Performance Viewpoint/Marwi halogen-to-LED conversion (UPDATED)

cityevader

Enlightened
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
302
Location
San Jose, CA
Hello, my name is Cityevader, and I'm a flashaholic.
First post here, and I'm having issues in deciding what to do with my 12 year old Performance Viewpoint/Marwi dual headlamps with 5ah 6v SLA with mr11 bulbs. I used to be happy with the 6w flood and 12w spot, although runtime was short. I'm finally down to my last bulb (the 6w 30° beam) and every replacement I've tried is terribly dim and orange as if they're 12v running on 6. The new 10W bulbs are easily half as bright as the 6!!! All I can think of is that the originals were overvolted 5v??? I was really close to getting a ginormous 12v SLA and some 12v car foglights (with more easily modified mr16 bulbs), but I'm cheap cheap cheap. I'll spend hours and days whittling on something to do it homemade and cheaper...so I'm keeping the 6v SLA and charger.

Now the allure of LEDs is calling, but all I read is that mr11's are too difficult for LED's due to heat transfer lacking. And there are slim to no kits except Cutter's $75 one...gulp! So I made some cups from copper end caps. Scribed a perfectly straight line at required depth from bottom, and soldered on a loop of 12ga copper wire to act as a lip for mounting (like the mr11) and then soldered on a layer of stranded wire (to take up the gap between cup and housing) and chucked it up in a drill and slowly filed it down until it tighly squeezed into the lamp housing, giving a good 3/8" contact patch that will be slathered in thermal grease.

Now is where you guys and gals come in...deciding/designing of the LED system. A P7 would be nice, but I don't need ultra super bright. Since there are two lamps, I'm thinking a pair Cree XRE Q5 at about 750mA might be what I'm after, although I've never experienced these before. Each lamp will be on it's own switch. One wide beam, one spot.

The cups are limited in depth to 15mm for star emitter and lens. An L2 lens holder from ledsupply is about 13mm and has multiple lens patterns that I would love to try.

Q's:
How tall is the star portion that the lens sits on?

Would the XRE's have adequate output at 750mA (to keep heat down)? Or 1000ma for a mild increase in output? and would these be similar to combined 6W plus 12W halogens together? similar=fine, more=great, but notably less=bad

Information overload doing research...so I really need help with driver selection for use with 6v SLA battery. Likely a driver for each bulb since I want them on/off separately and using stock switches. Ideas?


Edited with pics. It's vastly easier to cut the cup to length first. Scribe a line as shown in mock up pic, keeping blade still and spinning the cup, then cut it carfully with saw/grinder/file/appropriate tool. Then use a smaller diameter pipe (3/4") to wrap some solid wire around to form the rings. Solder the rings on first, then wrap with wire (mock up pic) and solder that second.


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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Q's:
How tall is the star portion that the lens sits on?
About 2mm, depending on the star you choose.

Would the XRE's have adequate output at 750mA (to keep heat down)? Or 1000ma for a mild increase in output?
It depends on the runtime you want from your battery and the capability of your assembly to shed heat. In general, more light is better :D

Cree XRE Q5 at 750 to 1000mA … and would these be similar to combined 6W plus 12W halogens together? similar=fine, more=great, but notably less=bad
No. I Have a lamp with two CREE R2's (my Double Barrel CREE R2). The light from that is less than the light from my Magicshine MJ-808 (P7).

Compare:
7..8 Watt Halogen (Sigma Mirage EVO 6V/ 5 Watt Halogen overvolted at 8V)
dscf0006small.jpg

…to a singe CREE Q5:
dscf0004small.jpg

…and to a singe P7 (My magicshine, combined with the CREE Q5 above)
dscf0002small.jpg


Information overload doing research...so I really need help with driver selection for use with 6v SLA battery. Likely a driver for each bulb since I want them on/off separately and using stock switches. Ideas?
If you want to use cheap flashlight drivers, one driver per LED is the way to go. Did that with my Double Barrel CREE R2 also.
 
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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

hmmmm...

I've thought long and hard on the Magicshine. A bit borderline on their quality from what i've read. But would be nice to open box and play!

