Science close to stopping the aging process

[LowBat]

What does this do to the (already broken) social security system?

Are we all going to continue working until????

If people don't die and new ones continue to come into the planet, what does that do to our limited resources?

Here's a thought; don't reproduce and you can live as long as you like, or can afford too.

 

[CM]

Here's a thought; don't reproduce and you can live as long as you like, or can afford too.

Yeah, but I like reproducing :devil:

 

[phenwick]

I was thinking for the people sentenced to "Life in prision" they will really be screwed.

LOL!
AlexGT

And you can kiss goodbye "lifetime warranties" on future products.

 

[SheDevil]

Yeah, but I like reproducing :devil:

No Darlin you like the "act" of trying to reproduce.

 

[NA8]

So... like... topless dancers would never grow old ?

:devil:

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Sign me up! I want to see what the future will be like, have time to learn all the things I want to learn and see all the things I want to see. Sure it'd be fraught with problems, but I'd welcome the challenge. I can always commit suicide should I change my mind.

My family is generally long lived. I have no relatives that have died naturally at less than 95 years old, and many that have made it past 100. Most had cancer of some sort; I've been told independently by several of their doctors that everyone would die of cancer if something else didn't get us first. Seemingly living much longer would require a cure for cancer.

I would think that should everyone be endowed with the ambition to better their position in life and the foresight necessary to plan farther ahead than the next paycheck, they could eventually retire with no drain on our current social security system.

Interesting discussion. :buddies:

 

[Empath]

While rejoicing over your expected immortality, don't forget that degenerative diseases of old age only play a small role in the common causes of death. The problems involved with aging should be researched as surely as other health problems, but attributing a much longer life span to such a single thing isn't realistic.

We're all subject to the wear to our bodies caused cumulative by our lifetime of wounds, environmental exposures, accidents, habits, mistakes by health professionals, diseases and such. As long as there are probabilities that can be attributed to different accidents, contacting diseases, violent acts and other things that can bring our lives to an end, then we can count the end as an absolute approaching event.

 

[LowBat]

So if the body wears out, what about transferring consciousness? I understand little about what makes us self aware.

 

[Nitro]

So if the body wears out, what about transferring consciousness? I understand little about what makes us self aware.

Sure, just don't forget to do backups.

 

[jtr1962]

While rejoicing over your expected immortality, don't forget that degenerative diseases of old age only play a small role in the common causes of death. The problems involved with aging should be researched as surely as other health problems, but attributing a much longer life span to such a single thing isn't realistic.

The way I understand it, the reason things such as cancer or other diseases eventually win out is due to the body's decreased ability to fight them as degeneration from age weakens us. This is why cancer rates increase with age, for example. The body's ability to fight and/or flush out toxins decreases as we age, the toxins accumulate, eventually the toxins win. Sure, we have a long way to go before we can even contemplate stopping aging. However, if by degrees we can slow aging, then many of those around today might still be alive even if it takes another 100 years to find a "cure".

As long as there are probabilities that can be attributed to different accidents, contacting diseases, violent acts and other things that can bring our lives to an end, then we can count the end as an absolute approaching event.

Absolutely there will be an end, probably via external factors (accident, natural disaster, violent act) even if our bodies never aged or contracted disease. That being said, I can imagine us taking much greater measures to prevent these things in a world without aging. We certainly wouldn't tolerate 50,000 annual deaths in the US from motor vehicle accidents, for example. The economic cost of an accidental death rises manyfold if the deceased loses 1000 productive years instead of 30.

 

[monkeyboy]

Worst case scenario:

After 100 years, you'd have no teeth left. you would have the muscles of a 20 year old but your joints would have worn out from the extra stress and you would be suffering from chronic arthritis. After 150 years you'd probably be unable to move without high doses of morphine. This would turn you into a permanent heroin addict which would lead to mental illness and you'd spend the rest of eternity in a mental asylum in a state of extreme pain sipping porridge through a straw.

Best case scenario:

You have worked in the same company for 200 years and have been promoted to the highest position possible with some ludicrously high salary. You retire and the government are forced to pay you $1M a year pension till the end of time. After 1000 years, thanks to compound interest, you now own most of the world's money. You could have a new hot 18 year old girl friend every year which wouldn't be weird because you have the body of a 21 year old. After a while, you'd get bored of being master-of-the-universe and kill yourself.

 

[js]

jtr,

I've been giving this some more thought, and I appreciate your views on this subject. More below . . .

