Problems getting orders?

[Incidentalist]

Since I was one complaining in the other thread, I thought I might interject in this one.

After a long wait I did finally receive both of my lights (a Raw Ti and a Wee Ti). They are excellent lights, no doubt about that.

Will I do business with Rob again? Yes. But I will do so only when he has items up for immediate sale (as he does from time to time in the Custom B/S/T), or I will contact Rob before placing an order like Henk_Lu did in order to get an accurate estimation on when I can expect to receive an order.

I really hope that Rob is able to weather the storm as he is a gifted flashlight maker and it would be sad to lose the little gems that he has a knack for creating. I also hope that Rob truly understands why so many feel the way they do and considers ammending some of the ways in which he runs his business.

 

[TECENG]

I really hope that Rob is able to weather the storm as he is a gifted flashlight maker and it would be sad to lose the little gems that he has a knack for creating. I also hope that Rob truly understands why so many feel the way they do and considers ammending some of the ways in which he runs his business.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[koopa]

I thought I would post here part of my Lummi log and comments:

16/09/2009 – Ordered Plain Lummi RAW (NS, No trits, 200/20 white)
22/09/2009 – Requested to purchase additional green tritium for previous torch
29/09/2009 – Rob says “hope to have green locators in stock early November”
29/09/2009 – Sent him well wishes with his Jeer, Rob replies positively
23/10/2009 – I inquire why the torch hasn’t been sent yet, Rob replies “a longer delay than expected, your order will be ready to dispatch during the next ten days” “Current delay is mineral glass, which would be here if it wasn’t for the postal strikes. I am expecting this during next week”
03/11/2009 – Remind Rob that the ‘week’ has come and gone, he replies that he can dispatch my order today (he doesn’t)
04/11/2009 – Order/pay for new Lummi RAW (NS, Green Trits (not installed) 20/20 Warm white)
05/11/2009 – Rob confirms that apart from the tritium (which is now not available till January), the new item can be dispatched now. As agreed I tell him to send the body to Modamag, and all other parts to me.
05/11/2009 – Rob says he will now send my old torch order, and that the new torch parts will follow in the “next week or two”
08/11/2009 – Rob emails to say that he sent the old torch on 06/11/2009 (confirmed) and apologises for the long wait (takes 7 days to arrive, total delay from payment to send: 7 Weeks)
13/11/2009 – I send Rob the address to send the new torch body to Modamag for coating, confirm that the old torch arrived.
14/11/2009 – Rob confirms that he will send the torch body to Modamag today to make the deadline (which he does)
05/12/2009 – I ask where the parts are for my torch, Rob just tells me he will be sending them to me directly.
20/01/2010 – I ask where the parts are, and request that they be sent with the Green tritium that should now be in stock.
20/01/2010 – Rob apologises for the delay again, promises to get the parts sent today, but says the green tritium will not be in till early Feb.
12/02/2010 – I provide a full list of the parts I have paid for, and my address, and remind Rob to send them to me.
15/02/2010 – Rob says he is waiting for “an order of the neutral Cree’s to arrive. We can then go ahead & complete your order.”
15/02/2010 – I ask Lummi if I can now purchase the tritium. He replies “There will be plenty once they arrive”, but provides no date or explaination why it’s still not available. In this time I could have easily gotten it from elsewhere

As of today the delay on the 2nd torch (my 3rd ever and possibly last from Lummi) is 15 weeks. My first torch was a similar tale of delays and miscommunications about parts in stock (I eventually got my torch be requesting it be sent without batteries, that had been holding up the order for weeks, I got the batteries in 4 days from someone else on the web!)

The tone of my messages is almost always friendly, and Rob responds in kind, but I get the feeling he’d answer me / deliver sooner if I were less friendly.
The worst thing is, it seems that all my parts (except the tritium) were ready to send to me at some point, but then they went out of stock again... he did not keep them to send to me, or send them when he had them and said he would send them.

I really like Rob’s torches, and could sell many of them to friends and colleagues, but I will not recommend them because of all these issues.

