Power plants (continuation of a topic drift)

[Darell]

Here is one version of the cause of the CA power "crisis" http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/03/01/MN215702.DTL

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Electricity generators purposely shut down power plants in California to take advantage of shortages and earn more money selling alternative megawatts.

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[Brock]

I should tell a story I heard over on the TDI forum. It really has no point, but interesting, at least to me.

These 4 guys work somewhere in Texas and have to go to a meeting about 400 miles away for two weekends in a row. So the first weekend they all pile in to one the 4's new Ford Escape and take off. They got 16.5mpg and had to stop 4 times for fuel. The next weekend they took the other guys TDI Jetta, they went the exact same speed 80mph and got over 48 mpg. The people in the back of the Jetta said there was more legroom and the car was quieter and smoother, but it wasn't quite as easy to get in and out of. He filled the car before they left and didn't refill it until after they returned.

My point is in this case they gave up almost nothing, the Jetta was actually cheaper then the Escape, and they were generally more comfortable overall. Not to mention the consideration the cost of fuel and less pollutants overall.

 

[Darell]

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Brock said:
My point is in this case they gave up almost nothing, the Jetta was actually cheaper then the Escape, and they were generally more comfortable overall. Not to mention the consideration the cost of fuel and less pollutants overall.

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Yup, a great example of saving money while saving resources. Not all green choices cost extra.

I ride a bicycle whenever I can for the same reasons...

 

[Tomas]

Darell said just a few posts ago:
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OK, here we go. Let me begin by saying that your example (while something to be proud of) simply is not representative of the average American driver. You drive an inexpensive, relatively efficient vehicle for very few miles.

...

Now, that's out of the way, let's pretend that you drive your car LOTS more, so the point of my examples will actually mean something.

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But, lets not pretend, just for a moment, and go back to real world fact to find some sort of "other side" so eventually we can reach a middle ground. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

First, if this hypothetical $3000 super green vehicle* that even costs less to set up for and run than my existing ICE vehicle really existed, I could replace my current vehicle with in in a couple of years - but again, only if it really existed ... What is the real world cost of an EV and the attendant cost of it's charging station and the commercially installed buried wiring and housing to protect it where I actually live in the real world? (An apartment building.)

While I understand (and agree with) your theoretical examples and arguments, let me once again slip in real world figures to see where it takes us, OK?

If drasticly increasing my milage driven is the only way an EV can be shown to be a more eco-friendly ("green") solution to my transportation needs, then the EV solution is not yet ready for prime time.

If the monthly cost (purchase, operation, eco-costs) of an EV is many times higher than the cost of an ICE vehicle, the EV is not yet ready for prime time.

All things considered, if I were to replace my paid for ICE vehicle with an EV with the required load capacity (most likely the RAV4), what would be the monthly outlay for vehicle, charge station, charge station weather protection, electrical wiring, insurance, license, taxes, and maintenance figured over a five year period? Oh! I forgot the electricity. Throw that in, too.

How much more than (I'll round up) $100 / month is that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Meanwhile, I just sit here and use my $28 / month of electricity for my apartment and $10 / month gasoline for my car and figure that I'm not all that bad a global villager ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Take care,

-= MICROSOFT FREE ZONE =-

* I keep saying "vehicle" rather than "car" because the few EV's I've seen in person, or in print generally don't have a whole lot of usable space. Seems my wheelchair has a problem fitting in most of 'em. That means that it will have to be a more spacious vehicle than any of the EV "cars" I'm aware of.

T

 

[Darell]

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Tomas said:
But, lets not pretend, just for a moment, and go back to real world fact to find some sort of "other side" so eventually we can reach a middle ground. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Please let me state again that there is no cost-effective green alternative that I can think of for YOUR current situation. If that's what you want to hear, then please hear me say it again. You don't really think that your situation is representative of the average American driver though, do you? Most of your following questions seem to suggest that you do.

1. The Average American (AA from now on) spends way more than $2k on a car. Remember that SUVs have accounted for more than 50% of new car sales in the past few years.
2. The AA drives close to 15k miles/year, not 2.4k as in your situation.
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What is the real world cost of an EV and the attendant cost of it's charging station and the commercially installed buried wiring and housing to protect it where I actually live in the real world?

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An equivalent EV to your $2k car would cost about $1.5k to produce in the same quantity as your ICE. Charger included. As far as station installation, etc - well again, your situation isn't representative of the AA. To attempt to green up the folks who drive as little as you would be about the worst place to begin. I'll keep saying it...
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While I understand (and agree with) your theoretical examples and arguments, let me once again slip in real world figures to see where it takes us, OK?

