Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise & other tooling

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

I have gallons of the Vactra for the lathe and lightly coating the table was the first thing I did after cleaning the machine. I hit all the dovetails too. Good to know I should be be able to keep it reasonably new-like.

Despite your personal vises, Phil, you haven't lost your sense of humor!

 

[KC2IXE]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

My old Kurt 4" had a bunch of smallish dings in the top of the movable jaw. Been VERY VERY tempted to take it, and the fixed jaw off, bring them over to the surface grinder, and clean them up, like Kurt does on a rebuild. Thoughts?

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Been VERY VERY tempted to take it, and the fixed jaw off, bring them over to the surface grinder, and clean them up, like Kurt does on a rebuild.

That's exactly what I'd do.

 

[KC2IXE]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Well, first I have to get the surface grinder running, which at this point has been 2 years - too busy to just hook up the phase converter.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Email your address & I'll drive up with the trailer & get it out of your way

 

[KC2IXE]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Heh - No, just been busy, and haven't had that much need for one (well, I do, but). At least if you keep your eyes open around here, you can get small to mid sized manual surface grinders (aka no power feed) CHEAP - If I remember right I got mine for $400, WITH a radius dresser AND magnetic chuck - and I could have gotten a 9x12 for the same $$

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

How's this for rationalization. Bought D40 Kurt for $490 on Ebay. (Arrived and is gorgeous. Perfect size for table) Bought new Albrecht 1/32"-5/8", integral R8 from Amazon for $343. Saw new, identical Albrecht chuck on Ebay for $215 incl. shipping. Bought Ebay Albrecht, will return Amazon Albrecht for cost of shipping (about $15.00) so in the end, Kurt cost me $377.00.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

so in the end, Kurt cost me $377.00.

I like your convoluted logic

 

[StrikerDown]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

That works for me also!
Top quality tooling is such a joy to work with... With all of this really nice tooling when does the mill drill get upgraded!

Oh, did I say that?

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Top quality tooling is such a joy to work with...

+1 Ray.

I remember growing up with my dad out in the shop every night after work building electrical control panels ... and he didn't do it for fun. He had decent hand tools like Klein pliers & a Simpson meter but power tools were almost non existent in that tiny workspace - about 15' square IIRC. The bench grinder was shop built from scavenged parts & the drill press was similar. Back then Sears Craftsman tools were top of the line & still made in the USA - he encouraged me to buy one best quality Craftsman tool instead of a hand full of cheap tools. Eventually I acquired a good collection of hand tools & still use some of them today.

Not having much of anything when young really makes a person appreciate world class tools & tooling. Almost none of my machine tools were purchased new but each is the best that I could afford at the time. Same for tooling. It is a joy to crank down hard on the handle of a Kurt vise knowing that it will not slip & bloody your knuckles. Or to chuck up a freshly sharpened drill bit in an Albrecht & marvel at the precise German engineering. Not to mention working with anything Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, etc.

The sad part of cheap tools & especially cheap tooling is the damage they do. Once or twice every week someone brings in a high value item with a broken off drill or tap stuck firmly in the part. At least 5% of my annual income is generated from unscrewing someones screw up. If a person sees something on YouTube, no matter how difficult or complex, they feel that they can do it with the cheapest drill & tap available. God bless 'em, they pay a lot of bills.

 

[KC2IXE]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Never realized till today that Albrecht (USA) and Royal are in the same building - and I used to work a few blocks from there

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

http://www.google.com/patents/US1926760?dq=albrecht+chucks

 

[CMAG]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

looks just like the key less one in my tail stock, smooth

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Barry, saw your post of the good deals sticky Re: collet chucks. Is there a brand of R8 collet chuck that is along the quality lines of the Albrecht drill chuck? And what is a "good" brand?

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Will Q & I both have the Bison/TMX collet chuck set. Lately I've been buying ETM collets (made by Iscar) & I like the ETM's even better than Bison.

Size is up to you but ER-40 covers everything from about 1/4" to 1" ... good luck trying to tighten down on any tiny shank in an ER-40 collet. Better to use an ER-16 extension & run it in the ER-40 collet, something I do whenever I mill titanium trit slots.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Here's an interesting bit of somewhat hard to find info ... some companies like ETM make only metric sized collets but the catalog companies like Enco list them in English units

Other companies like Lyndex (sold by McMaster) make both metric & English. Does it really matter as the ER collets all have a range of collapse of 1mm ... YES it does.

A collet sized 3/8" has a range from .344" - .375". Slide any 3/8" tool into that collet & it fits like a glove.

A collet sized 10mm has a range from .354" - .393". A 3/8" shank rattles around like a bucket of bolts, although you can tighten the collet up enough to close down on the shank.

The collet that has a sliding fit is the best choice. TIR is lower & breakaway torque is higher. No matter which collet set you purchase be sure to remember that most sets are metric, even if marked in fractional inches. If a shank drops through a collet be careful - for light cuts that aren't critical you may do fine. Push a 3/8" twist drill hard into 4140HT, using a 10mm collet, and you may see what I witnessed - drill stops & spindle keeps spinning. Scored the crap out of the drill shank & into the trash it went. Left the same score marks inside the collet so that one went to the trash as well. Had I been smart a 3/8" collet would have been purchased sooner than later.

Is there a brand of R8 collet chuck that is along the quality lines of the Albrecht drill chuck? And what is a "good" brand?

