BYD, threat to US automakers or the new VW BUG?

mrfixitman

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2023
Messages
414
Location
San Francisco
Yea pretty much, you ride on roads in modern us cities, you get hit mowed down by cars, happens everyday, you ride on sidewalk you get a ticket and your bike impounded, bike lanes are blocked by double parked cars most of the time. plenty of cars with fake/temp paper lic. plates that do not care if they run you over, you can't find them after. You got to be suicidal to commute on a bike in today's cities. I wont even drive a sedan anymore, nothing smaller than a mid size suv
With proper infrastructure no problem. With ability and rule following also no problem. I always had a light at night. Rode a bicycle in city streets starting in Ohio at.. can't remember.8yo.??? There was even an article in the local paper about us boys riding on the street. The police set them straight. They were concerned for us. Rode my bike in Youngstown, Ohio. No problem. Moved to San Diego. Rode from the Silver Strand to La Jolla and every beach in-between, as well as San Diego State.. The roads there are wide. That helps. Then in 1980 I moved to San Francisco. I did take a lane in heavy traffic. I now ride a Steintrike(gave up the road bike) all over San Francisco. However I have blinding lights front and rear and usually stay in the bike lanes unless I can keep up with traffic. I am now 72. Luck or skills???? I followed the rules.
 

mrfixitman

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2023
Messages
414
Location
San Francisco
Depends on the circumstances. I'll reluctantly give you mine.

I have a diesel, but my girlfriend has a Chevy Volt. We rent our place. A charging port install has been estimated at $3,000+ for our old home (old unit, we'd need a new dedicated circuit and the parking area is not conveniently located).

So that's not happening, though I bet the landlord would be thrilled with our investment into his investment.

We either run a 220V or a 110V extension cord to the parking spot. 35' chords, as there are no outdoor plugs and no garage. Unfortunately this also means lost efficiency. The 110V more than the 220V, because the only 220V outlet is not ideally located, requiring a window to be left open (not safe).

With the 110 V, it takes almost three days to bring her car from 25% to 90%. With the 220V, about a day. At at Level 2 station, about 6 hours. Level 3 (less available, more destructive) takes about 90 minutes.

It's always much cheaper than gas. Much, much cheaper when at home. For local driving and short trips it's more convenient than gas too.

BUT

Road trips, or even long day trips, are not at all convenient. The non-Tesla stations take longer, are few and far in between, and are often out of commission or being used.

We use my car when driving far, when not wanting to add the hassle/time of planning ahead, or if her car doesn't have enough charge.

Things are moving along, but we're not there yet. Not for everyone.
You might need a better 220 v charger. Ours does the job in around 6 hours. All we have is a plug and mobile charger. It does attain 32 amps. 7.2kw. Are you sure your GF doesn't have a Bolt? Volt can charge pretty quick on 120v.
 

