Police Study of tactical use of Strobe

[kj2]

You really don't wanna mess with cops these days

 

[Grizzlyb]

You really don't wanna mess with cops these days

Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .

 

[jaycyu]

lol, that's an amazing idea.
As a flashaholic, I would love to come down to Amsterdam and join a riot with a front row seat to experience a score of 30k lux strobe.
And maybe I can take home a modded riot shield as an anticipation prize.

 

[kj2]

Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .

Well, mostly riot police are at places where people aren't thinking at all

 

[Dave D]

Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .

Some of us could take offence at that!! :thinking:

That shield with the flashlight attached just needs a tazer/flashlight combo! :thumbsup:

Hope you had a good vacation, only 7 weeks and I'll be on permanent vacation! :twothumbs

 

[Grizzlyb]

Hope you had a good vacation, only 7 weeks and I'll be on permanent vacation! :twothumbs

Thanks mate, vacation was great.
Only 7 weeks. . .You're a lucky guy .
Damn, after 42 years on the force I really look forward to do the same, but it seems that I will have to wait an other 7 YEARS.
With retirement starting at 67, Dutch Police is probably the oldest force in the world. (when we get that old)

And btw, I am the one that makes a habit of thinking :tinfoil: and usually come up with the most horrible stuff
The rest just live out their normal boring lives.

 

[MaxStatic]

What a fantastic read on the physiology behind strobe employment. My hat's off to your gentlemen!

 

[hanst]

Great thread...

FWIW I was working in a closed psych ward with violent/dangerous patients in the late 80's and early 90's. Usually during the night shift we would be only 2 techs for 15 patients, and it sometimes got pretty rough. I started using a Surefire 6P as a tactical tool, sometimes "strobing" the patients using a fast thumb twitch before taking them down. This was purely unscientific and totally intuitive, I am very impressed to see how much serious research is now available.

Some nurses amusingly thought it was "violent" and "too militaristic", I guess they felt better when we went in and someone would get slammed in a wall and get hurt, or we'd use PPCT techniques including loud verbal commands and wake up the whole unit Either that or we'd end up gathering the emergency response team and the flurry of activity would also wake up and scare everyone, would sometimes take us hours of damage control after to quiet down the unit.

Now, seeing the very conclusive results some of my more enlightened colleagues started getting whatever tactical flashlights we could get back then, and we practiced underground "strobing". It was remarkable to see how well it would incapacitate even violently paranoid psychotic people enough we could fairly gently restrain them at much lesser risk to everyone.

HT

 

[Mattiasdd]

Hello,

thank you for sharing this very interesting study.

I just think it's not really professional, when you have to take out your light to control documents, it always comes on in strobe.

You could use a forward clicky tail switch which can only activates the strobe mode.
And another 'hidden' electronic side switch (like the Olight M20SX) to activate hi/med/low.

In stressful situations LEOs will take it out and press the tail switch immediately.
In other non stressful situations, u have the time to 'search' the side switch.


Just an idea

 

[Grizzlyb]

Hello,

thank you for sharing this very interesting study.

I just think it's not really professional, when you have to take out your light to control documents, it always comes on in strobe.

You could use a forward clicky tail switch which can only activates the strobe mode.
And another 'hidden' electronic side switch (like the Olight M20SX) to activate hi/med/low.

In stressful situations LEOs will take it out and press the tail switch immediately.
In other non stressful situations, u have the time to 'search' the side switch.


Just an idea

And not a bad Idea,

We also worked with it , but it has some drawbacks.

Look at these photo's:

The lady looks aggressive enough. . . but look at her weapon hand.
When the opponent is not effected (fast enough) and comes closer, she can't use that hand as a fist.
That is not very tactical. This is the way a lady uses a hairspray, not going into a fight. She'll at the least brake some fingers, when she has to punch.


Now look at this lady:

She does not appear to be that aggressive, but don't let it fool you, her weapon hand is still instantly usable as a fist.
This "pepperspray" hand position is trained by officers in Holland for the last 12 years. And proven very useful.

Same goes for every other item you have in your hand.
When possible, use it as a tactical tool all the time.

Look at these photo's I took.

