Patents - High Power LED heatsinking

LightBright · Mar 25, 2003

If this guy gets this idea patented, all flashlight Modder people may be subject to being chased by his lawyers! Search on www.uspto.gov under # 20020141197. It's still in "application" mode, submitted March 29th 2001. If I'm wrong to worry, let me know!!! Every Luxeon - type flashlight needs this type of heatsinking to work properly.

georges80 · Mar 25, 2003

I would assume that Lumileds (if not other LED manufacturers) has some prior art in this case and it would be hard to believe they don't have patents either granted or in application themselves.

Hmm patenting a heatsink - what a sorry state of affairs...

LEDmodMan · Mar 25, 2003

Hmm... Assuming he did get this patent, this is only a problem for people who would be selling something like this. It wouldn't stop us modders from building something like this for our own personal use. I wonder if Mr. James T. Petroski is a registered user here? He seems to be "in the know" about this, but I wonder if we could show previous usage of this idea anywhere here on CPF? I'm sure LumiLEDs was working on this concept previous to 3/29/01.

Wylie, any input?

---edit---
So far, I can't find anything about this previous to 11/01... Still looking though.

FreeBSDboy · Mar 25, 2003

I can see the value in patenting a novel heatsink design. But this person is trying to pattent a round circle of metal. That is just plain stupid. I'll use as many round circles of metal as I damn well please.

Brotherscrim · Mar 25, 2003

If I'm not mistaken, it's up to the patent holder to defend his or her patents, so assuming he does get the patent, he'd still have to defend it.

Wylie · Mar 25, 2003

Brotherscrim
That's true and it is not a cheap, easy or quick process. Just the arbitration is in the neighborhood of 25K if I am correct. I have tried to look into this patent that has been posted and can find nothing for some reason. I would think the patent would have been awarded by now but that does not mean that it was posted on the Patent Offices website.
LightBright, to know the application number for the filing is another issue all together?

LEDmodMan · Mar 25, 2003

Here's a link directly to the patent application.

Jonathan · Mar 25, 2003

I've not read through all of the claims, but the first independent claim appears to exactly describe a Luxeon LED.

The earliest Luxeon press release that I can find (http://www.eur.lighting.philips.com/int_en/prof/about/press/professional/lumileds2.html) is dated 26 February 2001, which predates the filing of the patent. This would make it a very hard patent to prosecute, since you would need to show that the concept was invented prior to the filing date of the patent, and prior to Lumileds coming up with the idea.

-Jon

Wylie · Mar 25, 2003

LEDmodMan
I have taken a look and cannot find anything. I'll have to go back to the patent office and look for heatsink but with computers it could take some time. Be right back!
EDIT: Thanks for the link.
It looks as though he may have got himself in hot water already but I am only guessing. With a filing date as far back as this one is I am surprised the patent has not been awarded. 12 to 18 months is the norm from what I hear and seeing that he does not have a patent number makes me think he is either in court or the patent number is being held up because of previuos art as it is called.

LEDmodMan · Mar 25, 2003

Re: Patents - High Power LED heatsinking *DELETED*

Wylie,
Doesn't the link I put up work for you?

ufokillerz · Mar 25, 2003

this guys first defense of this patent will probably come from lumileds since it was lumileds that first released a led that required heatsinking.

LightBright · Mar 25, 2003

The link worked for me, I'm using the latest version of Internet Explorer ver 6.0....etc

I believe the inventor only has to defend the use of a high power LED in a Flashlight, not just heatsinking LED's in general.

This could affect any Modder/Manufacturer that sells Luxeon based lights, like Mr. Bulk, Electrolumens, McLux, etc etc.

The patent will not be awarded if anybody can prove they had a document, picture, drawing, prototype, letter or email about this subject BEFORE March 29, 2001. And there are other ways too I think. Do we have any Patent Lawyer flashaholics?

GJW · Mar 25, 2003

[ QUOTE ]
LEDmodMan said:
Hmm... Assuming he did get this patent, this is only a problem for people who would be selling something like this. It wouldn't stop us modders from building something like this for our own personal use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite true.
A very similar circumstance happened in the yo-yo world when websites were hosting instructions on a particular yo-yo mod.
The patent holder went after the people posting the instructions (who hadn't made a dime) and the websites themselves.
The alledged violation was something like contributory infringement.
Right or wrong, having to try and defend yourself can cost you some bucks.

Wylie · Mar 25, 2003

If Lumiled posted anything in the way of use of a heatsink with the product they build I would think this patent will never be awarded. From reading the patent it looks like the typical attorneys run at a catch all patent to me. I am not an attorney but I think this guy was beat before he got started.

UK Owl · Mar 25, 2003

I aint looked at the link yet, but I do know this about patents :

1) You can not patent something that is in the public domain, so if others have already made available details for this item then a patent can not be granted.

2) You have to make an exact duplicate to infringe patent, a different body shape, or tweak of the electronics circuit thus makes a new product. That is why companies such as Dysan have several thousand patents, literally one for each component of the finished product.

LEDmodMan · Mar 25, 2003

After a little of my own looking, I don't think we're in any real trouble here. I would be very suprised if this patent was awarded anyway...

GJW · Mar 25, 2003

[ QUOTE ]
UK Owl said:
I aint looked at the link yet, but I do know this about patents :

1) You can not patent something that is in the public domain, so if others have already made available details for this item then a patent can not be granted.

2) You have to make an exact duplicate to infringe patent, a different body shape, or tweak of the electronics circuit thus makes a new product. That is why companies such as Dysan have several thousand patents, literally one for each component of the finished product.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe its different in the UK but in the US, you can take an already invented item, public domain or not, and as long as you use it in a new way -- it CAN be patented.

Your second point might be technically correct but it will still cost you thousands to prove.

Wylie · Mar 25, 2003

Also there are design patents and utility patents which different so called laws are apply to. If anyone would like to dig into this they are welcome to. The differences between Utility and Design Patents
This is the best I have found to explain the misunderstanding some people have with public domains. It is down the page a little ways under The Invention Must be a New or Novel Idea.You have a year to file!

Wylie · Mar 25, 2003

Looks like I just backed myself on this post! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

GJW · Mar 25, 2003

Great references Wylie.

This line in particular should be noted:
"Of course, often times, in such actions, the party being sued may challenge the validity of the patent, whether it is a "novel invention," etc., and that must be decided by the court."

The patent doesn't just die because you claim it's invalid.
You need to put up the bucks and PROVE it's invalid.

Patents - High Power LED heatsinking

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