Red Light Traffic Cameras

[will]

The town, here in Florida, has installed Red Light Cameras at most major intersections. Actually a private company installed them and processes all the violations. Florida cars only have a rear license plate, nothing in the front. I understand how most of the system works. The system will sense a car that is moving through the intersection after the light has turned red. This can be with sensors in the road or sensors near the traffic light. The system will take a picture of the car that has passed through the red light. There can be be various times set up to allow a little leeway before the offender is caught.

The question I have is simple, it appears that the cameras face the oncoming cars and are angled down facing the road way. How do they get a picture of the rear of the car?

Picture a six lane divided highway with two additional lanes for left turns. The traffic lights are mounted on rigid poles with an arm that extends over most of that half of the road. The cameras and sensors are mounted on top of that arm and face down. There is no apparent camera that is capable of taking a picture of the car after it has passed through the red light .


So - How do they do it????

 

[louie]

If it's like here, my understanding is that they are only able to photograph the rear of the cars after the fact, and not show the driver, just the license plate. IOW, they are only able to work the direction of traffic where the camera sees the rear. I think it's not widely mentioned that many intersections only tag in one direction.

 

[Arm and Leg]

So, someone could just drive through and all they would get is a picture of their face and the front of their car?
Hmm, something tells me there are hidden cameras you don't see that are actually taking license shots.

 

[PhotonBoy]

I haven't read the whole thing, but you might get some info here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/red-light-camera.htm

Also, try using Google with a few search queries.

 

[sassaquin]

Los Angelos Police Dept. (lapdonline.org) has a Red Light Violation FAQ page that states that a vehicle in violation has the driver's face, license plate as well as the vehicle's front and rear video recorded by a "red light camera system".

I surprised to read that their fine for a red light violation captured by the red light camera system is $446.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

There's a different camera for the license plate. Interestingly, in some areas you can wear a gorilla mask and not pay these tickets. Arizona 2009 with similar systems.

 

[jtr1962]

The cameras you see might just be decoys. Many localities only have a small number of active cameras, but lots of decoys.

Semi off-topic but roundabouts make a lot more sense than traffic lights. They're safer as well in that they force slower speeds at intersections. It's a pity we don't use them more in this country. 75 years of studies show traffic lights are less safe than even uncontrolled intersections. Red light cameras are a bandaid to a system that is itself a bandaid.

 

[StarHalo]

Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.

And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.

 

[will]

When Florida first started to install these systems, Florida State had no 'say' with them. A ticket issued by the company that runs the system had no state remedy. Therefore, no problem with your drivers license or you license plates, which are issued by the state. The city's only remedy to collect the fine would be through small claims court.

I have read that the Florida Legislature is taking/has taken steps to make these 'real' tickets with penalties that could affect your plates or drivers license. Not sure if this has in fact become part of the law or not.

Roundabouts - my opinion - not a good idea. Most drivers do not know how to manage getting into these or getting out. And - who has the right of way? The city here has a back road with 4 roundabouts, Always interesting to see who moves first when 2 cars enter at the same time. For the most part, both drivers will stop and after a few hand signals, someone will move through the roundabout.

My question has to do the camera setup here. I do not see any camera that faces in the direction of the car after it has gone through the intersection.

 

[dano]

Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.

And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.

Not true. They send the violation notice, signed after review, via Certified Mail, the the Offender's address on file with the DMV. If it comes back as "Unclaimed" or undeliverable, then a warrant can be issued for the driver's arrest, or a traffic court trial will be held In Absentia (I.E. without the offender present).

 

[will]

This is a simple diagram of one intersection. The arrows indicate the direction of the camera, which is pointed down. The offense occurs after the car has passed under the camera.

 

[will]

Not true. They send the violation notice, signed after review, via Certified Mail, the the Offender's address on file with the DMV. If it comes back as "Unclaimed" or undeliverable, then a warrant can be issued for the driver's arrest, or a traffic court trial will be held In Absentia (I.E. without the offender present).

My understanding of all this is murky at best. Some states will enforce the ticket as stated above. Other states will not follow up on the infraction and rely on the vehicle owner just 'paying up' . Factor into all this, the camera setups are monitored by an out of state business. They get a cut of each ticket.

 

[Launch Mini]

We have them here.
The camera is located Both behing & in front of the car. The first picture shows the red light ON, and the front of the car BEHIND the stop line. The Second is with the car across the Stop Line. Time stamped and shows the rear licence plate.
Car owner gets the ticket, not the driver.


