Rechargeable suggestions for Surefire 6P/Malkoff..

cruzmisl

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Dec 13, 2007
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Hi,
I'm looking to buy several rechargeable lithium CR123's to use in my Surefire 6P with a Malkoff drop in. I'm not sure what the best options are or where to get it. Also I want to be sure whatever I buy will fit.

Any suggestions on a charger/batteries?

Thanks a ton!
Joe
 
The rechargeable Li-ion batteries I bought
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=170420

The battery charger I bought
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=142521

Good Information about Li-ion batteries
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone.htm

Must read post #1 before playing with rechargeable Li-ion, they can be a little tricky. Remember the laptop batteries that were catching fire and exploding, they were li-ion rechargeable. You just have to use caution, and they are very safe.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161536

Nice short thread with some more info about charging Li-ions, read post 3
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=178047

Voltage = capacity left in rechargeable Li-ion
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=147007

There are many more experienced people here that will jump in, but this is a good start.

Charles
 
I'm using a single AW 17670 rechargeable cell (essentially 2x the length of a 123) in a Z2 with Malkoff drop-in and that seems to work very well. Minimum rated voltage on the Malkoff is 3.8v IIRC and a rechargeable cell should stay at or above that for most of the discharge cycle as long as the load isn't too high.

That said, two of the AW 123 rechargeables might give even longer life (the higher initial voltage would let you run the cells down further before under-load voltage drops below 3.8v), haven't had time to test. A lot of folks here use the AW rechargeables, either ordered directly from AW in Hong Kong or through local dealers.
 
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Then I would definitely go for at least four of these (although the price for shipping is the same for one to six cells, so you might as well buy six! :devil:)

Also go for the charger that chas9rr linked to above, it comes with the spacers required to charge these cells, and for an extra $2.50, you can get a 12V car cord.

6- R123A @ $6.00 = $36.00
shipping = $4.50
charger = $15.00
12V cord = $2.50
shipping = $3.50
total = $61.50
guilt-free lumens = priceless! :twothumbs
 
Thanks for the replies. I think I'll order AW's batteries. Seem to be popular.

One last question, will the rechargeable's last as long as primaries in my application?
 
Aw rcr123 cells are the way to go. I would suggest the Pila IBC charger however.
 
One last question, will the rechargeable's last as long as primaries in my application?

Sorry, lithium primary cells, especially at low drain rates and in smaller sizes, still have higher overall energy density. The total stored energy in a 3.7V RCR123 is a little better than half of the stored energy in a CR123 primary.

On CR123s, the light would continue to dim down when the cells are really dying, with the protected rechargeable cells, the light will suddenly shut off from full output to nothing when the batteries need to be recharged, the protection circuit does this to prevent you from over-discharging and ruining the cells. it would be much better for the health of the cells if you tried not to let this happen, try to charge up before the protection circuit kicks in and shuts it down...

To achieve runtimes that match that of 2xCR123 LED lights, in a similar, size package, I suggest looking into 18650 powered options... Like taking your tailcap and bezel, installing them on a 1x18650 FM or Leef body, then getting some AW protected 18650 cells, and a MalkOff M30 (or use the M60, and get much longer runtime but with diminishing output through the run, this would have even longer runtime than 2xCR123), Or one of the many other modules specified for use on a single 18650 on the market... Alternatively, there are many production flashlights available now that run on an 18650.

Eric
 
Too bad you didn't have a 3 cell option such as a Surefire C3 Host. I run my M60 with x2 17500's and it runs in regulation until the voltage falls below 3.8 which is 1.9v per cell and we all know what a deep discharge would do. It is getting in the dangerous area of unprotected cells and would ruin the cells. So with that being said I always think of my M60 as being fully regulated and it is impressive of spill, throw and output.

I just checked my 17500's and get a reading of 3.86v and 3.88v of rested voltage respectively. So, after a couple days use of runnning my dog on the range it is still running in regulation. I monitor my cells pretty closely and never never let them fall within the range of a deep dicharge.


"The input voltage is 3.8 - 9 volts. Below 3.8 volts it will drop out of regulation and run direct drive. The output is 235+ lumens. The current draw is only 750ma at 6 volts."


Dave
 
Sorry, lithium primary cells, especially at low drain rates and in smaller sizes, still have higher overall energy density. The total stored energy in a 3.7V RCR123 is a little better than half of the stored energy in a CR123 primary.

On CR123s, the light would continue to dim down when the cells are really dying, with the protected rechargeable cells, the light will suddenly shut off from full output to nothing when the batteries need to be recharged, the protection circuit does this to prevent you from over-discharging and ruining the cells. it would be much better for the health of the cells if you tried not to let this happen, try to charge up before the protection circuit kicks in and shuts it down...

To achieve runtimes that match that of 2xCR123 LED lights, in a similar, size package, I suggest looking into 18650 powered options... Like taking your tailcap and bezel, installing them on a 1x18650 FM or Leef body, then getting some AW protected 18650 cells, and a MalkOff M30 (or use the M60, and get much longer runtime but with diminishing output through the run, this would have even longer runtime than 2xCR123), Or one of the many other modules specified for use on a single 18650 on the market... Alternatively, there are many production flashlights available now that run on an 18650.

Eric

I wonder if it's possible to build a better protection circuit that would at least go dim for a while before shutting off.

I've used 2x18500 with M60 and I like guilt-free lumens but primaries (3x123) have several important advantages -- better runtime, perhaps brighter however slightly and most importantly, go dim very slowly with the longest tail I have ever seen. I discharged them down as far as possible and it must have been hours.

I have a suspision I will like 2x18650 better than 2x18500 due to increased runtime, they should match and outdo 3x123 primaries while remaining guilt-free lumens....

The disadvantage of primaries, even the cheapest ones can get expensive if the lite is used a lot.

Primaries make great backup cells.

Meanwhile, I am waiting for higher capacity 18650 cells, as I hear AW should have 2500 mAh capacity cells vs. 2200 mAh. Also Panasonic has 2900 mAh but they are unprotected. With two AW cells, the capacity should be 5,000 mAh vs. 3,000 mAh that I currently have and it should put me in a comfortable runtime zone. I think then I could only EDC 1 set of backups cells vs. 2 like now.

Really, runtime of 2x18500 + Malkoff is not bad considering it's not much bigger than MiniMag and gets that much output.

What it comes down to, is pick 2 out of 3:

Size
Runtime
Lumens
 
Let's compute the runtime with 123, 18500 and 18650:

Given Panasonic 123s are 3V and 1600 mAh:

3V * 3 = 9V

9V *1600 mAh = 14.4 W/h

----------------------------------------

For 2x18500, that works out to:

3.7V * 2 = 7.4V

7.4V * 1500 mAh = 11.1 W/h

-----------------------------------------

2x18650:
2*3.7V = 7.4V

7.4 * 2500mAh = 18.5W

So you get about 30% better runtime with 123 primaries than with 18500 but 18650 gets more runtime than either.
Last edited by etc; Today at 01:55 AM.
 
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The units should be Wh, not W/h.

Also, your comparison of 3 x 123A to 2 x 18650 seems to be unequal. Two 18650 cells are the same length as four 123As (16340). Thus, your capacity calculation should compare 4 x 123A to 2 x 18650.

With the Malkoff's 750 mA draw, the 123A voltage will probably sag closer to 2.5V, rather than 3V.

Thus,

2x18500: 2 * 3.7 * 1500 = 11.1 Wh
3x123A: 3 * 2.5V * 1600 mAh = 12 Wh (about 8% greater than 2x18500)

4x123A: 4 * 2.5 * 1600 = 16 Wh
2x18650: 2 * 3.7 * 2500 = 18.5 Wh (about 16% greater than 4x123A)
 
The units should be Wh, not W/h.

Also, your comparison of 3 x 123A to 2 x 18650 seems to be unequal. Two 18650 cells are the same length as four 123As (16340). Thus, your capacity calculation should compare 4 x 123A to 2 x 18650.

With the Malkoff's 750 mA draw, the 123A voltage will probably sag closer to 2.5V, rather than 3V.

Thus,

2x18500: 2 * 3.7 * 1500 = 11.1 Wh
3x123A: 3 * 2.5V * 1600 mAh = 12 Wh (about 8% greater than 2x18500)

4x123A: 4 * 2.5 * 1600 = 16 Wh
2x18650: 2 * 3.7 * 2500 = 18.5 Wh (about 16% greater than 4x123A)

Interesting point you make.
I realized later that the current AW cell is rated at 2200 mAh, so that a more realistic estimate would be:

2x18650: 2 * 3.7 * 2200 = 16.3 Wh

Which is almost identical to 4x123 configuration and is greater than 3x123 of course.

In any case, either 2x18650 or 4x123 is superior to 2x18500 or 3x123 lite.

That much was obvious but now there are numbers to prove it.

I really want to get some nice 18650 cells, with larger capacity for greater runtime. AWs cells are OK. Panasonic has 2900 mAh cells but they are not protected.
 
Too bad you didn't have a 3 cell option such as a Surefire C3 Host. I run my M60 with x2 17500's and it runs in regulation until the voltage falls below 3.8 which is 1.9v per cell and we all know what a deep discharge would do. It is getting in the dangerous area of unprotected cells and would ruin the cells. So with that being said I always think of my M60 as being fully regulated and it is impressive of spill, throw and output.

I just checked my 17500's and get a reading of 3.86v and 3.88v of rested voltage respectively. So, after a couple days use of runnning my dog on the range it is still running in regulation. I monitor my cells pretty closely and never never let them fall within the range of a deep dicharge.


"The input voltage is 3.8 - 9 volts. Below 3.8 volts it will drop out of regulation and run direct drive. The output is 235+ lumens. The current draw is only 750ma at 6 volts."


Dave

Fortunately, the 17500's run out of steam before the voltage gets too low. You should notice significant drop off in output when the cells are reading 3.5 volts or so, each. Periodical checks for voltage is still a good plan.

Bill
 
At the low drain rates of LED modules when driven by 3 or more CR123s, the available watt-hours of CR123s does start to overcome li-ion cells displacing similar space, however... There are some flaws above...

True watt-hour capacity, and estimated are different things. CR123s don't deliver an average 3V into most loads, it's usually a little less. Also, it depends what brand you compare to, as some are far better performers at low drain rates, while others are better at high drain rates, while others pretty much stink at all drain rates.

The "750mA" power consumption of the M60 is based on 6V input. When you run higher voltage configurations (3xCR123/2xli-ion), the power consumption should drop to ~0.5A.

According to SilverFox's CR123 shootout, at 0.5A, the best performing CR123, a Sanyo, delivered ~4.1WH. For 3 of them, that's 12.3WH. Panasonic cells delivered ~3.8WH.

If you moved up to 4 CR123s, obviously the M60 would not work, but say you were using a module with similar power consumption that was compatible with higher input voltages, we could extrapolate that the total WH capacity of 4 cells would be closer to ~18WH assuming the best available cells.

SilverFox's li-ion shootout doesn't have 0.5A tests for the 18500 and 18650 size cells, but here's some rough extrapolations:

[email protected] : 5.2WH per cell, or 10.4WH for 2 cells.
[email protected] : 8WH per cell, or 16WH for 2 cells.

One more important note, the discharge testing for CR123s drags them all the way down to below 1V per cell. So on the 3xCR123 test, a portion of that discharge and available stored energy, is not powering the module in regulation. The discharge testing for li-ion cells cuts off at ~2.5V per cell, so every WH of stored energy on paper is available at a voltage output that is high enough to maintain regulation.

So as I see it, the comparison is 10.4WH vs 12.3WH for 2x18500 vs 3xCR123, and 16WH vs 18WH for 2x18650 vs 4xCR123.


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While the comparison above may be fun to make, it's a moot point. If you use your flashlight on a regular basis, then the cost of operation on those li-ion cells is way lower, even if you do pick up a bunch of extras as spares.

Cost of 6x18500 + Pila IBC charger. $110. This would replace literally thousands of CR123s. Even if you only cycled one set of the cells, 100 times, over a few years, the cost of operation here would drop to the cost of running CR123s.

$110 buys ~70-80 CR123s, give or take.

The WH comparisons are a difference of ~10-15%, the cost of operation for li-ion cells drops to literally a fraction of CR123s with regular use. Taking a 10-15% hit on runtime, to reduce cost of operations by as much as 95%, is a pretty easy decision to make for most people.

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