First, however, I honestly don't think that this scenario is "science fiction" in the sense that it could never happen. I find the idea of space travel to other planets to be a lot more improbable than the idea of stopping or even reversing the aging process.

The thing is that the body, who you are, is a lot more like a whirlpool in a flowing stream than a pond. Water goes in, water goes out; it doesn't just sit there. The matter, the water, isn't important as such: it comes and goes--it's the pattern of the water that persists. The human body is the same way. Matter comes in, matter goes out, and yet the form remains. To the extent that the body's vitality and processes are high and functioning well, the form not only remains, but is remade--healed--in the case of injury or disease.

The idea of living for 500 years really isn't all that crazy, in my considered opinion.

The very point here is that if science can unlock the secrets of aging and cellular degenerative/regenerative processes, then your vitality and health could be enhanced to the point where you wouldn't even need to watch your diet or stop smoking or stop drinking coffee. When I was young and active, I could eat anything I wanted, drink alcohol, stay up late, and not sustain any significant ill consequences. This is because I was vital and healthy.

Health is NOT the absense of disease, but rather a strong constitution and powerful vitality. The people who watch their diets to the point of obsession and exercise compulsively and sleep 8 hours a day--these people may be healthy. OR it may be that their health is actually so far below average that unless they live "cleanly" they won't feel healthy.

I myself would welcome longer life spans for human individuals, and I do not agree that it would necessarily mean a shorter lifespan for the human race. On the contrary. I agree with jtr. I think it would make people start thinking long-term, start them developing a wider vision.

And after thinking about it some more, I am not at all worried that we would lack for wisdom-granting experiences or vehicles. It is true that there is a tendency to stagnation, but it is also true that there is a divine discontent and a tendency to change just for the sake of change. I mean, isn't that parly what a middle-age crisis is? Of course, it is also partly a feeling that ones youth is waning and one better get some more fun in before it's too late, which is the exact opposite of what we're talking about here.

Anyway, "death" in the sense of transformation would still be alive and well. Plenty of good stuff around like humiliating yourself in public, making bad decisions, having a bad break up with your boyfriend or girlfriend (or husband or wife), and so on. Even if you never got sick and never felt ill, there would still be plenty of death around.

I believe that the human capacity for expansion and self-improvement is practically unlimited. I think I could easily find enough stuff to fill a dozen life-times. I would risk the possibility of decades of depression and enui for a lifespan of a half a dozen centuries or more.

As for society, obviously, procreation patterns would have to change! But, I mean, really, they already have done so, and are continuing to do so. And are doing so in accord with the longer life spans.

Anyway, interesting discussion!

 

[Nitro]

JS, I have a question for you.

If our average lifespan would all of sudden double (say 150 yrs old) tomorrow, what do you think the population of the earth would be in 1, 5 and 10 years? Then, compare that population growth with the current.

 

[Badbeams3]

For now, depending on ones age...just slowing ageing would be a win. If you could live another 20 years...then perhaps by then living another 30 might be possible...then 50...then 100...and so on. And this I think possible.

It would be the greatest thing that ever happened to man...and deep down the desire of everyone...in general. Billionares would trade all thier wealth for a shot at eternal life. Eternal meaning a long long time. All things come to an end. Even if man could live forever...things would happen at some point...a meteor for example.

Life as we know it would change in a big way...life would have much more value to a person...to ones self...and to others. Folks would think twice about doing bad things to others...death wouldn`t be there to remove the traces of there past deeds.

As a world we would grow far wiser...wisdom for most comes with age.

As children...we all had the experiance of realizing our parents would die at some point...a horrible realization...and that we too would pass at some far away point. Folks marry...knowing one will leave the other behind in old age. We are raised from early on to accept and deal with these horrible realites.

Religions abound... many built largely on living a good life on account of death...and what happens after death. Helps many cope with the thought of death...something nice afterwards.

But we could learn early on that death is not so near at hand...perhaps never. That life eternal is a reason for liveing a good life...perhaps it is gods will that man rises to the level of greater wisdom through long life (for those who believe in god). To a point of being near gods (sort of/maybe).

Some desires might be slowed...the desire to gather wealth quickly...a race for toys/money fast ("your life amounts to a blink of an eye compared to the universe...better get moving "...might not matter so much...plenty of time for things...might want to spend more time loving your wife...self...and others. You don`t feel in a hurry to experince all of life while your young...relax, take it easy, plenty of time to do things...if you want to.

