Rayovac hybrid performance question

[gnopgip]

Newbie post, but I didn't find anything about this on my search.

I have several older Rayovac hybrids that have not been taken care of in the best way...at least not in the way I have found by lurking in this forum. I now have a Maha c9000 charger, and my rayovacs are holding around 1600-1700 mah of charge after a break-in cycle. I plan to run some more cycles to see if this will improve, but then again, it might not.

I've noticed some members tossing out their batteries when they can't hold 80% capacity, but I hate throwing things away! My question: Even with a lower capactiy, would these batteries still have the quality of an LSD battery? Could I relegate them to "lower status devices" and still expect them to hold a charge for a year? Or does the fact that they are showing signs of wear mean that they will start discharging more rapidly?

 

[Mr Happy]

Can you relegate them to "lower status devices"? Yes, certainly.

Will they still hold their charge as well as when new? I don't know. Since you hold the cells, you will be the best judge of that. You can try them in computer mice, remote controls, clocks, etc. and see how they work out. If they don't work out, you will have your answer.

 

[WildChild]

I have purchased a pack of 4 Rayovac Hybrids in the past and I'm not really a fan of them. The first set of Eneloop I have, purchased in 2006, still haven't lost a bit of capacity and perform like new. On the other hand, the Hybrids purchased in 2007 have a higher internal resistance and tend to become much hotter when charging and discharging. Their capacity dropped to around 1850 mAh and they self-discharge much faster than the Eneloop and Duraloops.

 

[gnopgip]

I too seem to think the Rayovacs aren't as great as they were advertised. But then again, they were not well taken care of.

I've been jumping all over the Duraloop deals on Pennywise lately. And now that I can properly break them in, I am excited to see how they will perform. My wife gives me grief that for all the money I spent on new batteries and my Maha charger, I probably could've bought a year's worth of alkalines. But now it makes so much sense why my stock of Energizer 2500s seemed like crap (Because they were!)

I'll try the hybrids out on clocks, etc like you suggested. I was just hoping for a quick answer if someone already had experience with these batteries and their properties once they showed signs of crapping out. There are those who keep their batteries in storage up to a year and run diagnostics on them--they would be the perfect ones to do this. I unfortunately don't have that luxury or patience to do that.

Thanks

 

[Mr Happy]

I think others have tried Hybrids and found them to taper off in performance sooner than Eneloops. I can't answer your question directly as I never bought any great number of Hybrids myself and have no experience of how they last.

 

[Black Rose]

I was using my Hybrid cells in Wii remotes for awhile, but now use them in radios, mice, and other low drain devices.

My cells are about 2 1/2 years old and have been charged in Maha chargers.

The last break-in I did yielded an average capacity of 1924 mAh.

 

[TakeTheActive]

Newbie post, but I didn't find anything about this on my search...

:welcome:​

CLICK on my Sig Line LINK and read about 'Storage Box Queens'.

...I have several older Rayovac hybrids that have not been taken care of in the best way...

​

...I was just hoping for a quick answer if someone already had experience with these batteries and their properties once they showed signs of crapping out...

Again, CLICK on my Sig Line LINK, read about 'Impedance Check Voltage' and post your results.

​

 

[gnopgip]

In the Storage box queens section, how do you manually set those parameters? From what I can gather, the only way for the Maha to cut off properly when charging at 0.1C is to use the break in cycle. I didn't think that you could charge that slowly otherwise and not run into problems since the charger won't stop automatically.

Once the charging is done, how then do you get it to discharge at a specified amperage but terminate at a specified voltage? I don't see that being possible using my Maha.

 

[Mr Happy]

In the Storage box queens section, how do you manually set those parameters? From what I can gather, the only way for the Maha to cut off properly when charging at 0.1C is to use the break in cycle. I didn't think that you could charge that slowly otherwise and not run into problems since the charger won't stop automatically.

Once the charging is done, how then do you get it to discharge at a specified amperage but terminate at a specified voltage? I don't see that being possible using my Maha.

To charge a battery to 30% you do it manually. On the C9000 for example, if you have a 2000 mAh cell you charge it until 600 mAh has been fed into it and then manually pull the cell. If you have a power tool battery pack you figure out how long it takes for a full charge and then manually stop he charging after about 1/3 of the time.