The funniest thing is that Rob always apologises for the delay, but it’s not the delay, it really isn’t. If I had to wait 6 months for my torch, but that was the same for everyone, and I clearly knew the date, and he communicated with me what stage it was up to, the delay wouldn’t be annoying, it’d be exciting.

Rob keeps making out that economic times are tough, and I think he’s implying that he’s spending the money we send him for our orders to pay for the parts for the backorders, and then uses subsequent newer orders to pay for ours, and that he simply assembles/sends the torch to the person who gets the loudest/angriest (a very dangerous business model), but I say that since he seems to have so much time waiting for parts, he should be spending that time communicating ACTUAL delays BEFORE we message him. I think to his surprise he’d find that would make us all a lot more friendly and remove some of his stress.

Hope you take this in a good way Rob, as I’ve communicated to you in many messages, I really wish for you to make it to profitability and a sound business model, you’ve certainly got the talent.

 

[krash]

The negative impact of the Jeer in the CPF has been felt & another thread along the same lines is sure to have an even greater impact on my business.

I think that a good solution to these troubles would be to open a Lummi stock thread that is updated weekly. You could detail what parts you have, finished products etc and also the lead times of the out of stock parts. Doing this would remove the uncertainty that CPF users have over your products and would hopefully increase orders and remove these types of threads. I believe there are many of us here that are just put off pulling the trigger due to the uncertain lead times.

I don't think people mind waiting a month or two for your great product but people want to know when they place the order wow long it is going to be before they receive their great flashlight.

I really hope things work out as Lummi lights are of the highest quality.

 

[redfernsoljah]

I am going to have to agree with Koopa, Krash, and others. I would have been more receptive to this if ROB was more forthcoming. I myself am deployed in Iraq and bought this light as a gift for my wife. You can imagine how I am trying to avoid any undue stress upon me and my job that I have to do.

I too am unclear what, the economy has to do with this or slow sales. I myself have paid in full. Unlike many other custom orders I have done in the past that where 10X the amount with my firearms. I would pay a deposit and pay in full when it would be dispatched. I am beyond frustration here with the lack of communication and broken promises. I also had the feeling that my funds where used somewhere else besides what I purchased at the time.

I really liked the design of the product. With the current business model I will not be ordering another product until this is remedied.

Rob also spoke of negative press against him and how it is affecting his business. I as a previous small business owner welcome it. The only way to better a business is to take your customers criticisms. You have a great product, though as others have suggested you may look at ways to improve communication, delivery times, etc. I can say if you do not improve then you will not make it in the long hall. I hope that you are able to remedy these things and do wish you the best in this business. I hope to receive my flashlight shortly.

On an end note. I did not even receive an PM from ROB when I posted this. I would have expected more out a business. Off the Soap Box.

 

[fyrstormer]

I think that a good solution to these troubles would be to open a Lummi stock thread that is updated weekly. You could detail what parts you have, finished products etc and also the lead times of the out of stock parts. Doing this would remove the uncertainty that CPF users have over your products and would hopefully increase orders and remove these types of threads.

The most problematic recurring complaint is that of not reserving parts for people's lights on a first-come first-serve basis. If I buy a flashlight and it isn't already assembled and ready to go, the parts should get dropped in a bin with my order number on it and they should never ever leave until the order is ready for assembly -- and then it should go straight into an envelope with my name on it. It doesn't matter if it'll take a year and a day to complete the order, whoever paid first should get their parts first, even if those parts could be used to complete someone else's simpler order. No cutting in line, that's what I learned in school.

 

[MikeSalt]

Clearly Rob used to have an excellent system back when I ordered my Raw Ti / Wee NS and various option/spare parts. So much so that bits would arrive earlier than expected, before I could hide them from the missus'.

Back then, there were much fewer options available (only Ti/NS, only one type of emitter, only two power outputs, only one trit colour etc...), and I wonder if this may have been the undoing. When your flashlight relies on multiple suppliers, more flexible options complicate this process.