The Bison collet chuck is well made. I've not seen an ETM collet chuck but their collets compare well with Bison, perhaps a little nicer. For "Albrecht quality" the most beautifully machined collets are Lyndex from Japan. Mirror finished inside & out, super low TIR, so nice to look at that you almost hate to use them.

I've never seen the Royal Ultra Precision ER collets but expect them to be similar to Royal live centers - world class. Techniks collets get good reviews on most machining forums & would be worth a look.

 

[darkzero]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Techniks collets get good reviews on most machining forums & would be worth a look.

Any thoughts on these? They're pricey though!

Focus on workholding

How you hold a part in place is often just as important as how it is cut

Any well thought out manufacturing operation requires careful consideration of the process, the cutting tools and the workholding. The latter is often overlooked. Not paying attention to workholding is like building a house with a weak foundation. Just like building a strong foundation has inherent benefits, choosing the best workholding solutions can pay dividends today and for many years to come.

Numerous factors go into determining the best workholding solution. These include material being cut, critical tolerance requirements, work-piece shape and dimensions, capabilities of your equipment and how frequently change-overs are implemented.

When you reduce set-up time for workholding, you are taking a critical step in increasing productivity. Innovations that cut set-up and change-over times plus increase flexibility while adding precision and rigidity are clearly sought after and have real value. An argument can be made that workholding and fixturing devices will also help shops by reducing inventories. This is because the shop is able to produce parts in the efficient batches that customers seek and when customers need them.

As parts become more complex, fixturing devices that are modular, flexible and variable take on more importance. Being able to reposition the part on the fixture faces in different set-ups saves time and money.

Workholding solutions are available to make your job easier and more efficient and include:

• Tool holders
• Quick change tools
• Rotary Tables
• Clamping
• Indexers, Sliders, Grippers, Conveyers, Robotic Tooling, Remote Handling
• Vises

Manufacturers have responded to these needs with truly innovative solutions. These solutions can be quite complex or remarkably simple. An example of a simple, inexpensive and important solution is found in the DNA (Dead Nuts Collet) from Travers partner Techniks.

"SET-TRU" DNA Collets are the best way to hold tools 6mm and smaller! For consistent T.I.R. of 0.0002" or better, and improved tool life use DNA collets and nuts. Extend tool life & reduce costs High rigidity & high holding power Best for 6mm or smaller tool

DNA Collet (left) works with standard ER tool holders ER collets 6mm and smaller allow 40% of the collet to extend out of the collet pocket. This means 40% pf the jaw surface area does not properly collapse on the tool shank because they are unsupported by the wall of the pocket. DNA Collet collets put more metal on the tool shank! Samll size ER collets have a large counterbore in the I.D. at the bottom; (see illustration) that greatly reduces the amount of metal holding the shank of the tool. DNA collets have twice as much metal gripping the tool shank "in the pocket" where maximum holding power is generated as the collet nut is tightened.

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

ER collets 6mm and smaller allow 40% of the collet to extend out of the collet pocket. This means 40% of the jaw surface area does not properly collapse on the tool shank because they are unsupported by the wall of the pocket.

Maybe sort of ... until they publish side by side comparisons with breakaway torque numbers there's no way to tell. If your setup requires a great deal of tool stick out like those in their images it might make a difference. When I set up for trit slots in Ti here's exactly how it looks:

Wide view:

Detail view:

The tool is an SGS four flute with AlTiN coating, .0625" diameter with a .125" shank. It could be moved back into the collet another 3mm or so but this stick out works really well. Normal DOC is 6.5% of diameter (0.1mm) & feed is right out of Machinery's Handbook. Since the tool is never run aggressively there's no concern about spinning the tool in the collet. It helps that the shank is .125" and the collet bore is (best guess) .12475" - the most perfectly smooth sliding fit that anyone could want.

Here's where you'll get into trouble & break the tips off the tool ... most 1.5mm/2.0mm/2.5mm metric end mills are made with a 3mm shank. 3mm = .118" so it's tempting to plop the metric shank into the inch collet. In a genuine emergency (middle of the night on the weekend) it will work for a slot or two. Examine the tips of the tool under 10x magnification & chances are nearly 100% that some or all of the teeth are chipped. Toss that tool in the trash, load in a fresh tool & keep on working. The most I've ever burned through was four & the customer knew that the tooling cost was being added to the bill. There was one spare tool left on the shelf when it was all over.

Detail view of Lyndex collet:

Pretty enough that it would look good on a gold neck chain

The need for the extended collet is pretty clear in this image. Not a lot of room around the vise jaws.

Probably some members are thinking "Isn't there a lot of runout or flex with that overhang". This image shows mirror finished walls that indicate TIR is well under .0005"

The rest of the head is shown here:

 

[precisionworks]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

About 10 days ago I ordered an ER-16 3mm Royal Precision collet for $19. Back ordered & was going to ship next week. This morning an eBay search found a Techniks Super Precision collet for $12.50 delivered Cancelled the Amazon order & put the 3mm collet in the shopping cart.

Been wanting to get a dedicated 1" ER-40 collet to use with the 1" ER-16 extension but the ETM's run about $36. Found a Techniks 1" on the same site for $17.95 delivered & got that one too. (Amazon also sells Techniks but through Travers Tool & that adds $8 shipping.) Great selection & excellent prices: http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply

 

[BVH]

Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise

Looks like a great source for economical to expensive tooling! Thanks for the link Barry!