Work for a year...or two...take a year vacation...if you want...you`ll never have to retire...work forever...and vacation a lot...no hurry...no hurry at all.

You`ll feel fine...now at 200...and just as fine at 500:twothumbs

 

[js]

JS, I have a question for you.

If our average lifespan would all of sudden double (say 150 yrs old) tomorrow, what do you think the population of the earth would be in 1, 5 and 10 years? Then, compare that population growth with the current.

Well, if the average lifespan were suddenly doubled, --as in a miracle stoppage or even cure or reversal for age and disease and infirmity--, then the population growth rate would increase by the death rate proportionally adjusted to include only those deaths due to aging and disease. This would increase the population accordingly over 1, 5 and 10 years. (Do you want numbers, or only the concept?)

However, it is unlikely that the increase of lifespans would be sudden. More likely it would be progressive, on the whole. Also, even if it were sudden, the "cure" would probably not be available to all.

However all that may be, there is no question that over population is now a problem, and would be even more of a problem in the hypothetical situation envisioned here.

But does this mean we should not advance medicine? Does this mean (for example) that we should let starving, sick, and destitute people just die off to keep the global population in check? Should we "cull out" the infirm at birth, aborting them, to improve the health of the species as a whole?

Nay, even more, should we start sterilizing those with undesireable traits? Or preventing them from reproducing by other means? Should we stop vaccinating so as to weed out those with weak immune systems?

Should we, like the NAZI's and early fans of Darwin, start practicing "eugenics"?

And if not, how is prolonging the average life span any different than any other advance of scientific medicine and social health practices?

It's the modern world, baby. Either you accept it, or to be consistent, you really have to take on a Christian Science sort of no modern medicine position, to one degree or another.

Or don't you think so?

 

[Badbeams3]

jtr,


Anyway, "death" in the sense of transformation would still be alive and well. Plenty of good stuff around like humiliating yourself in public, making bad decisions, having a bad break up with your boyfriend or girlfriend (or husband or wife), and so on. Even if you never got sick and never felt ill, there would still be plenty of death around.

I believe that the human capacity for expansion and self-improvement is practically unlimited. I think I could easily find enough stuff to fill a dozen life-times. I would risk the possibility of decades of depression and enui for a lifespan of a half a dozen centuries or more.

As for society, obviously, procreation patterns would have to change! But, I mean, really, they already have done so, and are continuing to do so. And are doing so in accord with the longer life spans.

Anyway, interesting discussion!

Thought I would comment on your extremley good post...with reguards to depression. I too see this as a very big problem...hopefully the drugs/things that would allow long life would be kind to memory...allow one to forget...or diminish bad memories. Or some other drug to help people forget.

It would be important to live life in a way that did not build to many really bad memories to begin with. One would have to want to keep living...not prefer death to escape bad memories. We all do or have done things that we are ashamed of. As we grow older/wiser we become even more ashamed of our past behaviors. But we have the excuse of being young and foolish...and we can forgive ourselves. Place those memories in a mostly closed room in our minds.

As we grow older it becomes harder to to forgive ourselves...we should have known better...no longer can simply say we were young. Hopefully wisdom keeps these to a minimium.

Other types of depression might cause problems too. The loss of a parent, wife or child. Might be much more severe in a world were people live forever.

I can see problems with these things if one could live forever...some might choose to stop living. Perhaps at some point...every one might decide they simply don`t want to go on...to much bad in there...and nothing to look forward to. Bordom...even if I spelled it right...could be a big problem...might wait all year for that spaceship to land on Jupiter...so you can slip on those 3d glasses and go roving around...might be the only thing of interest in one life...probaby pretty disapointing too.

Perhaps our brains would be one organ that should not be improved upon...not to much anyway :thinking:

Edit: odd thought People at say...500 would likely have been married many times. When your girl tells you your "special"...you know she`s told another 27 husbands the same thing at one time or another. And meant it. Hmm...maybe it doesn`t matter. She`s wiser now:thinking: Or would you want a 200 year old chick. Prefer to take a chance on a young thing. They both look 35 years old...and hot!:naughty:

 

[js]

BadBeams3,

Good post! Indeed. About the memory thing and forgetting, it makes me think of Nietzche, who maintains that FORGETTING is an active power of the mind and spirit, something necessary and essential to a vital life. It isn't just the failure of remembering, but an intentional house-cleaning, if you will.