mrfixitman

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2023
Messages
414
Location
San Francisco
I'm sure Teal'c would do better than those two.
Who is that?
Car[iv]Model
year[v]
PropulsionTimeLimited
number
hideNoted specifications[vi]
Rimac Nevera[vii]2021Electric1.74 s[5][6]150
Tesla Model S Plaid[vii]2021Electric1.98 s[viii][7][8]
Ferrari SF90 Stradale[vii]2021Hybrid2.0 s[9]
Porsche 918 Spyder[vii]2015Hybrid2.1 s[10][11]918
Porsche 911 Turbo S (992)[vii]2020ICE2.1 s[12]
Lamborghini Huracán Performante[vii]2018ICE2.2 s[13]
Bugatti Chiron Super Sport[vii]2021ICE2.2 s[14]100-110[ix]
Tesla Model S P100D[vii]2017[x]Electric2.28 s[xi][18]with Ludicrous+ Update
Tesla Model X Plaid[vii]2021Electric2.3 s[19][20]
Ferrari 296 GTB2023Hybrid2.3 s[21]
Bugatti Veyron[vii]2005ICE2.4 s[22]450[xii]
Bugatti Chiron Sport[vii]2017ICE2.4 s[23]60
Porsche Taycan Turbo S[vii]2020Electric2.4 s[24][25][26][27]
Tesla Model S Performance w/Ludicrous Mode[vii]2020Electric2.4 s[28]with cheetah stance update
Nissan GT-R Nismo[vii]2020ICE2.48 s[29]
Porsche 911 Turbo S (991 and 991.2)[vii]2014ICE2.5 s[30][31]
Lamborghini Huracán[vii]2015ICE2.5 s[32]
Porsche 911 GT2 RS (991)2018ICE2.5 s[33][34]
McLaren 720S2018ICE2.5 s[35]
BMW M8 Competition[vii]2019ICE2.5 s[36]
Lamborghini Aventador SVJ[vii]2019ICE2.5 s[37]963
Porsche 911 Turbo S (997)[vii]2011ICE2.6 s[38][39][40]
Lamborghini Aventador SV[vii]2015ICE2.6 s[41]600
Tesla Model S P90D w/Ludicrous Speed Upgrade[vii]2015Electric2.6 s[42]
McLaren P12015Hybrid2.6 s[43]375
Audi R8 V10 Plus[vii]2017ICE2.6 s[44]
Mercedes-AMG GT63 S[vii]2018ICE2.6 s[45][46]
Dodge Challenger SRT Demon2018ICE2.6 s[47]33001-seat
BMW M5 Competition[vii]2019ICE2.6 s[48][49]
BMW M5 CS[vii]2020ICE2.6 s[50]1000
Lamborghini Huracán STO[vii]2021ICE2.6 s[51]
Porsche Panamera Turbo S[vii]2021ICE2.6 s[52][53]
Lucid Air Dream Edition Performance2022 [vii]Electric2.6 s[54]520[xiii]
McLaren Artura2023Hybrid2.6 s[55]
Chevrolet Corvette (C8) Z062023ICE2.6 s[56]Corvette bottom of this list.
 
Last edited:

ItnStln

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
80
Who is that?
Car[iv]Model
year[v]
PropulsionTimeLimited
number
hideNoted specifications[vi]
Rimac Nevera[vii]2021Electric1.74 s[5][6]150
Tesla Model S Plaid[vii]2021Electric1.98 s[viii][7][8]
Ferrari SF90 Stradale[vii]2021Hybrid2.0 s[9]
Porsche 918 Spyder[vii]2015Hybrid2.1 s[10][11]918
Porsche 911 Turbo S (992)[vii]2020ICE2.1 s[12]
Lamborghini Huracán Performante[vii]2018ICE2.2 s[13]
Bugatti Chiron Super Sport[vii]2021ICE2.2 s[14]100-110[ix]
Tesla Model S P100D[vii]2017[x]Electric2.28 s[xi][18]with Ludicrous+ Update
Tesla Model X Plaid[vii]2021Electric2.3 s[19][20]
Ferrari 296 GTB2023Hybrid2.3 s[21]
Bugatti Veyron[vii]2005ICE2.4 s[22]450[xii]
Bugatti Chiron Sport[vii]2017ICE2.4 s[23]60
Porsche Taycan Turbo S[vii]2020Electric2.4 s[24][25][26][27]
Tesla Model S Performance w/Ludicrous Mode[vii]2020Electric2.4 s[28]with cheetah stance update
Nissan GT-R Nismo[vii]2020ICE2.48 s[29]
Porsche 911 Turbo S (991 and 991.2)[vii]2014ICE2.5 s[30][31]
Lamborghini Huracán[vii]2015ICE2.5 s[32]
Porsche 911 GT2 RS (991)2018ICE2.5 s[33][34]
McLaren 720S2018ICE2.5 s[35]
BMW M8 Competition[vii]2019ICE2.5 s[36]
Lamborghini Aventador SVJ[vii]2019ICE2.5 s[37]963
Porsche 911 Turbo S (997)[vii]2011ICE2.6 s[38][39][40]
Lamborghini Aventador SV[vii]2015ICE2.6 s[41]600
Tesla Model S P90D w/Ludicrous Speed Upgrade[vii]2015Electric2.6 s[42]
McLaren P12015Hybrid2.6 s[43]375
Audi R8 V10 Plus[vii]2017ICE2.6 s[44]
Mercedes-AMG GT63 S[vii]2018ICE2.6 s[45][46]
Dodge Challenger SRT Demon2018ICE2.6 s[47]33001-seat
BMW M5 Competition[vii]2019ICE2.6 s[48][49]
BMW M5 CS[vii]2020ICE2.6 s[50]1000
Lamborghini Huracán STO[vii]2021ICE2.6 s[51]
Porsche Panamera Turbo S[vii]2021ICE2.6 s[52][53]
Lucid Air Dream Edition Performance2022 [vii]Electric2.6 s[54]520[xiii]
McLaren Artura2023Hybrid2.6 s[55]
Chevrolet Corvette (C8) Z062023ICE2.6 s[56]Corvette bottom of this list.
1711489640549.gif
 