When a light has a side switch, automatically you will hold your light like this. When suddenly attacked, you will not be able to use that hand in self defence. Also probably brake fingers when you use that hand in a reflex. (and how do you want to use your tail switch now? )
You may THINK it is not really professional, but in reality the REAL professional user will think more tactical and less practical.

This is the way we hold our lights.

We CAN use it at low, medium and high while searching throu stuff, but when the S.H.T.F. . . .
get the picture?

When You take out our light to control documents, it will come on in strobe.
Simply hold the front end of your light to your body and press the tailswitch for 1.5 sec and it will switch to High, med or low. What ever you need at the moment. (nobody will know or realize that you are switching your light to an other mode. No one bothers, and after a few times you do it automatically.)
Why would that not be professional? A real professional is always also a Tactician 24/7


But, we still are researching this idea of a different way of switching on and of other modes.
Some of our research lights have side witches and "head turn" switches.
At the moment we have good results with a special developed light.
Side switches are hard to find in the dark, but it is easy to find a "head turn switch" and turn it to an other mode while still holding the light tactical.

 

[Chevy-SS]

......... This is the way we hold our lights.

We CAN use it at low, medium and high while searching throu stuff, but when the S.H.T.F. . . . get the picture?

.... A real professional is always also a Tactician 24/7 ........

Terrific post, very useful info and great pics too. Thanks very much :thumbsup:

-

 

[chaparral]

Many years ago (early 1990s) I used to train at an indoor paintball facility and at least once a week the proprietor would annoy the living hell out of us by turning off the main lights, blasting Vagner's "Die Valkure" and turning on a couple of Xenon strobes at I'm guessing maybe 4Hz. All of us would just freeze until this nonsense stopped but we wouldn't take our eyes off the target nor our fingers off the trigger or trigger guard. Those who kept moving in a careless fashion would get shot anyway in spite of the strobing and music. Thinking back, I guess the strobing made me less willing to take the risks inherent in running to a new position or shooting at a target that could very well be my own team member. The rare occasions where I did move during the strobing I was happy enough not to twist an ankle or land on my knees wrong and positive ID of anything else in that environment was just not possible from my new position until the normal lighting came back on. I tried a small training exercise a couple years ago with a Jetbeam RRT3 that I bought off a CPF'er and the effect just isn't there: it strobes too fast and It's more like working under a fluorescent light with a bad ballast than anything remotely disorienting.

 

[grinsefalle]

When I first noticed this thread, I got interested in the TDL20 flashlight. This seemed to be the ideal flashlight for police duty. After several pm's with Koen (grizzlyb), I ordered this light.
This was about 4 month ago and from this point on I carried the flashlight at work (police officer, plain clothes duty).
In the German Messerforum you can read my report/review of the TDL20 flashlight: REVIEW (german language).

These are my experiences of 4 month of use:
* the TDL is a high quality flashlight! finish, craftmanship, built quality...absolutely no reason to complain
* the 280 lumens are enough for nearly every task, due to the well defined and bright hotspot. The different levels are well spaced.
* The UI is great! If you are in a situation where you need to use the flashlight as an tactical illumination or desorienting tool, you don't need to think about the operation of this tool. If I want to to a traffic check, serch a car or a person or something like that, I have time to switch to a constant light setting. I got used to it and even this action can be done automated, e.g. on the way from my police car to the car I want to check.
* the strobe frequency is just the right one. Until now I got no chance to strobe an opponent, but I tried it myself and other officer wanted to do so, too: the strobe is extremely annoying and is capable of desorienting an oppenent. But because of the high frequency, there is just a little impact on the user of the TDL20, it is almost like using constant light mode. If you want to check a garden or a courtyard, there is no need to switch to constant on - you hardly see the strobe when illuminating greater distances.

My conclusion is this one:
The TDL is a tactical illumination tool, which can be used as an normal flashlight, too. That is perfect for police use!
Take a look at the other way round: flashlights, which have all the features of the TDL and can be used as tactical tools during high stress situations are very hard to find.

I can only encourage every LEO to test the TDL..

Thanks to Koen for this great thread!

