RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
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Remove the muffler from your Prius...
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TONY M
Flashlight Enthusiast
My car is basic, runs on gas (petrol) and yet still outperforms the Hybrid in the gas mileage department...
BTW. In the UK diesel is usually seen as being more "green" than gasoline as the fuel efficiency of diesels tend to be better than gas engines. Small diesels of less than 2 litres in capacity are very common. I still think that diesel is the fuel of the Devil.
Some people over hear convert their diesels to run off cooking oil which has much more pleasant fumes to inhale. :twothumbs Mmmm anyone for fries?
jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
My buddy is doing that to his diesel golf. I'd love to have a diesel in my jeep but they don't offer one. They do in europe but not in north america. :duh2:
LEDninja
Flashlight Enthusiast
Just heard on the news an engineer came out with a solution:
He is going to install speakers in the wheel wells that broadcast a mixture of engine and Jetsons sounds.
Don't know why the local station carried this bit of news (from ABC). Ontario does not allow electric cars.
He is going to install speakers in the wheel wells that broadcast a mixture of engine and Jetsons sounds.
Don't know why the local station carried this bit of news (from ABC). Ontario does not allow electric cars.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Monocrom basically got it all wrong. I've been watching the hybrids since they were first announced, and have heard every falsehood that you can imagine. Some are really amusing, others are just hateful.
Look around, and you will find that Toyota finished recouping all R&D as well as tooling costs in the 2002 time frame. It was in the public corporate records. That means that the car has been making a profit since before then. That means the dumping charge is wishful thinking, perhaps a way to justify the lack of foresight by the big 3 auto makers in the US.
Daniel
Look around, and you will find that Toyota finished recouping all R&D as well as tooling costs in the 2002 time frame. It was in the public corporate records. That means that the car has been making a profit since before then. That means the dumping charge is wishful thinking, perhaps a way to justify the lack of foresight by the big 3 auto makers in the US.
Daniel
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
You really should compare cars that are equal in all ways.
The Volkswagon TDIs that I have followed recently still had that distinctive aroma of a diesel.
The Diesel will still use a cup or so of fuel every 5 minutes while sitting in stopped traffic. A hybrid will not. A diesel will still be converting that cup to soot and other combustion by-products. A hybrid does not.
If a Prius were redesigned to be as polluting as a diesel, it would get even better mileage than it does now.
Mine has 77777 miles on it this week . I've averaged 50.7 MPG this tank, and that is NOT on flat land.
But back on topic. I do tend to get off topic where hybrids are concerned.
The noise of any luxury sedan is low enough to be masked by ambient noise levels. A Jag, Lexus or Mercedes is likely to be to quiet to hear anywhere near moving traffic. I've even "snuck up" behind folks in a Ford V8 pickup truck. People just don't always pay attention to their surroundings.
The whole thing is a red herring.
Daniel
RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
Unfortunately diesels still suffer from poor image here in the US. I cannot speak for Canada though. Hopefully this will help
http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2/experience/motorsport/r10.html
One of the most badarse diesels on the planet. The engineering that went into that thing is insane.
I think they're getting some competition from Renault? now. I haven't kept up on this.
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RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
You really should compare cars that are equal in all ways.
The Volkswagon TDIs that I have followed recently still had that distinctive aroma of a diesel.
The Diesel will still use a cup or so of fuel every 5 minutes while sitting in stopped traffic. A hybrid will not. A diesel will still be converting that cup to soot and other combustion by-products. A hybrid does not.
If a Prius were redesigned to be as polluting as a diesel, it would get even better mileage than it does now.
Mine has 77777 miles on it this week . I've averaged 50.7 MPG this tank, and that is NOT on flat land.
But back on topic. I do tend to get off topic where hybrids are concerned.
The noise of any luxury sedan is low enough to be masked by ambient noise levels. A Jag, Lexus or Mercedes is likely to be to quiet to hear anywhere near moving traffic. I've even "snuck up" behind folks in a Ford V8 pickup truck. People just don't always pay attention to their surroundings.
