Real problems with Ultrafire Li-Ion Batteries - or NOT?

[CandleFranky]

I've bought a few Li-Ion Ultrafire and Trustfire batteries from Dealextreme. No real problems after some testing, so far so good. And by the way, the Ultrafire 18650 gets lots of positive reviews on Dealextreme. But in this forum I sometimes read "don't buy Ultrafire, they are bad".

My question: Are they really bad?

 

[VidPro]

use the word Inconsistant it sounds better than cheap junk that wont last, is overrated in capacity, can have large resistance differences, and . . .
so that is all i am saying, Inconsistant, anything else might not be correct for one or the other because its inconsistant

 

[Probedude]

use the word Inconsistant it sounds better than cheap junk that wont last, is overrated in capacity, can have large resistance differences, and . . .
so that is all i am saying, Inconsistant, anything else might not be correct for one or the other because its inconsistant

Do the Trustfires fall into the same category?

 

[Beastmaster]

And I'm one of the ones with an inconsistent batch.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=186165

I had one overheat and vent. The end result was that the vented one was literally shorter than others.

Get AW's. Those are definitely worth it. You'll likely never have an issue with them.

On a side note - I have more luck and reliability with the cheapie unprotected 16340's that I get in bulk from Hong Kong than I have had with UltraFires. Sad but true....out of a batch of 58 that I got in from HK, none of them are bad and have outlasted the Ultrafires. I paid 16 bucks per 24 batteries. The shipping though cost me a bit - 20 bucks per 24 batteries. The rest came from various onesie/twosie chargers that I ordered.

-Steve

 

[VidPro]

Do the Trustfires fall into the same category?

i dont know, i have none of them yet, LGs are consistant

Off topic:
One life lesson that brings to mind is , anyone who says "trust me" is not to be trusted after all how many people not conning you , would bother with asking you to trust them

 

[CandleFranky]

One life lesson that brings to mind is , anyone who says "trust me" is not to be trusted

1. How can I identify "inconsistant" Li-Ion Batteries? Low V, less power (mA), sometimes exploding? Any ideas?
2. And if this is a question of trust, where should I buy? In the AW-Thread (CPF-Marketplace)? :thinking:

 

[VidPro]

pila, and wolf eyes both have very costly protected cells of very good quality.
AW has more properly rated cells, and has done improvements that increase the safety GREATLY.

but only way right now that i know of to get a LG or sony cell Protected, is to make it yourself.
and without protection, its still going to be inconsistant. so that isnt usually a simple option :-( someday a pack builder will start using them.

just depends on how much money, time , and need, you have, i would use ultrafire cells, and do still, they cost nothing, and i am at a low risk for exploding
how you physically and electrically and temperature , TREAT a cell can be a big difference too, if you built a protected cell from scratch, you would learn what it takes to do that, and how to treat it and all.

ya know it really does come down to Many of these things are being purchaced and pushed, because they are being bought for practically nothing, they have a nice markup, the dealer makes good money, often that doesnt equate to the "best" item and the long lasting item.
but Wallymart is open still for a reason, cheap short term junk is what we buy.

 

[radellaf]

Where o where does one BUY the best brand LG, Molicell, or Sony LiIons?

I'm actually trying to get them for a project at work and the mfgs seem unreachable and the distro houses (arrow, avnet, newark) don't stock li-ion cells.

I am concerned about my Ultrafire cells and they seem to be awful at customer support:

Renard DellaFave to mail


The information did include a question.

I would, at a minimum, request that the technical team get back to me about: are 500 and 1000mA discharge rates within the cell's ratings or not?

On Jan 7, 2008 9:59 PM, New Excite Shop <[email protected]> wrote:

Dear Renard,

Thanks very much for your valuable information. We will pass the your
information to our technical team about the issue. Thanks again for
your support.

Regards,
UltraFire-Shop

On Jan 8, 2008 3:19 AM, Renard DellaFave <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello, I'd like some information regarding the 10440 LiIon batteries I
> bought from your company.
>
> First, I have tested all four on a UBA-4 battery analyzer and get capacities
> of about 300mAh on each (200mA load) -- they are labeled 500mAh.
>
> If they are mis-labeled or over-represented, I actually do not have much
> problem with that.
>
> However, I have learned more about LiIon cells, and a drop in capacity below
> 80% for new cells can indicate internal damage, and these are at 60% _if_
> good ones would indeed test at 500mAh.
>
> Also, I would like a data sheet or other indication of max. rated discharge
> current, as I have been assuming 2C is OK and if not I need to know.

 

[VidPro]

well you will be happy to know the 10440s are only 300ma at most

if its 18650 Cells, totally unprotected, LGs can be purchaced on e-bay, from batteryspace.com and batteryjunction.com
but make sure what you get is a real LG, or your right back where you started.
sonys can be snagged out of genuine sony camera batteries, costing buku bucks.

i dont think either of them sells a 10440 cell.

emolis and 123(brand) cells are being snagged out of tool packs themselves, and robot and RC sellers have some of them.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I like the button top that the Ultrafire 17670's have. I have two of them I got to try out. One will charge up to 4.19 volts the other to 4.17 volts. The 4.17 cell drop voltage fairly fast, resting. The 4.19 stays at that voltage. Inconsistent for sure.

