Rayovac 4.0 NIMH cells --what's up with them?

[kwkarth]

Hi folks. I've bee searching the forums looking for factual information about the New but now obsolete Rayovac 4.0 NiMh AA and AAA batteries.

I've found thread after thread where people seem to make assumptions about their chemistry, construction, and capacities.

To be fair, a great deal of the confusion comes from the misleading ad copy on their packaging and complete lack of information about them at Rayovac's web site.

I see enough differences documented between Rayovac Hybrids and these 4.0 to make me doubt they're identical, yet without evidence, most folks around here are assuming that they're identical to the Hybrids.

I'm looking for facts so that I can make an intelligent and informed decision regarding these battteries or Sanyo Eneloops. Has anyone studied this new battery?

Here's what I *think* I know about them so far...

• I was looking around Rayovac's web site and found patent documents for their build in charge rate controller (IC3) I think they called it. It does seem to be in all three battery designs IC3, Hybrid, and 4.0 products.
• I can find no mention at all of their supposedly patented Lithium Hydroxide coating on the anode which helps the cell have a lower self discharge rate.
• This lithium hydroxide coating attribute seems to be confined to the 4.0 product so far as I know, yet the Hybrid product claims to hold a charge for a year, whereas the 4.0 product claims to hold 80% charge for six months. Could be just weasel words, but I wonder just the same.
• Maybe the 4.0 product is less expensive to manufacture?
• Rayovac Hybrid and 4.0 AA cells look identical to one another from the outside, and both are made in China.
• The weight is within normal variance 27.5gm Hybrid, and 27.2gm to 27.6gm for the 4.0 cells
• They seem to be able to put out a lot of current without getting hot., although I've not measured the extent of that capacity.
• Running the TK40 on Turbo, the 4.0's stayed cool as a cucumber, while the light itself got very hot eventually. After using the 4.0's in the TK40 for about 2 weeks, folling this turbo test, I removed the cells from the light and their open circuit voltage was between 1.275V and 1.278V on all cells. Actually most measured 1.276V and 1.277V with one outlier at 1.275V and two at 1.278V
• A freshly charged 4.0 cell measures 1.344V open circuit, a week off the charger, stored at room temperature.
• I will start running some capacity tests tonight.
• Currently, they can be had for 5 to 7 bux per 4 pack of AA's
• With the price being so low for a LSD cell, compared to all the other LSD products on the market, added to the fact that this product no longer seems to be in the Rayovac catalog, it would seem that Rayovac is / had dumped these things cheap to get them off their inventory. Once they're gone, they're gone, and then we'll be having to pay higher prices again for other product, or... there's something wrong with them and that's why Rayovac is dumping them.
• I find it hard to believe Rayovac would dump a defective product on the market, so it seems more likely that they may have infringed on an existing patent and had to drop the product to avoid law suits.

What factual information does anybody know about these things?


If they are any good, I hate to see other CPF'ers miss out on the bargin, but if they have some sort of inherent problem, we should warn people to stay away.


TIA!!

 

[R@ndom]

Hi folks. I've bee searching the forums looking for factual information about the New but now obsolete Rayovac 4.0 NiMh AA and AAA batteries.

I've found thread after thread where people seem to make assumptions about their chemistry, construction, and capacities.

To be fair, a great deal of the confusion comes from the misleading ad copy on their packaging and complete lack of information about them at Rayovac's web site.

I see enough differences documented between Rayovac Hybrids and these 4.0 to make me doubt they're identical, yet without evidence, most folks around here are assuming that they're identical to the Hybrids.

I'm looking for facts so that I can make an intelligent and informed decision regarding these battteries or Sanyo Eneloops. Has anyone studied this new battery?

Here's what I *think* I know about them so far...

• I was looking around Rayovac's web site and found patent documents for their build in charge rate controller (IC3) I think they called it. It does seem to be in all three battery designs IC3, Hybrid, and 4.0 products.
• I can find no mention at all of their supposedly patented Lithium Hydroxide coating on the anode which helps the cell have a lower self discharge rate.
• This lithium hydroxide coating attribute seems to be confined to the 4.0 product so far as I know, yet the Hybrid product claims to hold a charge for a year, whereas the 4.0 product claims to hold 80% charge for six months. Could be just weasel words, but I wonder just the same.
• Maybe the 4.0 product is less expensive to manufacture?
• Rayovac Hybrid and 4.0 AA cells look identical to one another from the outside, and both are made in China.
• The weight is within normal variance 27.5gm Hybrid, and 27.2gm to 27.6gm for the 4.0 cells
• They seem to be able to put out a lot of current without getting hot., although I've not measured the extent of that capacity.
• Running the TK40 on Turbo, the 4.0's stayed cool as a cucumber, while the light itself got very hot eventually. After using the 4.0's in the TK40 for about 2 weeks, folling this turbo test, I removed the cells from the light and their open circuit voltage was between 1.275V and 1.278V on all cells. Actually most measured 1.276V and 1.277V with one outlier at 1.275V and two at 1.278V
• A freshly charged 4.0 cell measures 1.344V open circuit, a week off the charger, stored at room temperature.
• I will start running some capacity tests tonight.
• Currently, they can be had for 5 to 7 bux per 4 pack of AA's
• With the price being so low for a LSD cell, compared to all the other LSD products on the market, added to the fact that this product no longer seems to be in the Rayovac catalog, it would seem that Rayovac is / had dumped these things cheap to get them off their inventory. Once they're gone, they're gone, and then we'll be having to pay higher prices again for other product, or... there's something wrong with them and that's why Rayovac is dumping them.
• I find it hard to believe Rayovac would dump a defective product on the market, so it seems more likely that they may have infringed on an existing patent and had to drop the product to avoid law suits.

