Pila IBC - Charging to 4.11-4.12 - Thoughts?

[dmanindfw]

I recently made the (huge) jump to an MG flashlight using 18650's and decided to be as safe as possible by going with a Pila IBC charger and AW's 18650 -2600 mAh protected cells. Quite an impressive flashlight running a single cell...I'm hooked :)

Anyhow, after getting all my items in this past weekend, I went ahead and charged the 2 18650s in the Pila charger. When the green light (charge complete) came on I removed both cells and tested using a DMM. One cell measured 4.12v, the other 4.11v. Granted this was an el cheapo DMM from Harbour Freight but it is brand new so I assume the batteries are up to par in it. Unfortunately I do not have a second DMM to verify the charge.

So the questions I have are:
1) Should I have any concerns that I am only getting 4.11-4.12v on these brand new cells?
2) Is there enough reason here to contact Pila USA?
3) Should I attempt to exchange this charger out for one that POSSIBLY charges closer to 4.2v?
4) Any other ideas/thoughts? What would YOU do?
5) Other than not getting 100% capacity are there any other concerns about not getting the maximum amount of runtime out of these cells?

I see from reading different threads here that almost all are getting 4.17 to 4.2v by using a Pila IBC with 18650s although there are a couple of instances of people not getting 4.2v or close. What did you do if anything if you were one of these people?

I should also say that while I am a bit disappointed that I am evidently not getting a full charge especially for the price paid for this (relatively) high quality charger, I would prefer to err on the side of conservative rather than push the limits (by overcharging).

 

[Kestrel]

First thing, :welcome:
Second thing, it's obvious that you've picked up quite a bit of info by searching prior to your very first post, which is a big :twothumbs and very much appreciated.

My general recollection is that if LiIons are only charged to ~4.1v, you are not getting the last ~ 10% of the total capacity, but you are potentially ?doubling? the usable service life of your cells, especially if they would have been sitting at ~4.2v for extended lengths of time. I'm writing based on my recollection here, so someone else may post in with more accurate estimates, but this is at least the general situation.

I recall reading in an earlier thead that small cells such as RCR123's tend to terminate at a slightly different voltage than the larger cells such as the 18650's (due to the way that the charger algorithm works). However, I cannot recall which was which, perhaps your charger might terminate at ~4.17v or so with the smaller cells???? I do not know, but I do recall that there is some sort of relationship between charge termination voltages and cell capacity.

I haven't yet measured the cells voltage coming out of my Pila IBC, but I would be very very pleased if I was obtaining voltages such as 4.11v to 4.12v that you are getting - I don't need every last minute of potential runtime, but I would love the greatly extended cell lifetimes from a slightly lower-than-spec voltages such as you are getting.

Enjoy your Pila, :thumbsup:
K

 

[LED_Thrift]

What he said. You'll get longer useful life out of cells by not charging them to 4.2v.
If I recall correctly, the cells may also charge to a higher voltage after a few cycles. Check them again after five or ten cycles.

 

[Elliot]

dmanindfw: If you've got a few name brand primaries AA, 123 etc. Maybe somebody can give you a reading from their DMM so you have an idea what yours should read. You can then use that as a percent adjustment.

ex. Your new Duracells AA's reads 1.35v while my superaccurate DMM reads on my new Duracells at 1.38 - then you would add 2 percent to your voltage readings. Not the best solution, but workable.

Many DMM's have an adjustment screw type thingy that might be noticable when you open the case to change the battery. But, waiting for a few more charge cycles is good advice.

 

[dmanindfw]

All,

Thanks for your input and advice. I will run a few cycles through them to see what happens.

Funny how Kestrel actually welcomed me here...I've been lurking for quite awhile now, reading, and reading, AND reading. I feel like I have been a long time member. There is a whole lot of information here and some extremely great posts about Lithium Ion batteries and safety. When I first started reading about the possible dangers, I almost decided not to move forward...sure glad I didn't scare off too easy. I could not be any happier with my decisions...other than my (minor) concerns with the Pila charger.

Now I have all of you to thank for my new addiction and corresponding dent in my check book :)

 

[mdocod]

As others have said, charging to ~4.10V is in many ways preferable, I wouldn't fret over it too much. If you have a chance to test the voltage using a different DMM someday that would be very useful as you might be able to determine if your DMM is actually the cause of the lower reading rather than the charger itself.

 

[Greg G]

For what it's worth.....my new Pila charger that just came in today terminates at 4.24, a tick over what a couple of WF-139's I've owned did.

Edit: Correction to this post in down below in #19 and #22. I had a low battery in my DMM. Pila terminates at 4.08, and 139 at 4.2.

 

[Meterman]

The UK seller of my Pila charger wrote this concerning the voltage:

All the Pila chargers that we have received from our supplier cut off at between 4.13 and 4.15
volts, presumably as an extra margin of safety.

Mine delivers 4.15/4.16V.


Wulf

 

[mdocod]

For what it's worth.....my new Pila charger that just came in today terminates at 4.24, a tick over what a couple of WF-139's I've owned did.