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The problem here, is that you can't find any real world figures because the equivalent EVs simply don't exist. Why don't they exist? Partly because of all the effort being put into demonstrating why they aren't practical or cost effective... instead of putting that same effort into MAKING them more practical and cost effective. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
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If drasticly increasing my milage driven is the only way an EV can be shown to be a more eco-friendly ("green") solution to my transportation needs, then the EV solution is not yet ready for prime time.

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Respectfully. NO. Just not ready for YOUR situation. For the AA driver, and EV is a superior solution for the commuter vehicle in the family. We need to go after the folks who actually driver their cars. The SUV solo-driver who has a 50-mile round trip. THERE is where EVs are ready for prime time. And there are millions upon millions of those drivers in this country. Hell, just in CA. A blanket statement based on your situation alone is quite damaging and unrealistic in the context of what you keep calling the "real world." My "real world" is far different than yours, as you can imagine.
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If the monthly cost (purchase, operation, eco-costs) of an EV is many times higher than the cost of an ICE vehicle, the EV is not yet ready for prime time.

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You mean the cost TODAY? You mean the cost of a vehicle that doesn't exist? Or one that is produced in quantities of 100s vs millions? The only reason that EVs cost more than ICE vehicles is because they're all hand-built and all effectively prototypes. In mass production, an EV would be cheaper to build than an equivalent ICE. There are thousands fewer high-tolerance moving parts in an EV. and mass production is the "real world" - it just isn't "today's world" where most people direct their efforts at keeping EVs from being produced, instead of clearing the way for their production in quantities that would bring the prices down.
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All things considered, if I were to replace my paid for ICE vehicle with an EV with the required load capacity (most likely the RAV4), what would be the monthly outlay for vehicle, charge station, charge station weather protection, electrical wiring, insurance, license, taxes, and maintenance figured over a five year period? Oh! I forgot the electricity. Throw that in, too.

[/ QUOTE ] OK, the only way to balance this is to find a Rav4EV that is used, and worth $2k. Not an unrealistic assumption if the real world allowed mass production of EVs. The charger comes with the car, no weather protection is needed as the chargers are out-door rated for pedastals in parking lots. Insurance, license, taxes are equivalent to an ICE vehicle. maintenance? Zero compared to an ICE. electricity? About $2/month relative to your $15/month gasoline tab.

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How much more than (I'll round up) $100 / month is that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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I'll round up the EV costs to the nearest $10 and call it $60/month. Answer to your question: (- $40). In the REAL WORLD where I actually drive and maintain my stable of EVs, I pay about 5c/mile in fuel AND maintenance costs. Do you realize that you're paying over $5/mile? Again, that was 5c vs $5. And somewhere, the cost of environmental damage here in the real world became lost. When did that get swept under the rug. That was, in fact, the main point of my last post.
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Meanwhile, I just sit here and use my $28 / month of electricity for my apartment and $10 / month gasoline for my car and figure that I'm not all that bad a global villager ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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I pay about $100/month to power my home and my two EVs. I have no gasoline bill to speak of.

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* I keep saying "vehicle" rather than "car" because the few EV's I've seen in person, or in print generally don't have a whole lot of usable space. Seems my wheelchair has a problem fitting in most of 'em. That means that it will have to be a more spacious vehicle than any of the EV "cars" I'm aware of.

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Haven't we been over this one before? There have only been five full-function production EVs. The two-seater EV1 is the only one that won't fit a full-size wheelchair. The Honda was a mini-minivan. There have been two pickup trucks, and my Rav4. All of those would fit your wheel chair just fine.

So after this long, arduous tirade, it all comes down to one question from me: Why all the effort to demonstrate how an EV isn't the best solution for your situation? I think everybody would agree that is the case. Is it possible to consider the bigger picture where the AA driver could, without great extra expense, reduce oil consuption AND pollution by switching to a greener form of transportation?

 

[Tomas]

OK, we both want eco-friendly vehicles, and agree about most of the big points. The only major disagreement is in discussing what is available in the real world NOW and what may be available in the real world at some point in the future.

I'm not bad mouthing the EVs, nor your desire for everyone to have one, all I'm saying is that may indeed happen - ten years from now - but that there are a lot of little niggling details - like standardized power stations, how to legislate (that's what I will take ... ) their availability to the many millions of apartment dwellers, increasing the range of EVs so that they can be used for more than an "average" commute, and many other things that make the EV "not yet ready for prime time." (That really was my point.)

It would be nice if they were ready - heck, I've been waiting for them to be common since I read about them coming "real soon now" in Popular Science an the '50's. All I'm saying is that I'm still waiting, and if EV progress continues as it has over the past 40+ years, I'll not live to see them as common.

As to current availability of EVs, I was unaware of the Honda minivan. That makes two that would be useable (yes, a pickup with a canopy would carry a wheelchair and protect it from the weather, but the access to it would be, uh, "rather poor").