I like your method fyrstomer. It may mean a longer average wait for the majority, but it is fair at least.

Despite all this, I have ordered a Wee SS with highest-power Cree neutral-white emitter. I have every confidence that Rob will deliver, even if it takes a while.

 

[JB in SC]

There's no doubt that multiple options and variations can be problematic with any small high precision manufacturing operation. Even more so with small runs (ie, torches). Mine were delivered in a very timely fashion, with good communication from Rob.

A caveat...I did make sure that what I wanted was actually in stock and ready to assemble prior to placing the order, with no options that would delay the shipment.

 

[MikeSalt]

A caveat...I did make sure that what I wanted was actually in stock and ready to assemble prior to placing the order, with no options that would delay the shipment.

I think that those that can do this, should do this. Rob's a one-man band, and so acts like this greatly reduce the strain on the back-order system.

For information, the neutral-white emitter won't be here until next week. If you are thinking of being an awkward bugger like me and ordering one, do check with Rob first for the latest delivery estimate. Remember that due to the weakness of the £ against the $ (Cree's currency), these parts have become more expensive, yet as far as I can see, Rob has absorbed the increase without passing it on to you.

 

[HarveyRich]

Originally posted by JB in SC:
A caveat...I did make sure that what I wanted was actually in stock and ready to assemble prior to placing the order, with no options that would delay the shipment.

That sounds good, but I doubt that is the problem. I ordered a Raw and Wee on the "special" section. Then I ordered an extra battery for each. There were no trits, no other extras. That seems like a pretty straightforward order to me. I'm now waiting over 10 months with multiple email exchanges, as mentioned previously.

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

Hi Guys, just acknowledging this thread & that I am hearing you all.
It is clear that my backlog has been a problem for a good while now & I dont doubt that enough is enough for some of you.
Again I would like to reassure you that you will get your order & I am not keep anybody waiting just for the fun of it. In an ideal world all orders would be dispatched right now & I would have some stock remaining for immediate dispatch of any new orders.
Things have become a little tuffer again due to very little sales in January.
I hope things will improve & my new light MiL will encourage sales.
Regardless given a little more time you will receive your order from me. Again I am very sorry for keeping my customers waiting.
Rob.

As good as your intentions may be, I just don't see how this is going to work out. This is not a flawed business model; it's not like anyone really believes you have nearly a year of lights to manufacture or that part sourcing or anything like that is the real issue. The real issue is you essentially have a bankruptcy in the making. You have all but admitted that the money you have taken in has gone to pay the bills (no shame in that, a guy has to keep the lights on) and due to insufficient business there is no money to buy parts to produce the lights you promised to make months ago. Then you're basically begging people to continue to send business your way so you can fight your way out of the hole. I'm all for that but I think for your customers (not me, I'm just a bystander) you need to be VERY HONEST with your self and with your public and declare whether you really have a fighting chance or if it's time to throw in the towel.

After all, you sounds like a great guy, do you really want more people to suffer than those who already have? The noble way to take ownership for this problem would be to take out a business loan of some sort - one which is just large enough to fulfill past orders - and complete your promised business orders to restore your name as quickly as possible. Anything less could very well be criminal if you continue to accept money from folks without the reasonable belief that you will be able to provide a product in return.

 

[orb]

W.L.B.N.F: I use this forum as a place to gain knowledge & share ideas related to torches. I do business on here also but have never wanted to discuss, share or be given advice on running the business from members who think they have an insight. All good will accepted & when somebody takes the time to try & help I thank you very much. However your post can be summed up with your one Bold word. Which is why I am responding, I do not want to have to discuss this on a public board & nor should you really force me to.
I consider all this speculation & bad press a real waste of time, energy & is totally non productive.
I have provided answers & its all down to time, customers waiting will get there orders just give me some time please. On top of time I have also asked for continued support, if people can't offer support then the next most helpful thing is to simply do nothing. If on the other hand you like to make things worse for me & my customers waiting then continue to share your thoughts on a public forum for potential future customers to question if they should buy a Lummi or not.