The whole thing is a red herring.
Daniel
However a small diesel is considerably less complex. And can take advantage of biodiesel. Probably a bit more accessible for many people. It's unfortunate that US manufacturers don't produce anything like they have in Europe. An Aveo or similar car with a small displacement diesel would be an attractive and cheap option if provided with the right marketing.
I agree about the awareness thing though.:thumbsup:
jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
You are putting hybrid against diesel where hybrid will excel, try long distance highway and see diesel shine.
Besides, diesel technology in north america sucks compare to rest of the world. None of the major manufacturers is willing to bring their newest technology here because it's not widely accepted, and our diesel fuel is dirty and will clog up the engine. Look at the diesel cars in europe, they burn cleaner than gas counterpart.
Hmmm..... So Toyota basically says they recouped their investment, and that's it? Public Corporate records..... Okay, I'll incorporate and write down that I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn; real cheap!
I guess that too will automatically make it true.
As far as foresight by the Big 3, G.M. did produce a somewhat popular all EV model a few years back. You could only lease them. Makes sense since EVs tend to become horribly unreliable if kept for more than a couple of years. (Speaking from experience with several EVs I've used on the job).
jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
If I recall those models are actually pretty good. People loved them so much they want to buy them after lease period but GM said no. The whole thing lead to the theory the whole electrical car thing by GM was engineered to fail from day one.
RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'm guessing it has more to do complexity, cost and profit. Around here we have problems with one cell among a dozen getting too much or too little charge in a hotwire pack. Consider that the tesla roadster uses over 6000 18650 cells. It's hard not to design something that provides an appropriate range without becoming a giant bomb/battery acid vat.
RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
Do you remember "The Red Green Show". What was it he used to say? "If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." I'd love to see his take on the electric car.edit: found it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kicPPCN2ErQ&feature=related
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Yup. Many folks who leased the G.M. EV model wanted to buy them.
But the theory isn't a good one. Two things.... Why go to the trouble to make an EV model in the first place, if you want the project to result in failure? Makes no sense. Imagine the money being.... intentionally wasted?? And if it was, then what would be gained by doing so?
More likely, G.M. figured out what I learned at my job site. EV models become horribly unreliable the older they get. Can't tell you the reason behind it, but I've experienced it. Sort of like a non-flashaholic pushing down on the side-switch of a Maglite. They can't tell you why the light comes on, they just know it does; every time they press the switch. Some of the EV models at work would be charged overnight, would show a full charge; and then would suddenly shut off for no apparent reason at all. Gauge was showing a full charge nearly a minute ago. Now the battery is drained, and the car has shut itself off.
Now imagine driving on an expressway to get to work. You're doing about 60mph., and your EV shuts off.... If you were G.M., would you want to deal with the lawsuits? Far cheaper to just take back all of the leased EVs, and refuse to sell them to the former owners.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Since this thread has devolved into a hybrid / electric car bashing thread, I highly commend the CPF threads on "EV and Alternative Fuel vehicles" . Those threads are filled with real facts posted by people who DO understand why your lead acid powered fork lifts (or dollies or lifts or whatever) are not standing up well.
If, as I suggested, one actually looks at the record instead of making unfounded guesses, they would see that the Toyota books and corporate reports are scrutinized and verified by auditors. Only the very foolish would try to lie about such a thing in open records.
And someone asked why GM would even build an EV? SImple. The state of California required all the car makers to produce a zero polution car if they wanted to sell any cars in California. No Zero emissions car = no sales in 1/10 of the US. So they all developed something, and they all worked. And as soon as California relaxed the rules they all (except Honda and Toyota) got rid of the evidence that it does work and is not prohibitively expensive.
Remember, A car company pays billions for the single purpose tools that make their cars. It costs a fortune to throw away those tools simply because you want to use a different power plant. And that's why they keep claiming that they can't do better; they want to use up their investment.