Michael

 

[Grizzlyb]

All of us would just freeze until this nonsense stopped but we wouldn't take our eyes off the target nor our fingers off the trigger or trigger guard.

To me, that remark tells the whole story.
We used to train on the shooting range under the same conditions. Xenon strobelights, and loud noises etc. It is very annoying, and disturbs the vision on the target a little, but thats all.

But this is a complete other situation.
These strobe lights you mention are general direction lights, more like a very bright light bulb that is flickering fast.
You can´t compare this with the lux that is directed completely in the eyes of the opponent.

With a tactical light you CAN´T see the target, you cant even see the surroundings anymore and it will take some seconds to adjust after you have been hit.
The Lights you revere to affect the opponent as much as your self. That is the opposite from what we do.
Sorry, but this is apples and oranges.
The trick is, not to be blinded yourself but blind and disorient the other guy without having problems yourself.

Think about that lightbulb above your head, high on lumens and very low on lux.
How much lux will actually hit your eye? Very little. It is annoying, but you can see everything in the room.
Try to look in a good tactical light and you wont be able to see anything for a pretty long period.

/ / / /

Hi grinsefalle,

Thanks for the reseach and testing. You and your team are really helping us with data.
In the end our only goal is to make our fellow officers a bit safer.:thumbsup:

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I am going to sticky this thread. This will be the first "strobe" thread that is worthy of such recognition. The OP has been very professional in his presentation of the tactical use of strobe, and responders, with very few exceptions, have like wise been professional in their responses, and contributions. The thread will continue to be monitored closely for trolling and inappropriate posts, so that it can continue to be a good rescourse for those in law enforcement, and good information for any CPF member.

Bill

 

[greenlight]

I am going to sticky this thread. This will be the first "strobe" thread that is worthy of such recognition.

This is a very important discussion. Good flashlights are ruined with unneeded strobe features and at the same time the people who need the feature can't get the flashlight they want.

Hopefully, manufacturers will recognize the difference and market their products appropriately.

 

[Grizzlyb]

Hi Bill,

My thanks to you guys who keep this community together.
I feel truly honored to be part of it.

greenlight,
We agree on both parts .

 

[xZenTigerx]

Thank you very much for taking time to share this knowledge. You article is impressive in scope and content and if this is not your native language then KUDOS too you for that also. I have embarked on my own path of understanding the use of strobe and have some concepts to work towards and on. Your information as to policy and a light specd to always start in strobe has opened up further thought for some of my own ideas, really thanks for that.

May the Strobe be with you! LOL

ps: your response to the poster that challenged your knowledge based upon that one book has placed in STONE for me that you are FOR REAL and this is excellent information to incorporate.

 

[chaparral]

But this is a complete other situation.
These strobe lights you mention are general direction lights, more like a very bright light bulb that is flickering fast.
You can´t compare this with the lux that is directed completely in the eyes of the opponent.

Correct. We trained in a modified industrial building and the Xenon strobes were mounted to a high ceiling some 3m/10feet above our standing height. The effect was probably more annoying to us than say bounce from one of my lights on strobe mode (TM-11, Zebralight SC600, RRT-3) off a light colored surface such as a painted wall or clean concrete but less than accidentally bouncing the output from my light off a large reflective plate-glass sliding door and into my own eyes (did that exactly once..never again )

 

[Grizzlyb]

Correct. We trained in a modified industrial building and the Xenon strobes were mounted to a high ceiling some 3m/10feet above our standing height. The effect was probably more annoying to us than say bounce from one of my lights on strobe mode (TM-11, Zebralight SC600, RRT-3) off a light colored surface such as a painted wall or clean concrete but less than accidentally bouncing the output from my light off a large reflective plate-glass sliding door and into my own eyes (did that exactly once..never again )

Your right,
The ceiling/wall bounce of many modern lights is getting almost to bright for our purpose.
So we look for a more focused beam and less spill.
Also, those wide beam strobes cover your complete range of vision.
When your in a room like that for a longer period, like more then a minute, it is know to trigger PSE (Photosensitive epilepsy) with some people (less then 1 in 3000) .
Espessialy with bright red coloured walls. (some studys poiny in that direction)