For discharging, you can just let the C9000 stop automatically. The C9000 stops the discharge automatically when it sees 0.9 V, and the difference between 0.9 V and 1.0 V on discharge is negligible. For all practical purposes they are the same.

However, for low self-discharge cells like Hybrids, this advice is less important. For those cells, you can store them fully charged and you don't need to fuss about so much.

 

[Linger]

I have hybrid 'C' cells, and will speak well of them. They have often been subject to burst discharges of ~4.2A, occasionally I've asked more of them (10A, very short). Usually the cells get a nice charge up, then infrequent abuse over the weekend or months of the discharge.
Though they lose out to eneloops (my only comparison) for LSD, they definitely retain a charge well. The hybrids retain a high capacity. Most importantly, the internal impedance seems to have remained low for the battery sets put out a very nice 'high' mode when called upon.
So they do well for me.

 

[gnopgip]

To charge a battery to 30% you do it manually. On the C9000 for example, if you have a 2000 mAh cell you charge it until 600 mAh has been fed into it and then manually pull the cell. If you have a power tool battery pack you figure out how long it takes for a full charge and then manually stop he charging after about 1/3 of the time.

For discharging, you can just let the C9000 stop automatically. The C9000 stops the discharge automatically when it sees 0.9 V, and the difference between 0.9 V and 1.0 V on discharge is negligible. For all practical purposes they are the same.

However, for low self-discharge cells like Hybrids, this advice is less important. For those cells, you can store them fully charged and you don't need to fuss about so much.

Looking at the Silverfox protocol, and the limitations of the C9000, I suppose the safest way to do this is to start the Break-in cycle until it starts discharging. At some point pull them, and manually set the discharge rate 0.5C until empty, then discharge again at 100ma until empty, and then repeat.

Would this be close enough or is there a comparable thing to do on the refresh/analyze or cycle functions? Or should I just do the break-in function several times--I just hate how it takes 38-40h to complete one cycle. I was also worried about terminating properly when charging at 0.1C. At least with the break-in function, I can count on it stopping at 16h.

 

[Mr Happy]

Looking at the Silverfox protocol, and the limitations of the C9000, I suppose the safest way to do this is to start the Break-in cycle until it starts discharging. At some point pull them, and manually set the discharge rate 0.5C until empty, then discharge again at 100ma until empty, and then repeat.

Would this be close enough or is there a comparable thing to do on the refresh/analyze or cycle functions? Or should I just do the break-in function several times--I just hate how it takes 38-40h to complete one cycle. I was also worried about terminating properly when charging at 0.1C. At least with the break-in function, I can count on it stopping at 16h.

I'm confused about what protocol we are talking about here. Can you post a link to the relevant post?

 

[gnopgip]

This would be in the sig links that TTA likes to tout. His links are helpful, but it is hard to find what you're looking for without some direction first just because of the sheer volume.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1277992&postcount=8

 

[Linger]

it is hard to find what you're looking for without some direction first just because of the sheer volume.

+1 And that is an excellent time to post a question, when you've read enough to specify what you're seeking: your question should then be so specific that any later google searches *should* pull up your question and subsequent answer.

 

[Mr Happy]

This would be in the sig links that TTA likes to tout. His links are helpful, but it is hard to find what you're looking for without some direction first just because of the sheer volume.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1277992&postcount=8

Ah, I see. Unfortunately, that kind of protocol does take a long time. Only you can say whether it is worth it, or whether to just recycle the batteries and buy new ones.

To charge at 0.1C for 16 hours you do have to use the Break-in cycle on the C9000. If you tried to charge using the normal charge cycle at say 200 mA on the C9000 you may find the charger terminates before the 16 hours are up, not after. This is because the charger may terminate when the voltage reaches 1.47 V.

The two parts of the recovery process that are most helpful are the 16 hour charging at 0.1C and the 100 mA discharge down to 0.8 V. There are various ways of doing a deep discharge like this, including putting the cell in a single cell flashlight with an incandescent bulb and letting it run until the bulb goes out.

But any way you cut it, it is going to take about one day for a charge/discharge cycle, and if you need to do this 50 times like Silverfox reported it is going to take 50 days. I don't see myself having that kind of patience.

 

[gnopgip]

LOL, 50 days is somewhat of a committment. Of course worse than the time that it takes to run 50 cycles is that the charger is also tied up and can't charge other good batteries.

The flashlight trick is a good idea, since all my maglites are sitting around unused now.

I've been slowly convincing myself that it's just easier to buy new batteries and start over the right way. I talked myself into getting another 12-pack of duraloops today from Pennywise!

Thanks for the advice

 

[45/70]

The flashlight trick is a good idea, since all my maglites are sitting around unused now.

Just to clarify, when Mr H suggested running your cells down in an incandescent light, he specified the use of a single cell light. This is important, should you ever decide to do this in the future. If you were to discharge the cells in a multi cell light, you would most likely run into a reverse charging situation which would add irreversible damage to one, or more cells.

I pretty much do what you're planning gnopgip, anymore. While it is possible to refurbish cells that have been neglected, it takes a lot of time and in most cases, I figure it just really isn't worth the hassle. Having some experience in cell revival, I know that the success rate can be very low, as well. I do keep and use a few under performing cells in clocks and such, however. It just makes sense in some low current drain applications, not to use a "good" cell. They're better used where you need them, IMO.


To me, the benefit of owning and properly using a charger/analyzer such as the C9000, is in using it to prevent damage to cells, rather than attempting to repair it. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't do both.

Dave

 

[Battery Guy]

... since all my maglites are sitting around unused now.

Sounds like it's hotwire modding time! Can't let those Mag bodies sit around and go to waste!

 

[TakeTheActive]

This would be in the sig links that TTA likes to tout. His links are helpful, but it is hard to find what you're looking for without some direction first just because of the sheer volume...

Try finding the answer to your questions via SEARCH alone and see how long it takes. :shakehead

My Sig Line LINKs are designed to get a Newbie from ZERO knowledge to a basic level of understanding how NiCD/NiMH cells and their chargers work. Instead of having to SEARCH through thousands of threads and read hundreds of posts over the course of days / weeks / months, you only have to read 'Single Posts' / 'Tidbits' (in Definition, Maintenance, Theory - possibly Cell Recovery) extracted from the thousands of threads in the CPF Archives. Include some chapters from Battery University and Batteries in a Portable World: Battery FAQ and a Newbie should understand the terms and begin to form a picture of the theory and how it applies.

It sounds to me like you don't have the interest, or patience, in investing much of YOUR time learning theory and would prefer to ask questions and have others individually (quickly) teach you. :thinking:

...I was just hoping for a quick answer...

...I unfortunately don't have that luxury or patience to do that...

I point folks to my Sig Line LINKs to help them LEARN, hopefully in a shorter amount of time than it took me, by providing 'shortcuts'. I don't see that as bragging or boasting.

The 'Quick Answer' as to what to do with your 'at or nearing *CRAP*' hybrid cells is RECYCLE them (as in DISPOSE of them at a recycling center, not CYCLE them on your charger), buy new Eneloops and maintain them with the MH-C9000 as instructed in the Maha MANAUL (sic ).

+1 And that is an excellent time to post a question, when you've read enough to specify what you're seeking...

IMO, gnopgip hasn't yet 'grabbed his favorite beverage and sat down for a few hours of reading' because his follow-up questions are on basic topics, covered MANY times already here in CPF 'Batteries Included'. AND, he still hasn't posted his ICVs to see if it's even worth the time attempting to revive his 'neglected and abused' cells.

I'm sorry, but the use of the words 'tout' and 'sheer volume' ruffled my delicate feathers - instead of being appreciative of my efforts (of assembling the information in my Sig Line LINKs and pointing him where to BEGIN reading) and then going off reading and learning the basics, the OP returning complaining and asking more 'Asked-and-Answered' basic questions. And, as many of the regulars here know, I prefer helping a person willing to do some of their own 'legwork' and not just 'spoon-feed' them the answers. What I dislike doing is repeatedly typing in rote answers, which is why I point folks to specific topics in my Sig Line LINKs instead.

If the OP hadn't made his 'tout' / 'sheer volume' remark, I most likely would have just ignored this thread and moved on. Thus, after this quick RANT, I'll gladly bow out of this thread...

 

[Linger]

IMO,

Point taken