While that is technically in range, I would be tempted to try to exchange or return that unit and try to get a different IBC.

-Eric

 

[Greg G]

Maybe. I want to check with a couple other DMM's first.

Using my DMM as a *comparator*, the Pila I just received is a little on the high end.

 

[Lite_me]

I've seen my Pila IBC terminate between 4.14-4.20v depending on the battery and battery type. I do 18650s, 14500s and 16340s in it.

 

[Kestrel]

I recall reading in an earlier thead that small cells such as RCR123's tend to terminate at a slightly different voltage than the larger cells such as the 18650's (due to the way that the charger algorithm works). However, I cannot recall which was which, perhaps your charger might terminate at ~4.17v or so with the smaller cells???? I do not know, but I do recall that there is some sort of relationship between charge termination voltages and cell capacity.

I've seen my Pila IBC terminate between 4.14-4.20v depending on the battery and battery type. I do 18650s, 14500s and 16340s in it.

What was the relationship between cell capacity and voltage termination again? Do your 16340's terminate higher or lower than your 18650's? - I couldn't recall from my past reading.

 

[Lite_me]

What was the relationship between cell capacity and voltage termination again? Do your 16340's terminate higher or lower than your 18650's? - I couldn't recall from my past reading.

My 18650s tend to be the highest in termination voltage, the 16340s the lowest.

 

[Vesper]

Which MG light are you powering BTW? I have the RX-1 and have been wondering how well a 18650 2600 cell would work in it. Thanks.

 

[Henk_Lu]

For what it's worth.....my new Pila charger that just came in today terminates at 4.24, a tick over what a couple of WF-139's I've owned did.

I'm still waiting for my Pila and I surely hope it doesn't go up to that level.

By now I have a DSD and two WF-139 and all my cells are between 4,10 and 4,18 depending on the cell size. Today I charged RCR123 and IMR 16340, all were 4,13 - 4,14 Volt.

How exact is a DMM? Mine has 20 years, can I still trust it?

 

[OneBigDay]

As others have said, charging to ~4.10V is in many ways preferable, I wouldn't fret over it too much. If you have a chance to test the voltage using a different DMM someday that would be very useful as you might be able to determine if your DMM is actually the cause of the lower reading rather than the charger itself.

I tend to think this way as well. Borrow a friend/family DMM and test fresh charges with a couple different meters. This should tell you pretty quickly if it's DMM variance rather than charger termination point. My first bet would be on DMM variance.

FWIW I have few week old Pila charger and have charged 3 different brands and 2 diff sizes of Lithium batteries. They all come off the charger EXACTLY the same every time - 4.03 if the DMM is on 6V top, and 4.13 if the DMM is on 9V top end. I have not been worried that these numbers are low because my meter is cheap, and since they are exactly the same numbers every time - this tells me the chargers termination is consistent, which is good.

My next step (and I think dmanindfw too) is to do this with a couple different meters. If multiple meters tell me I'm only charging to 4.03 then we have another issue (with the charger) - but I am expecting that will not be the case.

 

[Rexlion]

The nice thing is, at least the MG is regulated so it will be just as bright as it should be, even though for a bit shorter runtime. Assuming your meter is correct, of course.

I guess if the Pila really is undercharging and keeps doing so, and you want more runtime, you may have to break down and buy a really good charger, like the Trustfire TR-001 ... wait guys :eeksign: :whoopin: wait, I was only kidding! :grin2:

 

[dmanindfw]

Which MG light are you powering BTW? I have the RX-1 and have been wondering how well a 18650 2600 cell would work in it. Thanks.

Hi Vesper,

I bought the MG PLI light from shiningbeam.com. Absolutely love it, but really don't have anything to compare it too as this is my first REAL flashlight. I have had a few Maglites, a Streamlight Twintask, but that's been about it.

Not sure if the RX-1 has the same electronics inside but I think so. The AW 18650 2600 seems to power my PLI great but I don't think that is what you are looking for.

BTW, I am looking for a light that can complement my PLI but is more of a thrower. The RX-1 looks to be a good thrower AND a great value but I haven't seen these on shiningbeams website recently. Are these still being made?

 

[Greg G]

Update on my measurements. I couldn't find my other DMM, but I charged two 186650's tonight (same ones as earlier in the thread). I checked them before, and they showed 4.4x. I knew something was weird with the DMM. I went ahead and charged the batts in the Pila charger, and they read 4.5x afterwards.

I then noticed that the low battery icon of the DMM was on. Changed the battery out with a new one, and one battery measured 4.07, and the other one 4.08.

I'll definitely check this DMM against a known good DMM next week. There's an electronics store near me that stocks Fluke tools. I'll go there and use a demo model.

I just wanted to post this up to correct my false voltage readings from earlier in the thread.

Now I need to charge two batteries on my 139 and compare them against the Pila again. The 139 measurements I posted above were not done on the same day as the Pila measurements. It could be my DMM increasingly erred as its battery died.

 

[Phaserburn]

My IBC charges to 4.1-4.14V all the time, always has.