Daniel
If, as I suggested, one actually looks at the record instead of making unfounded guesses, they would see that the Toyota books and corporate reports are scrutinized and verified by auditors. Only the very foolish would try to lie about such a thing in open records.
And someone asked why GM would even build an EV? SImple. The state of California required all the car makers to produce a zero polution car if they wanted to sell any cars in California. No Zero emissions car = no sales in 1/10 of the US. So they all developed something, and they all worked. And as soon as California relaxed the rules they all (except Honda and Toyota) got rid of the evidence that it does work and is not prohibitively expensive.
Remember, A car company pays billions for the single purpose tools that make their cars. It costs a fortune to throw away those tools simply because you want to use a different power plant. And that's why they keep claiming that they can't do better; they want to use up their investment.
Daniel
jzmtl
Flashlight Enthusiast
We are not bashing, we are saying it's not the best out here as it is made out to be and there are more realistic/economic options.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
When one says "we are saying it's not the best out here as it is made out to be" one is lumping a dozen different technolgies together.
In my opinion, the parallel hybrid with CVT (continuously variable transmission) allows for a vehicle that can be driven exactly like any other while doing less damage to the ecology. It does not have to be cramped, nor slow, nor hard to start nor does it require special maintenance.
It's a remarkable thing that there are hybrids that are super clean (the Prius and Insight) as well as some that are super quick (the Lexus Gs 450H) and everything in between. If one were design with ONLY fuel economy in mind it would blow your mind.
The economics of a hybrid or EV are unique to each model. The Tesla is going for a rare market where a transmission or engine rebuild every few years is normal. In that arena, the batteries are a non issue.
The economic advantage of being able to continue driving even during an oil shortage is hard to understand unless you have live through one. I experienced the rationing of the early 1970s, and am quite happy that I will be able to continue driving normally long after most SUVS and minivans have been parked.
As for realistic..... Electricity is one of the better ways to store and transport energy no matter what it's source. I am willing to bet that most of CPF does not typically drive more than 20 miles a day. At that level, just about any electric design will work.
Making up falsehoods about EVS and hybrids does no one any good except the employees of GM and.....
Never mind.
Daniel
In my opinion, the parallel hybrid with CVT (continuously variable transmission) allows for a vehicle that can be driven exactly like any other while doing less damage to the ecology. It does not have to be cramped, nor slow, nor hard to start nor does it require special maintenance.
It's a remarkable thing that there are hybrids that are super clean (the Prius and Insight) as well as some that are super quick (the Lexus Gs 450H) and everything in between. If one were design with ONLY fuel economy in mind it would blow your mind.
The economics of a hybrid or EV are unique to each model. The Tesla is going for a rare market where a transmission or engine rebuild every few years is normal. In that arena, the batteries are a non issue.
The economic advantage of being able to continue driving even during an oil shortage is hard to understand unless you have live through one. I experienced the rationing of the early 1970s, and am quite happy that I will be able to continue driving normally long after most SUVS and minivans have been parked.
As for realistic..... Electricity is one of the better ways to store and transport energy no matter what it's source. I am willing to bet that most of CPF does not typically drive more than 20 miles a day. At that level, just about any electric design will work.
Making up falsehoods about EVS and hybrids does no one any good except the employees of GM and.....
Never mind.
Daniel
RyanA
Flashlight Enthusiast
I agree. In my opinion electric cars coupled with nuclear power would provide an escape from oil dependency. But at the moment small diesels would be cheaper to produce. I know that the guys at tesla say the battery setup is safe, being controlled by microprocessors and all. But I can't help thinking the lotus elise is a fairly new car to the US. I wonder how long the development span has been.
jtr1962
Flashaholic
I'll second that, and I also think we should add electric high-speed trains to the mix. Those use roughly the same energy per passenger-mile as an EV, but travel at 3 times the speed. Long distance high-speed rail fed by electric cars/buses/subways would be the real answer to our oil dependency/transportation problems. Funny how this thread went off on this tangent. :thinking:
