Red Light Traffic Cameras

[will]

The camera for the back of the car ( around here), is located on the same side of the road as the drivers approach to the intersection.
Not that I have received one, but my clients have included their pictures and charge as they tried to write them off for tax purpose. However, here, Fines & Penalties are NOT deductible.

This is the setup I have seen in NY. The setup here in Florida is different. Picture putting the camera and sensor on the traffic light arm between the center and left most traffic light that is just above image 3. Now, aim that camera down to face the oncoming traffic. It is easy to see that the camera can get the front of the vehicle, which does not have a license plate.

I have heard stories about the timing of the yellow to increase the number of red light tickets. The town, here in Florida, has those cameras on almost every light in town.

Roundabouts - Have you ever seen one that has more than 4 lanes? They are a nightmare when there is a lot of traffic. You have to cut across 2 lanes to go straight, otherwise you stay in the lane that would be for a right turn. A single, country lane is not bad.

 

[jtr1962]

This is the setup I have seen in NY. The setup here in Florida is different. Picture putting the camera and sensor on the traffic light arm between the center and left most traffic light that is just above image 3. Now, aim that camera down to face the oncoming traffic. It is easy to see that the camera can get the front of the vehicle, which does not have a license plate.

Here's my theory on this. I suspect they're going to have more red light camera locations than active cameras (similar to what NYC is doing actually). The forward facing camera (if it is a camera) will probably be active all the time, but of course won't be able to take valid pictures. In fact, it may not take pictures at all, but may just flash to make motorists think they were caught. Because most of the hardware is already there, it will be relatively easy to mount a rear-facing camera behind the forward-facing camera on a temporary basis. This won't be readily visible to oncoming traffic, and thus there will be no way to tell whether or not this location has an active red light camera. The forward facing "camera" would serve as a deterrent even without the rear facing camera, similar to the way active security cameras are often supplemented by dummy cameras. This allows you to multiply the number of intersections where motorists think they're being watched while using a much smaller number of cameras. Maybe the legislature said you can only have, say, 100 cameras in Florida. They didn't say you couldn't equip as many intersections as you want for red light cameras, and then rotate the camera locations. In NYC some percentage of the cameras aren't active, but the intersections with red light cameras still look like they are. As a result, I notice motorists are more careful about running these particular lights.

 

[Pellidon]

The red light cameras legal status varies from state to state. Last I heard, here in Indiana, they are not valid because one can not confront the accuser in court. So we don't use them for ticketing (unless that has changed). They are set up in some areas for monitoring traffic and safety in high crime intersections. Some states stopped using them when they found out the intersections that had them had more rear enders from people stopping too quickly to avoid them. Some municipalities also signed bad contracts with third parties to manage them, and keep all the money. Plus some of those cities also have to pay out of pocket for their use. Not the win-win they thought they would be.

My GPS has some traffic camera locations and warns me when I approach. Quite sensible in speed camera zones but many people don't know or care that they are present. I have seen many people go 10-20 MPH over the limit to pass someone just to slow down to exit the highway or slow down by 20+ MPH for no apparent reason and almost get rear ended.

I have also seen up to five cars run a red light at an intersection before the cross traffic starts moving. Something needs to be done. I guess having an officer stop them and administer forty minutes with a taser is just too time consuming.

 

[will]

One set up in NY has a few cameras and stobe lights to take the pictures. They had it set up at an intersection that had a left turn arrow for those making a left turn. Most traffic lights sequence the full green light immediately after the green left arrow goes off, no delay. They set this one up with a 2 second delay between the green arrow going off and the full green coming on. What happens ? cars get into the intersection with the green left turn arrow, that goes off when they are still in the middle ( now there is a red light for 2 seconds ) . The cameras go off, the stobes flash, and the car will get a ticket in the mail. I sat at this light for 10 minutes while I was on a bike ride, sure enough, cars were getting caught in the middle.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Is that better or worse than here? Every once in a while, from 5-6pm weekdays, a police officer parks near the intersection. Usually, the light goes from green+right arrow green, to red+Right arrow green. While he is there, the right turn arrow turns red, then green.

 

[SemiMan]

When Florida first started to install these systems, Florida State had no 'say' with them. A ticket issued by the company that runs the system had no state remedy. Therefore, no problem with your drivers license or you license plates, which are issued by the state. The city's only remedy to collect the fine would be through small claims court.

I have read that the Florida Legislature is taking/has taken steps to make these 'real' tickets with penalties that could affect your plates or drivers license. Not sure if this has in fact become part of the law or not.

Roundabouts - my opinion - not a good idea. Most drivers do not know how to manage getting into these or getting out. And - who has the right of way? The city here has a back road with 4 roundabouts, Always interesting to see who moves first when 2 cars enter at the same time. For the most part, both drivers will stop and after a few hand signals, someone will move through the roundabout.

My question has to do the camera setup here. I do not see any camera that faces in the direction of the car after it has gone through the intersection.

I will take roundabouts any day. You are correct that when there are only a few of them that people do not know what to do ... deer in the headlights. However, once people get used to them, then they work out really well. Moving towards more of them .... critical mass, is a good idea. The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.

 

[SemiMan]

I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners.
The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.

There have been a few news stories like this not to mention it has been shown where red light cameras have been installed, the incidence of rear-end collisions goes up. I have purposely "ran" a red light ... yellow turning red, because I had another vehicle right on my bumper and while I may have been able to stop, I did not expect they would have. There are idiots that will sit right on your tail approaching an intersection so that they can "get through".

Semiman

 

[orbital]

I will take roundabouts any day. You are correct that when there are only a few of them that people do not know what to do ... deer in the headlights. However, once people get used to them, then they work out really well. Moving towards more of them .... critical mass, is a good idea. The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.

+

Roundabouts save both time and energy,

Your not sitting there wasting gas, then having to re-accelerate out from a complete stop, which uses even more gas!
The added strain on transmissions starting from a complete stop, especially if towing.
Added wear on brakes
Wasted time
ect..
ect..

There really isn't anything tricky about Roundabouts,, you Yield entering it :thumbsup:


>> I'd love to see a study on the amount of gas wasted at unnecessary Stop signs

 

[will]

Is that better or worse than here? Every once in a while, from 5-6pm weekdays, a police officer parks near the intersection. Usually, the light goes from green+right arrow green, to red+Right arrow green. While he is there, the right turn arrow turns red, then green.

I am familiar with NY and Florida, both have 'right on red, after stop' there are exceptions, like NYC. I have not seen a 'green right arrow' for quite some time in a regular intersection.

The back street here that has the roundabouts also has LOTS and LOTS of tire marks on the curbs around them.

 

[Norman]

I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners.
The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.

Yes, not only should the yellow timing be increased, but a study indicated that increasing the timing for red in all directions will also reduce the chance of a collision. It all depends on whether you're trying to increase revenues or decrease collisions.

Here's a website that I found a few years ago. It not only has automotive-related news (less cars, more red light cams, enforcement, etc), but also includes links to studies.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/

 

[Monocrom]

Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.

And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.

A more serious issue . . . Idiot drivers having no clue how a roundabout works, and going in the wrong direction. (Probably while texting.)

Not to mention the prohibitive cost of replacing even a fraction of intersections with roundabouts.

 

[Ny0ng1]

Just to provide a different perspective. Here in Jakarta, Indonesia, where the traffic condition is waay above the road capacity, a roundabout without a traffic light would be a deadlock.
There would be vehicles criss crossing each other's path.

Here is a pic of a big roundabout (with traffic light) at central Jakarta

Here are the pic of the same roundabout at normal traffic condition with traffic lights. At peak hour, policemen would be required to ensure all motorist are adhering to traffic rules.

 

[will]

Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens?

I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..

 

[louie]

Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens?

I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..

Are you sure these arm cameras are for red light violations? Around here, the red light cameras are on sidewalk poles, in large housings, with large strobes, and by law the intersection must have signage saying red light cams are in use in this intersection. They do not have to state which direction they can detect, however, that info is available on the city website.

We also have many small cameras on traffic signal arms which appear to be solely for city traffic monitoring.

 

[idleprocess]

In Texas, almost all of the red light cameras were the worst possible examples of public-private "partnerships" where the cameras were owned, operated, and maintained privately with the hosting municipality leasing them, giving them some vague force in law, and capturing a fraction of the ticket revenue. Needless to say, with the rent-seeking problem so badly amplified, they were routinely adjusted to maximize revenue with no regard for the letter nor the spirit of the law they were ostensibly enforcing. At some locations, it reached the point where simply being in the intersection when the light turned yellow would result in a citation.

Thankfully, the Texas legislature has suspended the installation of new red light cameras and last session had a bill prohibiting the renewal of existing leases (which may or may not have passed).

The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.

This alone will prevent them from being implemented in most existing locations - too expensive to buy up the land for that kind of re-engineering. What's funny is that the few places I see them around the Dallas area, they're in exceptionally low-traffic areas ... better than a stop sign and the operating expense of a signal, I suppose.

Why traffic lights can't be better synchronized is beyond me. Everywhere I go in the US an intersection has a controller the size of a commercial refrigerator, yet they seem to be optimized by the local brake shop association. Is the profession of traffic engineering the dismal failure it seems to be? Is it some limitation on sensors and the ability to detect traffic / for light controllers to communicate? Is there political interference from the influential who demand the ability to turn left out of their gated communities without waiting / folks who prefer slow traffic to "undesirables" travelling through their town?

The latter point seems to be exceptionally pronounced. I see stoplights along major roads turning red constantly - interrupting arterial flow - so that a car or three can turn left from a feeder street that often as not connects to no other major roads. I see left turn signal logic that seems to be 180 degrees out of phase with how it intuitively should work. The whole point of traffic lights and the "limited branch hierarchy" scheme that funnels traffic to major arteries seems to be to keep traffic moving on the arteries, with the implicit understanding that feeder streets will be de-prioritized upon entry to the arteries.