As you have mentioned bankruptcy then you are simply wrong. Brave bold statement from you who has no idea on how Lummi is run as a business, you could of been completely right, perhaps thats why you thought you'd be so bold so you could satisfy yourself with I told you so.
Did it ever cross your mind how your post would make me react, make my customers current & future think? Clearly Not! Or without a care.
The facts are that business has been quite & I am behind with some orders. Lummi has very little in the way of overheads or debit. There would be no reason to go bankrupt & the worst that could happen is for sales to dry up completely & I would have to provide an income from elsewhere. Customers will always get what they pay me for because thats the kind of person I am. The statement I made about Lummi no longer existing was a little strong as it was aimed to stop negative posts. Lummi will continue to exist until the day nobody wants what I have to offer. That is not how it is today & I just have some improvements & catching up to do.

Understood if you have a Lummi experience you wish to share if you are a customer past or present. Please think before you post to whom it really affects.
Any bystanders who have an opinion really should keep out of this if they can do nothing to help.
Apologies if I come across a little blunt or harsh, please bear in mind how you would react to incorrect negative remarks made by you & your business publicly.

 

[koopa]

Customers will always get what they pay me for because thats the kind of person I am.

I think that's true. And I feel I am enough of a patron to speak, not a bystander.

Attention new customers: Rob WILL get you your torch, and it will be beautiful, you will take it everywhere and needlessly point at things till the nickel gives you a rash in the hope that others will notice how awesome your little pocket rocket is, and beware, once you hand it over, you might not get it back (I've lost two to family). THAT'S how good a Lummi design torch is! And my Lummi RAW NS went through the washing machine for a week and still worked IMMEDIATELY, with almost no damage. That's how durable Rob's K.I.S.S. designs are! :)

I just feel that some of this criticism is warranted Rob, you're still not listening, you're STILL responding only to the angriest person, you're STILL apologising for the delays. IT IS NOT THE DELAYS!!!!!! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Send me an email Rob, BEFORE I have to hassle or write anything in a public forum, just TELL me what the delays are. Even if the delay is "too busy designing awesome new torches, everyone will get updates on their orders on friday -> send to all".

You can't just beg us all to stop complaining cos it's "bad for business", it FEELS like you're randsoming our orders, and if anyone is getting nervous about Lummi, it's from your replies! Just read any sad story in the Hall of Shame section to see what being defensive and attacking people personally (even if provoked) does for a business... It's a sign of how much we appreciate your work that this thread is confined here and not in the Jeer section.

I, for one, will buy many of your torches, and your new ones, just stop telling us to all be quiet, and start messaging us about updates. You can't have it both ways Rob, either business is busy and you're rich enough to send orders or business is quiet and you have plenty of time to communicate with people. If not, explain, and we'll "understand" and "be supportive". Keep only writing to those of us who say bad things about you, in public, and see what happens.

PS: I think it's been a while since you bought a torch from someone else. Go order something from 4sevens and see what the service is like at half the price.

 

[orb]

Koopa: Thank you for the 1st paragraph of your last post.
Shame you had to continue on!

I do not know what you want me to say that has not already been said.
All communication about your order can be done via email, it tends to only go public when you decide. Why you think your doing anybody any good by listing our edited email correspondence in your other post I have no idea.
Unless for example your purpose was to try & stop people buying from me & to express your frustration then thats all your achieving.
Everybody knows I comunicate & can get answers required from me direct.
Seems there will be a few on a public forum that will post before they realize the consequences beyond themselves.

I have said before what a benefit the forum is when all is good. I have reaped the benefits & enjoyed the place. For a little while I have read for the 1st time in my history here some negative unbeneficial posts, understandably this makes being @ the forum less enjoyable & it tends again just to be a few that can spoil it for the rest of us.

To reiterate if you have no other goal than to destroy theres only so much I can do. But please do not do it without thinking.
If on the other hand you can provide some optimism & stay patient then we are all doing the best we can.