Also, my sporadic use and poor charging habits lend themselves more toward SLAs than the 18650s.

Time to refocus my search for P7, especially reflector parts to keep the whole thing at 15mm tall.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

I stumbled on the Hoffmanamp "kit" during my recent preoccupation of searching the net for info. That's where I stole the idea for a copper cup that'll contact more of the housing. His are vastly superior of course, and utilize the tapered volume area where mine won't. But it's hard to spend $50 for only the reflector and led mount and still need driver(s) and led(s), but at least when it's done I'll have two lamps, compared to a magicshine's single, so maybe I'll put one on each bike.

There is just so many things to know that a rookie is easily overwhelmed. And information is geared towards people that already know. I spent all afternoon trying to find out what kind of driver would works with a 6v sla and a single p7. I know I need a "buck" now, and that there needs to be a certain voltage higher then Vin, but very few sites fully describe products. And then I'll have a second lamp, so series or parallel or both on or independent on and the possibilities escalate...plus the fact that there are few reflectors for p7's, much less shallow ones.

This will end up being an entire winter project that will finish after daylight saving time and nights are later!

Maybe I should go to an eight pound 9AH 12V SLA and charger and a single 35W mr16 fog light....if nothing else, the only thing I'd have to think about is whether to spend the money or not, rather than how to design it.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

I Would not give up that easily. I Think you have made a good start with the pipe-cap.

You could for example use a Ledil square optic from cutter for example: "CMC Lens for MC-E".
crsu.jpg

Datasheet

They have a height of 13mm. Use a single P7 emitter and glue it directly to your pipe cap instead of using a MCPCB.

This simple driver would work for an MC-E/P7 and a 6 Volt battery: Regulated CV/CC LED Driver Circuit Board for Cree MC-E/SSC P7 Emitters (8.4V Max Input).

sku203301e.jpg

Glue it to he opposite side of the pipe cap bottom.


I have no personal experience with this setup, and I'm sure it is not ideal, but it is just an example.
 
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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Thank you for the encouragement, I need it!

You mentioned the ledil optics, but they are for MCEs...are the P7s dimensionally similar enough to share optics/holders etc? If so, i've passed up lots of stuff and would have to start search all over again. My wife already can't understand why I spend so much time on the computer instead of buying a light!

But I'm very keen on those those lens holders with different optics so that I can have one on spot and one on oval shape.

Another design parameter. I haven't ridden off road at speed at night for a looong time, now it's primarily on the tandem on road and "trail" (paved bike path), with monthly rides with hundreds/thousands of folks throughout San Jose (sjbikeparty.org). So absolute lumen output isn't the goal above all else. A runtime minimum of 3 hours, preferably 4 to allow for trouble is desired, but those are worst case max run times I likely won't ever use up completely... That being said, I imagine a lower current driver with both lights in series might be the most efficient setup? (I have no idea how long a 5ah 6v sla would take to get to minimum voltage during use, and what that minimum voltage actually is).
So then I'd need a boost driver at that point right? Two drivers pulling 2.8a would drain my battery in an hour or less!
Would two P7s in series at, say, 1400ma be equivalent to my prior 18W of halogen? If so, that would double my runtime for same light output!
While buck drivers need a certain voltage above Vf, do boost drivers need a similar "voltage below Vf"?
 
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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Also, my sporadic use and poor charging habits lend themselves more toward SLAs than the 18650s.
Today's sophisticated charging circuits and protection circuits do a good job of keeping Li-ion cells happy despite any user neglect. I recommend you to take a second look at Li-ion batteries. SLA's are, IMO, the heavy dinosaurs of the battery world that should be allowed to go extinct. Li-ion is more powerful, more cold resistant, VASTLY lighter, and only a few dollars more in the battery sizes we need. E.G. a 6 cell 18650 battery wired in 3S2P config will cost about $30 and have similar performance to a 12V 5AH SLA.

You mentioned the ledil optics, but they are for MCEs...are the P7s dimensionally similar enough to share optics/holders etc?
The MCE and P7 are very different physically, so generally you need to buy an optic specifically made for the LED.