What factual information does anybody know about these things?


If they are any good, I hate to see other CPF'ers miss out on the bargin, but if they have some sort of inherent problem, we should warn people to stay away.


TIA!!

They're not obsolete. They are relabeled ROV hybrids (slightly crapper eneloops)

 

[Marduke]

To summarize, Eneloops are still better cells...

 

[kwkarth]

I am not taking issue with anything you guys are saying, just point me to somebody's test data.

Based upon what factual evidence, how do you know what you say is true?

R@ndom, why do you say they're not obsoete? Are they still in Rayovac's catalog? Please show me.
Marduke, I take no issue with what you say, just show me why you say that.

Thanks guys!

 

[Marduke]

Eneloops have lower internal resistance, higher voltage under load, lower selfdischarge, and have proven to be more robust than any other LSD cell when it comes to abuse and longevity. Data is scattered over dozens of threads and hundreds of inidividual user experiences.

Also keep in mind there are only a few factories that make LSD cells, and the majority are made by the same original three companies- Panisonic, Sanyo, and Yuasa-Delta. Most brands are just rebrands of one of those 3 companies.

While cheaper LSD cells may offer a good value for the money, and operate much better then regular NiMH cells, Eneloops remain the leader of the LSD pack.

 

[davidt1]

I have both Eneloops and ROV hybrids. The ROV hybrids worked fine for a few months. Then they had to be recharged every 2 weeks. I no longer use them. Now I use Eneloops only.

 

[kwkarth]

Eneloops have lower internal resistance, higher voltage under load, lower selfdischarge, and have proven to be more robust than any other LSD cell when it comes to abuse and longevity. Data is scattered over dozens of threads and hundreds of inidividual user experiences.

Also keep in mind there are only a few factories that make LSD cells, and the majority are made by the same original three companies- Panisonic, Sanyo, and Yuasa-Delta. Most brands are just rebrands of one of those 3 companies.

While cheaper LSD cells may offer a good value for the money, and operate much better then regular NiMH cells, Eneloops remain the leader of the LSD pack.

Thanks for the info Marduke. I've read probably every thread I can find here about LSD cells, and I actually found a couple of mentions of the Rayovac 4.0 cells vs. Sanyo Eneloops. One thing I haven't found is a clear discussion about Rayovac 4.0 vs Rayovac Hybrid. I've never taken issue with Eneloop being top of the heap for most carefree and best performing LSD cell, but I'm not sure how up to date that info is kept. I'm also really curious about why Rayovac seems to have dropped this battery after only a year on the market. And where did the hybrid go? and why isn't the distribution of the Eneloop greater?... I'm beginning to think that LSD batteries work so well, that battery companies are beginning to worry that LSD's will take too much market share away from primary alkies. They make lots of scratch from selling alkalines.

 

[kwkarth]

I have both Eneloops and ROV hybrids. The ROV hybrids worked fine for a few months. Then they had to be recharged every 2 weeks. I no longer use them. Now I use Eneloops only.

What kind of charger did you use?

 

[Marduke]

As stated previously, every indication thus far points towards 4.0's simply being relabled Hybrids.

I don't know if they were ever listed on the website, but their new packaged Hybrids still are. Perhaps the 4.0 packaging simply got canned for misleading advertising.

But who cares? LSD are still available elsewhere for good prices. I recently got 6 packs of Duraloops for $4.50 per 4-pack.

 

[davidt1]

What kind of charger did you use?

A small, quick charger. Charging time is between 2-6 hours. Both types of batteries go through the same charger.

 

[Black Rose]

As stated previously, every indication thus far points towards 4.0's simply being relabled Hybrids.

That was verified by someone "in the know" late last year I believe.

It's in the original Rayovac 4.0 thread.

 

[kwkarth]

As stated previously, every indication thus far points towards 4.0's simply being relabled Hybrids.

I don't know if they were ever listed on the website, but their new packaged Hybrids still are. Perhaps the 4.0 packaging simply got canned for misleading advertising.

But who cares? LSD are still available elsewhere for good prices. I recently got 6 packs of Duraloops for $4.50 per 4-pack.

Tell me about the Duraloops. I've never seen them in a store.

 

[kwkarth]

A small, quick charger. Charging time is between 2-6 hours. Both types of batteries go through the same charger.

So the eneloops are still going strong, but the hybrids no longer hold a charge?

 

[45/70]

... I'm beginning to think that LSD batteries work so well, that battery companies are beginning to worry that LSD's will take too much market share away from primary alkies. They make lots of scratch from selling alkalines.