 

[orb]

I
PS: I think it's been a while since you bought a torch from someone else. Go order something from 4sevens and see what the service is like at half the price.

Again another wrong statement bassed on what exactly?

 

[Dog Chaser]

I have a number of Rob's lights. They are all awesome and they were all delivered in a timely manner. I haven't had contact with Rob for over a year, but he was always a pleasure to do business with. These are tough economic times for all of us. Posting negative comments especially based on speculation is not only mean, but completely rude. Let the man run his business. He's obviously aware of the situation and working towards a solution. Until then, let's keep this thread a little more friendly.

 

[koopa]

Again another wrong statement bassed on what exactly?

I just mean that 4sevens is a good example of occasional delays, good communication, that's all.

Why you think your doing anybody any good by listing our edited email correspondence in your other post I have no idea.

Why did I post my log? It included positive stuff too, I think it is fair that people know who they're dealing with? I would feel that to make my statements without it would be biased, which is much of your complaint? How can you think it's fair that people only mention positive things on the forum when you mess up? I'm sure you check the Jeers section before you deal with someone, aren't you glad it exists, for your protection? Why should you be any different?

if you have no other goal than to destroy

This is really not my aim, truly, I LOVE your torches, and I hope to remain a loyal customer, you have (until this) been very pleasant to deal with. I just wish to expose the problem so you can admit it and fix it long term. I'm asking for an email when there's a problem delivering on time, it's very little to ask. Other manufacturers do it. I don't want to have to send you 20 emails to get a torch, it makes me feel like I'm hassling, but I genuinely feel there's no other way to get it delivered in under 6 months.

This will be my last post about this for a while, but just answer this:

1) Why do you repeatedly tell me you will ship TODAY, and then not send the item?

2) Why is it you don't normally email us when there is a delay, sometimes for months?

 

[koopa]

If on the other hand you can provide some optimism

I believe Lummi will go on to create wonderous new designs of VBC torches that will bring you a ton of customers and deserved praise, and perhaps enough money to hire yourself a secretary to communicate with us / order / send stuff, leaving you free to be your genius inventor self :)

 

[Jay R]

I have six of Rob's lights. Some of them came fast, some I sent the money for and had to wait for a while (though I admit not 6 months plus). I have also met him twice and he came across as being an honest guy who will try his best to help you out.

I understand that if you have sent money to another country and didn't yet get what you ordered it may make you naffed off and concerned somewhat but I don't understand why you are all having a go at him so much. If you feel that strong about it, just ask for your money back. Rob has always either delivered the light or refunded the cash when requested.

There's been other sellers here who have taken money, not sent a light and not even replied to messages or offered a refund till a year later and they haven't had anything like the grilling as Rob.

Rob, love your lights and I'll order more and if I decide I've had to wait too long, I'll ask for my money back. ( Though I'd probably just wait.)

 

[HarveyRich]

Originally Posted by Jay R:
I understand that if you have sent money to another country and didn't yet get what you ordered it may make you naffed off and concerned somewhat but I don't understand why you are all having a go at him so much. If you feel that strong about it, just ask for your money back. Rob has always either delivered the light or refunded the cash when requested.

I was going to wait until 11 months passed, from my original order, before reposting, but I just had to respond to this. Please, come on now! How would you feel if you'd been waiting 10+ months for an order from some purveyer (of anything) and never had a reply except when you emailed and that reply always said that you would get your order in 10 to 14 days? Of course people are upset. I have trouble believing that anyone could NOT understand why people are upset! I've waited this long--very patiently until about 6- 8 months from my original order--because I really wanted to get a Raw and Wee from what everyone had been saying on this forum. I've just decided that enough is enough and that my frustration threshold has been passed.

Personally, I'm still going to give another two weeks and then, as I've mentioned in my email to Rob, I'm going to ask for my money back. Nothing is worth this frustration. It's a hell of a way to do business and I feel victimized. I suspect that if you go back a year or more people were getting their orders filled in a reasonably timely manner. So, whatever the cause, something has happened within the past year. I just happened to get in on the early phase of the problem.