And I think there's something to that, to say the least. Also, his whole "The Use and Disadvantage of History for life" essay in Untimely Meditations is rather a pro pos here, I think. In simple outline, he finds it strange that "culture" has come to mean "museum culture": being educated--cultured--came to mean (in his day at least) being really knowledgeable about Greek culture and Roman culture and Shakespeare and Newton and so on and on. This intense self-consciousness he contrasts with the Greek culture itself--the true Greek culture before Socrates and Eurypides ruined it! LOL!

Anyway, I digress. A lot.

My point is that I have come to believe that there is a great deal of wisdom in folly, to put it paradoxically. I feel that if you are unable to forgive yourself, forget, forgive, and move on, you are probably lacking in wisdom! Wisdom is knowing that you are only human, nothing special, not infallible. And if you know that, really know it deep down, you are very unusual(!)

As for the girlfriend who has told multiple boyfriends they were special, all of them, I do not see a problem with that at all. Love and logic do not totally overlap! A parent can love all of his or her children, knowing that each one is indeed special, unique, a one time miracle, never to happen again, precious beyond measure. Everyone is special, unique, a miracle, just in being nothing special, ordinary.

I think that those people who become cynical and jaded from repetition have confused art and life. In art, once something has been fully explored, by its highest exponents, then there is not only no need for more, but a reaction against more, and a move towards something unique. But in life, how could you get enough pleasure (over due time, of course)? How could you grow tired of orange juice or pizza or making love?

By depression, I guess, which is a failure of vitality, or maybe a confusing of art and life.

OK. I'm rambling and tired and have decided to cut myself off. Hope some of it was worth reading!

 

[Nitro]

Js,

Sure we should strive to live longer, slowly. However, if all of a sudden science comes up with a breakthrough that stops or reverses aging, our lifespans will increase by a very large amount in a very short amount of time, relatively speaking.

If that were to happen the population would die off, no question. The reason is, resources! We don't have the resources to support a boom in the population. Heck, we don't have the resources to support our current population. If there were a population boom, we all would be living in poverty, and then the poor would die off. Is that what you want?

So the question becomes, do we want a lot of people living a short time, or few people living a long time?

Something else to consider, evolution! The longer our lifespan, the longer it takes to evolve. So if something were to change in our environment, (climate for instance) we could not cope and would die off. If our lifespans are shorter, we would evolve faster and be better able to survive.

Humans will do what it takes to survive, but that doesn't mean they won't find a way to destroy themselves either. (Think Nuke) A breakthrough such as this may seem like a miracle, but is really the devil in disguise.

 

[jtr1962]

Great posts js and Badbeams3!

I'm sure the reliving past bad memories from a very long life wouldn't be a big problem for me. I sometimes forget what I had for dinner yesterday! And I definitely feel forgetting is essential to a happy, vital life. After all, if I remember every bad thing everybody ever did to me, I'd end up hating the whole world.

Regarding having many loves and all of them being special, that's something I have no answer to without the experience of actually living that long. Being in love once, I know I would wait a lifetime to be with her again, and could probably only have one special person in my entire life. And if we were both enternally youthful it would be all the easier. But this was based on a normal human lifetime of perhaps 100 years, about what I could expect given my genes if I take halfway decent care of myself. Now if I were to live 500 or 1000 years, could I be that deeply in love with several different people, perhaps with each relationship lasting a century? I honestly don't know. Some people can have 4 or 5 true loves in one normal lifetime. For me I doubt this is possible. But after 100 years who knows? Even love can get old once you run out of fresh experiences.

Oh, just one more thing to comment on. I agree 100% with you js about extended life being far more believeable than some aspects of space travel. At its heart, the human body is a self-repairing machine. We're not far from inventing machines which can do exactly that. So how much harder would it be to unlock the mechanisms of the carbon-based machines which are our bodies. I for one find that more possible than faster-than-light travel. Believe me, nobody would love FTL travel more than me, but somehow I doubt it is even physically possible, let alone technologically possible. I think we will in time travel at some significant fraction of the speed of light, but intersteller space travel will always be a multidecade affair even in the best case scenario.

 

[Badbeams3]

Thanks for your responce JS. I *think* I understand. Part of wisdom...growing wiser...would be in the wisdom to understand one`s self...and to have an increasing ability to forgive one`s self. Important to mantain the health of the mind. Some might be able to do this easier than others...

The mental health issue I believe...would be big. Perhaps the laws of nature...in several thousand years...people would have a great capacity for forgiveness...