Noob looking to convert a halogen

[Crowmark]

I'm lookikg to pop by noob cherry by converting a Niteflux VisionStick Halogen 10 to an LED emitter. Konalover posted this thread asking for guidance about building a light and BrianMc replied with several links, one of which was for the Cutter Electronics MCEQUICCpower light engine, which looks like it might well do the job for me.
Some background. I bought a Niteflux VisionStick Halogen 10 about 2 years ago, thinking it would light the way on my (mainly) rural commute to work. Sadly, I soon found out that either (a) my eyesight is worse than I thought or (b) claims from other buyers in their reviews that it 'lit the road ahead superbly' were a tad wide of the mark or (c) both! I resorted to using both the Halogen 10 and the Cateye EL610 I'd previously bought (thinking it was the dogs cahuna's a the time, only to be gravely disappointed) until I found that once could buy the headlights on their own from Niteflux. Since Niteflux dealers in the UK are rather scarce for some reason I bought the unit direct from the manufacturer, but since they are in Australia and I am in the UK, I got stung by Her Majesty's Robbers and Cutthroats to the tune of £20 on top of the purchase price, which added up to nearly £90! Since I am ny nature both a skinflint and a womble, I decided to see what there was in the way of DIY solutions.
Anyhoo, to business;
The halogen-driven guts of the light at present look like this:

On the left is the standard Halogen 10 insert, on the right is the innards of the Enduro 8 headlight unit. As far as I can tell, the small PCB in the halogen headlamp is just to give the on/off switch somewhere to go and for the various connections to be neatly done. My intention would be to replicate the aluminium housing you can see on the right hand module to give the Cutter engine somewhere to sit (I am lucky enough to have access to a centre lathe).

This in the lens from the Enduro 8.

From Googling this it looks like it might be a Ledil?

My questions are, do the far more experienced amongst you think this will work OK?
Is this engine a fit-and-forget i.e. do I need anything else (on/off switch, lens and battery excepted) to produce a working light?
Will the standard Niteflux battery be man enough (2200 mAh, 11.1v)?
Is this engine simply an on/off or does it have hi/lo power/flash modes?
I apologise now if I ask what seem like stupid questions, (a) I'm a noob, it's what we do and (b) the only stupid question is the one you don't ask :thinking:
Thanks in advance.

 

[BrianMc]

...converting a Niteflux VisionStick Halogen 10 to an LED emitter. Konalover posted this thread asking for guidance about building a light and BrianMc replied with several links, one of which was for the Cutter Electronics MCEQUICCpower light engine, which looks like it might well do the job for me.

Depends on the job. We''ll read on...

...a Niteflux VisionStick Halogen 10 about 2 years (old) ...light the way on my (mainly) rural commute to work...(but) ...either (a) my eyesight is (poor) or (b) claims from ...were a tad (off) or (c) both! I ... bought the unit direct from the manufacturer, but ... got stung by (duty)... which added up to nearly £90! Since I am...a skinflint and a womble, I decided to see what there was in the way of DIY solutions.

Warning. You may actually spend more to salvage/upgrade a light system than to sell it for a loss and start over. Second warning. Once you start teh process of reating holes in the dark is is habit forming. You can see how God might have gotten carried away and began all this. :laughing:

QUOTE=Crowmark;3542131]...Anyhoo, to business;
The halogen-driven guts of the light at present look like this:...

...My questions are, ...
Thanks in advance. [/QUOTE]


OK we should get this thread made a sticky to show other noobs how to lay out their situation and help posters help them.

:welcome:

The MCE is a bit floody and there are a number of narrow optics or reflectors taht tame that but they tend to be largish.

http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=Optics+for+MC-E

Flood versus throw is very dependent on how fast and where.

My road cycling rarely exceeds 30 mph (downhill wind behind), and 16-18 mph averages are now my norm. :sigh: Worse on really windy days.

Most cite a 10 degree spot as close to idea for the roadl. It worked well for a 90 lumen LED light (my first DIY) though it was not enough light for my dark roads either. My second low beam attemp has about 900 lumen in about a 20 degree beam. WAY too floody. My neighbors were almost driving into the ditch to get away from it. So I agree with the concensus that 10 no more than 15 degrees for a general light of a low beam and 5-8 degrees for a high beam or helmet light unless you ride really fast downhills and need a major thrower then maybe narrower 4 degrees.

Some of the lenses and reflectors on the Cutter sight have beamshots in this forum or on the MTBR-DIYlights forum.

Here the law enforcement is so glad to see a well lit bike I got no hassle from them, but you like to keep your neighbors happy. If you are too wide with the beam you are likely too high so lose a lot of light to the sky.

A successful mod or scratch built light needs to address the light's intended use by its intended user. That starts with deciding the beam your want plus or minus and the lenses or reflectors that will get you there with the LED you have in mind. If you can't get there with that LED, you either change the LED used or you need a custom lens or reflector (which, though I went that road on a light, it is NOT recommended for a Noob or most DIYers, actually).

I will let you guess on whether the lens you show matches one listed somewhere. At least you can get height, width, and with some work a guesstimate of the beam width (comparing your pics to posted beamshots).

Q1: My questions are, do the far more experienced amongst you think this will work OK?

Possibly. The more research you do before buying and building the more likely it will be the cat's meow.

Q2: Is this engine a fit-and-forget i.e. do I need anything else (on/off switch, lens and battery excepted) to produce a working light?

It apperas to have no modes (levels or flashing). You could e-mail to verify. An on off switch is nice but you can just unplug.

Q3: Will the standard Niteflux battery be man enough (2200 mAh, 11.1v)?

The 11.1 volt means it is a 3S (three series) LiPo pack, each of the three cells are likely 18650 2200 mAhr. Supposedly 2 years is not a bad life for LiPos. I assume under a harder work load than most commuters give them they live longer. Some report them still going strong 4 years and more. So it isn't age so much as how often it was fully discharged at or below 9 volts. If stored for months at a time, they are best kept at half charge and at 40* F. So stored at 2.7 volts or fully charged at 12.6 at sub freezing or above the stove in a kitchen will reduce longevity.

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampMC-E.pdf

Each die is 3.4 volts at a maximum of 700 mA. So the power needed is: (4 dies x 3.7 volts x 0.7 A x 1.15 driver factor (might be 1.1) = about 12 watts.

The pack is 2.2 A hr, nominal 11.1 V, max 12.6, so it stores 2.2 x 12.6 = almost 28 Whr new. Say 25 Whr at a 3 volt cutoff. 25 Whr/12 W = about 2 hours. If that is long enough for you either charging at both ends or just one, then the pack is fine capacity wise.

Does it have a fuel gauge? Does it cutoff automatically if it is too low? Does it have short circuit protection? Since the unit takes a range of batteries, and seems to have no button for programing, the light module does not monitor the battery. Your old light didn't either with that minimal circuit board, so I'd guess the pack is protected against shorts and overdischarging. Your manuals likely say.

The power requirements also relate to heat production. You must control the heat. You will need at the very least 12 square inches of body exposed to the air, preferably closer to 18 to be safe. Some have added helicopter or RC car motor heat sinks to get enough with some lights. You also need a good solid path with thermal paste or thermal epoxy between the parts to help.

Q4: Is this engine simply an on/off or does it have hi/lo power/flash modes?

Looks like no controls on the module. Email them for more info. Or maybe someone reading this has used it?

Cutter has this kit:

http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut947

and though the Recon unit they show does not allow level control there are versions that do. Whether they will upgrade to one that you can put a variable resistor on and change light output, I don't know. You can of course buy separate lens, MC-E board and a driver from Taskled, for example that will do modes and levels.

You'll be back with more questions. That is normal.

 

[Crowmark]

OK we should get this thread made a sticky to show other noobs how to lay out their situation and help posters help them.

I'm taking that to mean I laid it out well rather than badly, please disabuse me of the notion if I'm wrong!!

Depends on the job. We''ll read on...

My road cycling rarely exceeds 30 mph (downhill wind behind), and 16-18 mph averages are now my norm. :sigh: Worse on really windy days.

My average is 17-18 on a windy day, 20-23 still, odd bursts up to 30+mph with a tailwind :thumbsup:
Most of the time in the dark I can do 18-20mph, and over the rapidly deteriorating roads in the UK, the Enduro 8 just ain't cutting it for me :shakehead

Most cite a 10 degree spot as close to idea for the road.

I was hoping to get a fairly tight spot as the Enduro 8 has what it describes as a "wide-angle lens".

Some of the lenses and reflectors on the Cutter sight have beamshots in this forum or on the MTBR-DIYlights forum.

Ta! I'll have a look in a bit.

Here the law enforcement is so glad to see a well lit bike I got no hassle from them, but you like to keep your neighbors happy. If you are too wide with the beam you are likely too high so lose a lot of light to the sky.

I find this with the Enduro 8, the squirrels on my route must bloody hate me by now. I would love a low and wide, so I've got some spread for cornering but don't dazzle motorists and roosting birds!

A successful mod or scratch built light needs to address the light's intended use by its intended user. That starts with deciding the beam your want plus or minus and the lenses or reflectors that will get you there with the LED you have in mind. If you can't get there with that LED, you either change the LED used or you need a custom lens or reflector (which, though I went that road on a light, it is NOT recommended for a Noob or most DIYers, actually).

OK, I'll leave custom reflectors alone!!

It apperas to have no modes (levels or flashing). You could e-mail to verify. An on off switch is nice but you can just unplug.

My idea was to wire whatever I bought into the standard on/off switch so that I'd at least have the same controls as a standard one.

Q3: Will the standard Niteflux battery be man enough (2200 mAh, 11.1v)?

Does it have a fuel gauge?

No.

Does it cutoff automatically if it is too low?

Yes. It starts to warn you by momentarily switching the light off then on (less than a second off), increasing the frequency of said off/ons the more discharged it gets.

Does it have short circuit protection? Since the unit takes a range of batteries, and seems to have no button for programing, the light module does not monitor the battery. Your old light didn't either with that minimal circuit board, so I'd guess the pack is protected against shorts and overdischarging. Your manuals likely say.

According to this page, yes, it does have short-circuit protection, and goes on to say "NiteFlux charging is idiot-proof and hassle-free" which is great for me 'cos I hate hassle and I'm an, well, lets move on shall we

The power requirements also relate to heat production. You must control the heat. You will need at the very least 12 square inches of body exposed to the air, preferably closer to 18 to be safe. Some have added helicopter or RC car motor heat sinks to get enough with some lights. You also need a good solid path with thermal paste or thermal epoxy between the parts to help.

Again, the same page says about their thermal management, so I thought that replicating what they'd done would be a safe bet?

Cutter has this kit:

http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut947

and though the Recon unit they show does not allow level control there are versions that do. Whether they will upgrade to one that you can put a variable resistor on and change light output, I don't know. You can of course buy separate lens, MC-E board and a driver from Taskled, for example that will do modes and levels.

I did see that one, but saw the Lux outputs and didn't fancy it. Am I, as do many in the car tunign world, being dazzled by big numbers when it's not peak horsepower (staying with the car engines analogy) that maters, rather what you've talked about already i.e. beam pattern/spread, diffusion through the lens etc?

You'll be back with more questions. That is normal.

Yup!
On the Niteflux spares pagethey sell a narrow-focus lens but say not to use it with the Enduro 8, so I'd take that to mean my proposed hybrid too. I think I'll have to e-mail to ask why but that might be an easy, if possibly pricey, source for this part.
Thanks for the info so far, going away to think and follow the links.

 

[BrianMc]

I'm taking that to mean I laid it out well rather than badly, please disabuse me of the notion if I'm wrong!!.

A- Too many nice (but vague), Noobs, post: "I want to build a light, please help."

Not what you would call helping the helpers.

...Most of the time in the dark I can do 18-20mph, and over the rapidly deteriorating roads in the UK, the Enduro 8 just ain't cutting it for me :shakehead I was hoping to get a fairly tight spot as the Enduro 8 has what it describes as a "wide-angle lens". .

Yeah you need more throw down the road I'd suggest no more than 10 maybe 15 degrees FWHN beam if you can do that, especially if you are combining it with the Enduro.

(on a too wide beam wasted in the sky and sides) ....I find this with the Enduro 8, the squirrels on my route must bloody hate me by now. I would love a low and wide, so I've got some spread for cornering but don't dazzle motorists and roosting birds!.

I would much rather lose 10% in a lens than 20-30% going where I don't want it. Sounds like you understand that too well.

OK, I'll leave custom reflectors alone!

Very wise. Some discussed trying this in a thread and I haven't heard from them since.... :candle:

My idea was to wire whatever I bought into the standard on/off switch so that I'd at least have the same controls as a standard one. !

You willl be happier. Unless you are devoted to the concept of simpler is better and in line or on light power switch is a good thing. Yours being right there is a natural since at first glance it looks like you have room.

Q3: Will the standard Niteflux battery be man enough (2200 mAh, 11.1v)? (fuel gauge? No.

I assume 2 hours is OK?

Yes. It ...warn(s) you ...increasing the frequency of ...off/ons the more discharged it gets. (Yes. It has PCM protection)

It's a well designed and realtively safe to use pack. They'd have to be nuts not to include short protection with the rest. It also likely has balancing among its safely features since it can handle different or even multiple chargers.

Again, the same page says about their thermal management, so I thought that replicating what they'd done would be a safe bet?

Not necessarily. BUT they use the SAME body with their 12 watt light in OZ! You are considering one MCE and not three XP-G-R5's they used in the 12 (my guess given the output). So this should be fine.

