we've seen progressive increases in output from the same die size for about 8 years now. Putting multiple emitters into a small area is another way to sidestep Haitz's law but it didn't really increase efficacy.
Well, if the only way Hait'z law can be obeyed is by increases in efficicacy, that can't continue for long without entering into perpetual motion territory.

The reason multiple dice woudln't apply is that output per unit area hasn't changed -- I suspect the law has to do with surface brightness, or output per unit area increasing progressively. Similar to how running huge arrays of chips in parallel doesn't qualify as a "Moore's law" improvement -- as Moore's law relates to the DENSITY of transistors.

I think the use of multiple emitters will continue at this point for fixed lighting (sorry flashlight lovers) since it's a cost effective way to increase output from a given area/volume comparable to the incandescent. I think fixed lighting is the largest market segment for LED's and flashlights will be along for the ride, not driving it.
For fixed lighting IMO the ideal is diffused lighting anyway, so multiple dice makes a lot of senes. Another idea would be to do things like separating the phosphor layer from the blue chip. I recall there was one company that was selling ceiling panel fixtures where the phosphor was built into the diffuser, and "backlit" by separate blue LEDs. That way, if the phosphor were to decay, or the user wanted to switch to a different color temperature, the phosphor would be separately replaceable, but the LEDs would continue to work. Separating the phosphor from the emitter is something that isn't possible with traditional fluorescent technology, beucase of the danger of free-floating 240nm UV unknowingly sunburning the crap out of everyone's eyes...

I believe there still is a purpose for throw even aside from flashlights, so single die LEDs will necessarily need to improve in order to be adopted into general lighting as well. For example, things like vehicle headlights, and small spotlights (necessry to compete with small halogen spots) will require single dice.

Have we reached the peak from max outputs from a single die that they are now using multi dies like P7? Will the future brighter LEDs all be multi die types?
There isn't really a theoretical peak to single die output power. There is a practical limitation primarily due to heat. The main theoretical limit is 100% conversion efficiency of electricity to light. Right now the best blue LEDs are around 40%. Going frm say 20-40% efficient (The previous generation "jump") saw a huge jump in light output, but relatively little change in heat production -- most the electrical input is still turned into waste heat. As 100% efficiency is approached, the amount of waste heat to manage will decrease dramatically, thus allowing more power to be crammed through a tiny die without causing it to overheat. consider somedy in the future a jump from 80-90%. In terms of efficiency, that's a small jump, but waste heat production is halved.

. However, there is a practical peak due to things like heat buildup and resistance.
 
Top