 

[will]

Are you sure these arm cameras are for red light violations? Around here, the red light cameras are on sidewalk poles, in large housings, with large strobes, and by law the intersection must have signage saying red light cams are in use in this intersection. They do not have to state which direction they can detect, however, that info is available on the city website.

We also have many small cameras on traffic signal arms which appear to be solely for city traffic monitoring.

The setup you describe is the same as the ones in NY that I have seen. Here in Florida, there are no signs indicating cameras in use, no strobe lights, and no cameras on poles. I did a quick search and the only reference I could find was for red light cameras. Florida did pass a law making violations a state offense. Next stop will be to ask one of the deputies how they work.

 

[orbital]

+

will, they'll have the necessary photos for the ticket.

The much bigger issue is we are at the tip of the iceberg regarding robo-ticketing, the $ potential is huge and it will be easily lobbied.
.... most concerning to me is the little block box in every new car that can phone home on everything you do.

What do you think Snapshot is on some insurance,
it's a way for them to prove you did something wrong (or outside laws in any way) & you will be found liable in incidents.

Hell, the little red light cam is nothing compared to what will likely come..

 

[alpg88]

i recieved few red light camera tickest in nyc.
it just shows the rear of the car, before, and at intersection, and shows license plate close up as well. no foto of the driver.
even if you don't pay, no one is issued warrant for arrest, it works the same way parking tickest work. have enough fines on lisence plate, the car gets towed, the more time you don't pay, the more fines-late charges you accamulate. in nyc few year back it was $230 you had to have owed on your plate to have your car towed.
and if the owner has 2 or more cars, they may tow any of them, doesn't have to be the one that ran a light, or collected bunch of parking tickets.

 

[jtr1962]

The much bigger issue is we are at the tip of the iceberg regarding robo-ticketing, the $ potential is huge and it will be easily lobbied.
.... most concerning to me is the little block box in every new car that can phone home on everything you do.

I'm dubious if cars will ever contact the authorities on their own. What is coming though will be routine use of black box data to investigate crashes. And in my book it couldn't come soon enough. NYC has had an epidemic of stupid crashes where the driver claims to have had a seizure, mixed up the gas and brake pedals, or just "lost control". It boggles the mind how a car driven at the legal speed limit of 30 mph or less can end up going on a sidewalk with enough force to mow down a bunch of pedestrians. In any case, if we pulled the black box data, we might well find the driver was speeding to make a light, and/or otherwise engaged in reckless behavior. Perhaps in time the black boxes will be supplemented by cameras. Those who drive responsibly aren't going to have any worries from all this new technology. The ones who do object are the ones who routinely drive recklessly, and get away with it.

 

[jtr1962]

Why traffic lights can't be better synchronized is beyond me. Everywhere I go in the US an intersection has a controller the size of a commercial refrigerator, yet they seem to be optimized by the local brake shop association. Is the profession of traffic engineering the dismal failure it seems to be? Is it some limitation on sensors and the ability to detect traffic / for light controllers to communicate? Is there political interference from the influential who demand the ability to turn left out of their gated communities without waiting / folks who prefer slow traffic to "undesirables" travelling through their town?

The latter point seems to be exceptionally pronounced. I see stoplights along major roads turning red constantly - interrupting arterial flow - so that a car or three can turn left from a feeder street that often as not connects to no other major roads. I see left turn signal logic that seems to be 180 degrees out of phase with how it intuitively should work. The whole point of traffic lights and the "limited branch hierarchy" scheme that funnels traffic to major arteries seems to be to keep traffic moving on the arteries, with the implicit understanding that feeder streets will be de-prioritized upon entry to the arteries.

There's only so much you can do as far as synchronizing traffic lights. Lights on 2-way streets can only be synced for certain speeds, depending upon the signal spacing/duration. The larger problem is arterials intersect other arterials eventually. Often there really isn't a way to neatly synchronize an entire grid. Adding to the problem is what speed do you synchronize at, assuming you have a choice? On streets with mixed traffic, synchronizing for car speeds often means bicycles get stuck at nearly every light (and predictably end up ignoring red lights). And then when any traffic control is overused, it becomes less effective. Community boards often clamor for traffic lights even when evidence suggests they make things less safe.

The fact is traffic engineering ends up being a dismal failure the more you take the driver's judgement out of the equation. Traffic lights do exactly that. To add to the insanity of the situation, traffic lights which let cars speed along at 30 or 40 mph (at least when they're green) don't even reduce traffic times. In most cities if you're lucky you'll average 15 to 20 mph overall on local streets. That being the case, it makes more sense to just have a 20 mph speed limit. At that speed you don't need any traffic controls at intersections. Everyone watches out for everyone else. The driver is back in the equation. Because you'll rarely need to completely stop, you might get there as fast or faster than you do now. Years ago we thought we could control traffic flow as easily as valves control water by using traffic lights. We're now realizing the huge inefficiency introduced by traffic signals more than negates any increase in cruising speeds they allow. Without traffic lights, cars in cities wouldn't go more than about 20 mph. You would have far fewer pedestrian fatalities as a result.