Part of the heat management is electronic (like turning on an electric fan in a car) the light is dropped in power to keep it from getting too hot. Cutter's module likely has high temperature shut down too, but it doesn't say on the Cutter site's page.

I did see that one, but saw the Lux outputs and didn't fancy it. Am I, as do many in the car tunign world, being dazzled by big numbers when it's not peak horsepower (staying with the car engines analogy) that maters, rather what you've talked about already i.e. beam pattern/spread, diffusion through the lens etc?

OK Light is not linear. A 10% increase in lumens in the same light system is for all intent and purposes undetectable. Twenty percent shows up but is is a yawn. Forty-50% now you're getting somewhere. Double? Now that's what I'm talking about!

Then the optics. If you double the width of the FWHM (Full Width Half Maximum, the angle where the output is 50% of the peak which is usually dead center, you QUADRUPLE the area (close enough it depends a bit on how peaky the beam is) and quarter the average brightness. A bit like racing a low ratio rear end in a quarter mile, you multiply the torque like you condense the light into a narrower beam. (Analogy inexact.)

The 4 watt is about as bright as the eight (assuming the same time in the exposures but it is a narrower beam and very close to what you are looking for IMHO.

(More questions Yup!
On the Niteflux spares page they sell a narrow-focus lens but say not to use it with the Enduro 8, so I'd take that to mean my proposed hybrid too. I think I'll have to e-mail to ask why but that might be an easy, if possibly pricey, source for this part.
Thanks for the info so far, going away to think and follow the links.

I LOOKS to me to be the same lens as the 8 but not frosted. That suggests to me that with the LED they use in the 8 they are getting artifacts so use frosting to smooth things out but that also widens the beam. But the pictures may be deceiving and the narrow one simply does not fit over the 8 watt's LED.

"The Enduro 8 has a strong, wide beam very well suited for off-road riding or, spotting road-side creatures on high-speed descents."

8W and 540 lumens. BUT it's all spread out. I wonder if it is an underdriven P7 which has 4 dies and could give artifacts.

I hope others will point out if I have mislead you. Or if any have experinece with your light they will chime in. Hope this helps.

 

[Crowmark]

This is part of the reply I got from Niteflux, who responded extremely fast to my enquiries and answered them all throughly (thank you and well done Niteflux!! :twothumbs )

"The 8W LED has a 4-chip emitter. Any attempt to focus into a narrow beam with a single optic usually results in a silly looking cloverleaf pattern"

I am putting two and two together and assuming that the artefacts you mentioned are what is referred to above as the cloverleaf patterning? Bit of a bummer but hey, I suppose this is still progress from incandescent lamps :naughty:

 

[Crowmark]

OK, done a bit more looking and I have just found out that the Niteflux housing tapers in from 35-ish mm at the front to 30.5mm about 5mm fron the front egde, so for ease' sake, I think Cutter's MCEQUICCPower looks to be a good bet, as far as getting it to fit my standard housing. I'll have to trawl their list of 26.5mm optics as I should then be able to copy the Niteflux housing insert design to mount it all in.
Please don't watch this space, you'll be here for a looooooong time!!

 

[BrianMc]

This is part of the reply I got from Niteflux,...a single optic usually results in a silly looking cloverleaf pattern" .... assuming that the artefacts you mentioned are ...the cloverleaf patterning?

Yes. I suspect an SSC P7 which would be about that many lumens at that power usage.

Options: check out EL34's site on his Marwi mod with the P7 in this thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=220241

You might have to figure out how to hang part of the reflector out the front, though.

Ditto on extending out the front to accommodate different optics/reflectors for the MC-E module to get the narrower beam you need.

Good luck. and have fun.

 

[BrianMc]

After thinking about the die projection (cloverleaf), I thought you might like to know about this post in the design a road front beam thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2783954&postcount=43


Using an Aspheric lens tilted to throw the top dies of an MC-E LED:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3443718&postcount=310

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3240287&postcount=135

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3232490&postcount=105

I thought these might be of interest to you. He stuck the lens out front.

 

[Crowmark]

Right, having read throught the posts that BrianMc very kindly listed for me I've definitely decided to go fo the Cutter MCEQUICC light engine (this is my first project after all!) adn I think I'm going to try a Fraen 34.5mm reflector as i saw it suggested that this would give a better spot with a multi-chip emitter that a smaller diameter one. Niteflux themselves said that they didn't recommend fitting a spot optic to the Enduro 8 because it produced a beam pattern with artefacts. I't might be a total ****-up, in which case you might see me cursing and retro-fitting a Carclo or similar in an ali insert, but isn't trial and error part of the fun?

 

[BrianMc]

Taking your best aim and having a go is a lot of the fun. Looking forward to seeing your light when it is completed.