I thought I've seen images of the front of the car, but in my post below, the diagram only shows the back.

 

[will]

We have them here.
The camera is located Both behing & in front of the car. The first picture shows the red light ON, and the front of the car BEHIND the stop line. The Second is with the car across the Stop Line. Time stamped and shows the rear licence plate.
Car owner gets the ticket, not the driver.

I have seen setups with multiple cameras and I can understand how they get the infraction and the rear plate. I ride a bicycle here in Florida and I have stopped and really looked at the setup. I can not find any camera that is capable of taking the back of the car. Even looking at the back of the cameras, there are cables that would get in the way of the camera.

 

[nbp]

As an aside, roundabouts are popping up like crazy around here, and frankly, I like them. They are pretty simple to navigate, and while there can still be collisions in them, statistics show they virtually eliminate fatalities at intersections.

 

[Launch Mini]

The camera for the back of the car ( around here), is located on the same side of the road as the drivers approach to the intersection.
Not that I have received one, but my clients have included their pictures and charge as they tried to write them off for tax purpose. However, here, Fines & Penalties are NOT deductible.

 

[jtr1962]

As an aside, roundabouts are popping up like crazy around here, and frankly, I like them. They are pretty simple to navigate, and while there can still be collisions in them, statistics show they virtually eliminate fatalities at intersections.

That's the point-namely that roundabouts slow entering traffic enough by virtue of their geometry so as to make fatal collisions virtually impossible. A regular intersection with traffic lights doesn't inherently prevent high-speed collisions. In fact, the traffic light functions as a virtual "air traffic control" device for cars, enabling them to pass intersections at much higher speeds than would otherwise be safe if the traffic light weren't there. At unprotected intersections motorists typically need to slow to 20 or 25 mph just so they have time to stop if something is crossing.

 

[gadget_lover]

Three points come to mind.

First, just because you think a ticket is not valid, don't count on it. You better check with local law enforcement / judicial branch to see if you will be prosecuted. A $50 for running a red light is much less than the compounded fines for failure to appear in court and/or paying on time.

Second, I don't care for roundabouts. They are very rare in my area and people don't know how to use them. They make you slow down even when there is zero traffic to slow down for. I suspect that the same idiot who inattentively blows through a red light at 50 mph will still do the same at a roundabout.

There was a problem with tickets where the car owner protested that they were not the driver and should not be fined. The only way the driver could get the ticket cleared was to identify the real driver. This was in California. A recent change to the law now allows the owner to contest the ticket without ratting out the person behind the wheel.

Some cases have been documented where the private company which was running the red light cameras changed the timing of the lights to ensure a higher rate of violations. Our trial (one intersection) was discontinued for basically that reason.


Daniel

 

[Launch Mini]

I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners.
The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.

 

[jtr1962]

Second, I don't care for roundabouts. They are very rare in my area and people don't know how to use them. They make you slow down even when there is zero traffic to slow down for. I suspect that the same idiot who inattentively blows through a red light at 50 mph will still do the same at a roundabout.

Just a couple of points:

1) If roundabouts were more common drivers would know how to use them. Honestly though, what's so confusing about using them ( How to drive a roundabout )? Traffic entering the roundabout must yield to traffic already in it.

2) Red lights make you STOP, often for quite a while, even when there's no cross traffic. I would rather slow down at every intersection than stop at perhaps half of them. Where roundabouts are used instead of traffic lights, usually travel times are faster.

3) Anyone attempting to "run" a roundabout at 50 mph ends up hitting an immovable object, which is actually the point. I suppose we could narrow traffic lanes and install bollards separating the lanes near intersections to get a similar effect, but roundabouts are more elegant. Besides, I can't think of one good reason why intersections should be passed at more than maybe 20 or 25 mph, even if there's no traffic. You might have a person in dark clothing crossing the street at night. If you're going 50 mph, you'll never be able to stop in time.

As for red light cameras, fifteen states have already banned them, often for the reasons mentioned by Launch Mini. I suspect eventually all fifty will. That leaves us right back where we started (i.e. drivers running red lights at high speeds). Besides tweaking the yellow phase, another issue is that red light cameras decrease side impacts, but at the expense of an increase in rear-end collisions. As I said earlier, red light cameras are like putting a band-aid on a band-aid. Or perhaps more accurately like putting a band-aid on a broken bone.

More on why traffic lights have failed to increase road safety.