I've suggested this a couple times. I'm sure this has a whole lot to do with it.

Take a look at Energizer. What do they make? For the most part, alkaline batteries. Sanyo, who developed the first, and seemingly best LSD technology, is a vary broad ranged manufactuerer. They make all matter of electronic devices. From their view, it's not going to hurt them at all to come up with a superior rechargeable battery cell. Companies like Energizer, on the other hand, unless they come up with a better plan than they seem to have (like bringing to market crappy NiMH cells that don't really work, so folks go back to alkalines), is going to be SOL.

I've often wondered, as you have suggested, if there isn't some sort of legal battle going on behind the scenes between these two. And then, there are all the other players in the game as well.

Alkaline battery cells have been a multibillion dollar industry for years. Have you ever been in a public parking lot, and not seen a couple alkaline cells somebody just dumped out of their MP3 player? I can't imagine change is going to be easy, and I'm sure the average Joe isn't going to be aware of what all is going on behind the scenes.

I might add, that I pretty much quit using alkaline's in the early 80's in favor of NiCd's. No, the runtimes weren't as good, but the performance was better. Cost really had little to do with it, although an added benefit. I've really never looked back since. With LSD technology, I think more people will come around, sooner or later. Again, it won't be easy. Some companies will go under, jobs will be lost and so on, but I don't really see it turning out any other way, in the end.

Dave

 

[Marduke]

Tell me about the Duraloops. I've never seen them in a store.

Duraloops is the slang name for Duracell branded Eneloops. There are also Durahybrids which are the Duracell branded cells of the same make as the ROV Hybrids.

Both varieties (made in Japan and China, respectively) are much mure common B&M than Eneloops, which more often have to be purchased online.

 

[kwkarth]

Duraloops is the slang name for Duracell branded Eneloops. There are also Durahybrids which are the Duracell branded cells of the same make as the ROV Hybrids.

Both varieties (made in Japan and China, respectively) are much mure common B&M than Eneloops, which more often have to be purchased online.

Gotchya. Thanks!

 

[MorePower]

As stated previously, every indication thus far points towards 4.0's simply being relabled Hybrids.

Yep.

I don't know if they were ever listed on the website, but their new packaged Hybrids still are. Perhaps the 4.0 packaging simply got canned for misleading advertising.

4.0 was a product line (branding, if you will) created for a specific customer. After selling at that customer for a bit, distribution was actuallyexpanded. They were not "canned for misleading advertising."

 

[davidt1]

So the eneloops are still going strong, but the hybrids no longer hold a charge?

That is correct.

 

[kwkarth]

I've suggested this a couple times. I'm sure this has a whole lot to do with it.

Take a look at Energizer. What do they make? For the most part, alkaline batteries. Sanyo, who developed the first, and seemingly best LSD technology, is a vary broad ranged manufactuerer. They make all matter of electronic devices. From their view, it's not going to hurt them at all to come up with a superior rechargeable battery cell. Companies like Energizer, on the other hand, unless they come up with a better plan than they seem to have (like bringing to market crappy NiMH cells that don't really work, so folks go back to alkalines), is going to be SOL.

I've often wondered, as you have suggested, if there isn't some sort of legal battle going on behind the scenes between these two. And then, there are all the other players in the game as well.

Alkaline battery cells have been a multibillion dollar industry for years. Have you ever been in a public parking lot, and not seen a couple alkaline cells somebody just dumped out of their MP3 player? I can't imagine change is going to be easy, and I'm sure the average Joe isn't going to be aware of what all is going on behind the scenes.

I might add, that I pretty much quit using alkaline's in the early 80's in favor of NiCd's. No, the runtimes weren't as good, but the performance was better. Cost really had little to do with it, although an added benefit. I've really never looked back since. With LSD technology, I think more people will come around, sooner or later. Again, it won't be easy. Some companies will go under, jobs will be lost and so on, but I don't really see it turning out any other way, in the end.

Dave

Well said 45/70!

I've tried many times over the years to adopt any rechargeable technology to replace all of the primaries I use, and was an early adopter of every new technology that hit the streets. Nothing up till this point has really made sense for my useage patterns, until the advent of low self discharge cells. I tend to use devices sporadically and then not use that device for many weeks. I want it to work when I grab it. My gripe with primaries, besides cost factors, which really aren't a big issue for me, is the propensity for alkies to leak....I reeealy hate that! Then there's the issue of energy density. For a short while, I thought L91's were the answer, and to my chagrin, I found they're not the right answer for many things.

It looks to me at this point like lsd's are the right (best available currently) solution for the broadest range of applications today. So now that I'm finally coming to that party, it looks almost like everybody else is starting to go home! This will be an interesting (and painful) battle to watch unfold. I hope the consumer and the environment finally win one, instead of the big corporations.

 

[kwkarth]

Yep.



4.0 was a product line (branding, if you will) created for a specific customer. After selling at that customer for a bit, distribution was actuallyexpanded. They were not "canned for misleading advertising."

Interesting.
What customer? Why doesn't the product show up on Rayovac's site?