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Darell, just trying to suggest the sheer size of the problems that must be solved to make the EV ubiquitous. Most of those problems are NOT in the production of the vehicles, but in establishing continent-wide support for same. Of course that's a "chicken or egg" type problem.

For that support to be "real" to people trying to use EVs in "real" situations everyday, the solutions must consider not just the "Average American," but the majority of Americans. (And yes I know I don't fit that group, either - I'm "fringe." I get very tired of hearing from more sources than you would realize that "Most people don't need "X", and it is just not practical to provide it since only about 2 percent of the population needs it.")

And BTW, I do understand the "economy of scale" argument and how it affects the price of an EV, too. An example would be my manual (human powered) wheelchair, which contains less material and much less technology than a decent mountain bike, but cost more than my car ...

I'll back out of this discussion, as there is little I could add without generating bad feelings.

Take care,

-= MICROSOFT FREE ZONE =-

 

[Darell]

Tomas -

Most of your response made me feel very good indeed. I'm glad we understand each other's points. This, I think, is the most important part of what you just said:
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Tomas said:
Of course that's a "chicken or egg" type problem.

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And most of the bitching you'll hear from me is due to this problem. No, today we don't have the best EVs that we are capable of creating, and that saddens me. But I don't see that as a reason to rain on the EV parade. No, in fact I see it as a reason to promote them. We don't have the EV that you want because there is no EV market. There is no market because the federal governement and the auto manufacturers don't want to make them, and they're winning this battle. If they don't offer what the public wants, then the public doesn't buy them, and the manufacturers throw up their hands and point to the dismal numbers (even though every EV in existance had an unfulfilled waiting list). My biggest concern here is with all the energy that is put into pointing out all the problems with today's EVs. Somebody (me, for example) has to purchase and demonstrate how usable today's EVs are, in order for there to be better EVs tomorrow. If the public sits out and waits around for EVs to be the perfect solution in every way - well, then the public will sit out forever. I use an EV for 90% of my driven miles, and I'm a happier, healthier driver for it.

I thank you again for your considered discussion, and hope I didn't come off as too offensive. This stuff is near and dear to me, as you can tell. And at this point there are about 1000 production EV drivers against the rest of the nation. It is a difficult and often unpleasant battle. Rare is the day that somebody out of the blue expresses the virtues of EVs.... until they've driven one.

Please don't leave on my account. You were the reason for this thread, afterall. And disagreeing with somebody of intelligence is WAY better than agreeing with in idiot. You can quote me on that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ikendu]

Darell said: Somebody...has to purchase and demonstrate how usable today's EVs are

Bravo, Darell!

I really salute you for being out there, actually driving your EV! Right you are! If people who care about energy independence and our environment won't take action...who will?

I once thought about buying a Hybrid car with the idea it would save money on gas, but...when I calculated the extra vehicle cost for a hybrid, I realized it would never pay for itself. So...I didn't buy. Later I read a web post from a guy who had bought one.

He said "True...it won't pay for itself because they aren't mass produced yet and it costs too much. But...if I (who really care about the environment) won't buy one, who will? That would mean that Hybrids would NEVER be mass produced. So, I bought one because it is something that I can do, personally, that is good for the world. It might be something small, but I can DO IT. I don't have to wait on Congress or automakers or public opinion. I can just do it."

I found that very inspiring.

So...I've decided what I can do is...I bought my diesel car and I will run BioDiesel in it produced from soybeans grown right here in the good 'ole U S of A. It might make a small difference, but it is something that I can do, personally.

There is a very, very old quote where a being of power, honor and wisdom give this advice: "Take action".

My BioDiesel powered car is my "take action".

Darell, again, I salute you man!

 

[Darell]

Thanks ikendu -

Nice words to hear. I should mention right up front that I'm not quite as altruistic as I may appear though. The EV driving experience is so superior to any ICE vehicle that I've ever driven that I would spend extra for an EV even if it DID pollute as much as a gasoline vehicle. Shhh. Don't let that get out though...

It does amuse me that many folks will donate money to all kinds of worthwhile causes (battered women shelters, homeless, church, environmental causes, political parties... what have you) yet many of those same people don't want to spend a dime extra for a vehicle that can help slow the negative effects we have on our environment. I absolutely consider the money I spend on EVs as a donation to my environment. I don't expect a monetary return. Same with my PV array. It'll be forever before that pays off, but I still think it is one of the best places for me to put my money. I'm expecting dividends in the air we breathe, and in the politics of energy.

 

[NightStorm]

For a recent article on the trials and tribulations of the U.S. wind turbine industry (particularly in the N.W.) click here.

Dan

 

[NightStorm]

Here's another one I just came across: Reuters

Dan