Bill

 

[jirik_cz]

I have experiences with one pair of Trustfire 2500mAh 18650 batteries and I'm satisfied with them so far. In Raidfire Spear I get 7% longer runtime with them, than with AW 2200mAh. Maybe I'm just lucky ???

 

[Beastmaster]

Well, if they aren't protected and/or the mAh rating is accurate, the Trustfire will outperform the AW's by a tad. The Trustfires are higher in mAh by 10%. So an actual use of 7% isn't all that off.

-Steve

I have experiences with one pair of Trustfire 2500mAh 18650 batteries and I'm satisfied with them so far. In Raidfire Spear I get 7% longer runtime with them, than with AW 2200mAh. Maybe I'm just lucky ???

 

[Fallingwater]

My question: Are they really bad?

In my experience they're pretty good. The capacity is overrated (slightly in case of the 18650s, much more for RCR123s), but they work well enough.
You might get the occasional dud, but just contact DX and they'll ship replacements.

 

[mdocod]

the problem I see is as follows:
lets say you get a pair of <insert X-fire cells here> and one of them will only charge to 4.07V and the other will only charge to 4.17V, but both cells technically work fine. Will DX send a replacement for a cell that is technically working *fine* by their standards?? When in reality the one that will only hold 4.07V only has about 35% of it's cycle life remaining. (compared to a cell in "good" new condition). The problem I see with this is that you may be "forced" to live with a sub-par cell. You may have payed less, but if you actually get that much less than what are you really saving going this route? Are you willing to use cells that are so substantially mis-matched in a multi-cell application?

What if they both charge to 4.20V, but one of them seems to have 2250mAH while the other is only delivering 1750mAH... They are both working *fine* so far as you can tell, and they aren't likely going to send a replacement cell if it is working. But here we have a pair of cell that could never really work together correctly in a multi-cell application unless they were wired in parallel. So you might end up having to order more cells anyways. The other question is, if they are both the same size and both charge to 4.20V, then WHY is one of them so much lower capacity than the other, this is an issue of concern as it raises the question of what is "wrong" with the cell? Is it something that could increase the potential of a vent-with-flame event? Maybe, maybe not, is it worth finding out?

In all seriousness, I have my hunches that the <X-fire> brand cells are factory rejects and/or partially used cells being re-packaged and re-sold under the <X-fire> names. I have no way to prove this, but it would explain a lot.

 

[Fallingwater]

the problem I see is as follows:
lets say you get a pair of <insert X-fire cells here> and one of them will only charge to 4.07V and the other will only charge to 4.17V, but both cells technically work fine. Will DX send a replacement for a cell that is technically working *fine* by their standards?

They replaced rather more expensive items for me and all I had to do was ask politely.

In all seriousness, I have my hunches that the <X-fire> brand cells are factory rejects and/or partially used cells being re-packaged and re-sold under the <X-fire> names. I have no way to prove this, but it would explain a lot.

I seriously doubt this.

 

[mdocod]

then why do so many of the cells received by CPFers refuse to hold a 4.20V charge?

 

[KenAnderson]

The only Li-on I've really had trouble with was Wolf Eyes. I just kept loosing one cell out of three in my 24W. Once I switched to AW's, no more issues. I went through quite a few WE's before I gave up. Don't really know why it happens.

Ken

 

[DM51]

My question: Are they really bad?

Yes, they are really bad. Do you want it any plainer than that?

There is some pretty irresponsible posting in this thread IMO. There have been numerous threads about the unreliability and inconsistency of Ultrafire cells. SilverFox has tested and reported on them. Many others have reported their negative experiences with them. There have been more negative reports about Ultrafire and Trustfire Li-Ion cells than any other brand of Li-Ion cells, in fact more than all the others put together.

If you buy one of these cells, you may get a good one. It may work for a while without problems. It may not be dangerous. It may not vent on you. But sooner or later, it will let you down. You will have wasted your money. You still want to take a chance on one? Really?

Do you seriously think a positive review on the DX website counts for anything at all? Of course it doesn't. Please pay attention to the people who know what they are talking about here.

VidPro and mdocod have got it right, and for others to persist in posting in favour of these discredited cells is just plain irresponsible.

 

[CandleFranky]

Yes, they are really bad. Do you want it any plainer than that?

Thank you for your clear words. I will not use such cheaps cells anymore, because it seems, that Li-Ion is dangerous enough with high quality cells.

But which cells should I use instead? I have ordered a few items @AW
in the CPFMarketPlace. Are they okay? Or I am in danger to get fake cells, perhaps Ultrafire-cells in a AW-package?

Another question: mdocod writes, that if cells only charge to 4.07V, they are old. Is this true? Btw, how long can I use Li-Ion cells?

 

[DM51]

AW cells are highly recommended. If you order direct from AW, or from Lighthound, you will get the genuine article (that Lighthound link is to the AW 18650 protected Li-Ion). Make sure you always order protected cells.

mdocod knows what he is talking about (his Li-Ion Incan Guide is well worth reading). The example he gives in post #14 above is of a cell that did not take a full charge, compared to one that did. In that specific case, the cell was dying, but there can be other reasons for cells not charging correctly (a faulty or inappropriate charger being an obvious one).

Li-Ion cells will last about 800 charge-discharge cycles if you treat them well and with care. They should be good for at least 3 years, maybe longer.