Two drivers pulling 2.8a would drain my battery in an hour or less!
The drivers don't pull 2.8A from the battery. That 2.8A goes to the LED, at a forward voltage of about 3.6V. The actual battery current is much less thanks to the buck converter. Assuming a 12V battery powering a single P7 at full power, and a 90% converter efficiency, the battery current will be about 930mA.

Would two P7s in series at, say, 1400ma be equivalent to my prior 18W of halogen? If so, that would double my runtime for same light output!
Two P7's at 50% power (2 X 1400mA) will put out about 800 lumens. A single 20W halogen at nominal voltage (not overvolted) will produce about 300 lumens.

While buck drivers need a certain voltage above Vf, do boost drivers need a similar "voltage below Vf"?
There are many strategies for boosting voltage, so you should always refer to the manufacturer datasheets for specific limitations. However, generally speaking, most boost converters I have used will let you have a battery voltage that is as high as the LED voltage, or even slightly greater by about 0.5V or so.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Thank you DanU, great info there.

So drivers are similar to welders, 80 amp welder in a 20 amp recepticle, the 80 amps at the tip is at a lower voltage than the wall socket.

As for 18650s, everyone raves over them for a reason, no? I saw high capacity ones at DX for cheap....but I'm still drawn to the idea of bare minimal parts to purchase and re-use as much as I can.... however, it would be a good idea to start with a good base of battery arrangement to build off of, since I have 3 other bikes I'd like to add lights to, and interchangeable battery/charger/lamps would be ideal.

I'm excited to order a bunch of parts, but I'm just barely recuperating from November's money shortage. But hey, the research and design is a huge chunk of the fun for me anyway.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

The MCE and P7 are very different physically, so generally you need to buy an optic specifically made for the LED.
If you use an MC-E, it is more difficult to just solder wires to the LED. If you use an MC-E, use one mounted on a star.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Thanks Pe2er, I'm starting to think I may just go with the MCE since there's a million products for it. I woke up early this morning, and instead of forcing sleep, I jumped on the computer to search and search for P7 reflectors, and there's ridiculously few out there. I managed to find out about Ledil Boom reflectors, but not where to actually get them.
At the moment, nothing fits my space of 15mm deep, 27mm wide for emitter/reflector.

Time to research the MCEs.

Edited....I did just find some Booms on Photonfanatics site....
Edited again...certainly NOT millions for MCEs...few indeed....musta been thinking XREs.
 
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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

Dont bother with the ledil boom's they will end up in the same place as mine.. in a box unused.. they are way to floody!
P7 with a sekonix optic http://www.sekonix.com/upload/p7-1.pdf
MCE with a ledil iris http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_Iris_MCE.pdf
Fraen narrow reflector FRC-N1-MCE-0R http://www.fraensrl.com/images/Fraen-FRC-MCE-datasheet.pdf

Beam shots of the sekonix and fraen reflector but for a P7
http://www.chirio.com/led_seoul_p7_bikeled_3.htm

As you only have 27mm width of space i dont think the P7 or MCE will work for you. Your better of with the XP-G as yo can use smaller optics.
 
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Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

They have a height of 13mm. Use a single P7 emitter and glue it directly to your pipe cap instead of using a MCPCB.

With the bare emitter AA'd directly to pipe cap, what would be recommended for wire attachment protection. The electrodes out the side seem fragile, so what would I use to insulate them from shorting on the cap as well as mechanically attach them to prevent movement and breakage (while wiring etc), that would also not interfere with reflector mounting?

I think I've decided on these reflectors, http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_Boom.pdf one spot and one medium.
Flood is equally important to throw, maybe more? In fact, I'm wanting to devise some side-throwing lamps as well. My wife is deaf. Her sole sensory input to the world is sight. When it's dark she has no idea what is going on around her. That's why she prefers the tandem at night because she trusts my riding her through it. So if I can get some floody side-firing lights, that would help her a lot too. But for now, I'm concentrating on the headlamps.
 
Re: Viewpoint LED conversion

hmm...here at my shop (Ford) we have a grey silicone that is not only super strong, but is quite stiff as well. I guess that could work well enough. I'm picturing rough handling during soldering/routing/installing process.
 
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