sim1tti

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
135
You might need a better 220 v charger. Ours does the job in around 6 hours. All we have is a plug and mobile charger. It does attain 32 amps. 7.2kw. Are you sure your GF doesn't have a Bolt? Volt can charge pretty quick on 120v.
It's a Bolt (my mistake). Economy model. Not a very fast charging EV, but a good little car.

Charger is the one that came with the car. It's specked to take 14 hours with a 20A 240V outlet at 100% efficiency. Reality is aprox 20 hours. Definitely not 32A, but guessing the increased home charge time is on account of extra long chord and/or the old panel/wiring which is probably from the 60's––one of many things in my place I would replace it if I owned it. The breaker box is notably "vintage" looking. Doesn't take much to loose 30% efficiency. We've plugged it in at newer places and the speed improves some (not drastically). Extension cord length and gauge is definitely a factor.

6 hours is what Level 2 charge stations take for it to gain 50 or 60%.
 

mrfixitman

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2023
Messages
414
Location
San Francisco
It's a Bolt (my mistake). Economy model. Not a very fast charging EV, but a good little car.

Charger is the one that came with the car. It's specked to take 14 hours with a 20A 240V outlet at 100% efficiency. Reality is aprox 20 hours. Definitely not 32A, but guessing the increased home charge time is on account of extra long chord and/or the old panel/wiring which is probably from the 60's––one of many things in my place I would replace it if I owned it. The breaker box is notably "vintage" looking. Doesn't take much to loose 30% efficiency. We've plugged it in at newer places and the speed improves some (not drastically). Extension cord length and gauge is definitely a factor.

6 hours is what Level 2 charge stations take for it to gain 50 or 60%.
I don't think the Bolt charges any slower than other EVs. Do a little research. See what your statistics are from the Bolt display. It may show charge level. Find the max capability of your charger. If that can be improved think about a new charger. If it is the panel see if that can be up graded. Did a little searching. Your charger may be the one that is 8, 16 or 32 mps. That may mean you will only get 12 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Further checking shows conflicting information. So look at what your car is doing. Try to get access to a 40 amp or larger service.
 
Last edited:

TPA

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
401
Location
Florida
@TPA, are you able to share the math you did to arrive at the conclusion that the ICE you chose is more environmentally friendly, cradle to grave, than a comparable EV?
I wish I did. I did that 7 years ago when trying to figure out what to replace my lemon car with. That was some of what I lost in Hurricane Ian's storm surge. The numbers were substantially better for the ICE. My original spec for this car had a diesel-hybrid powertrain. Such a configuration got a legitimate 85+ MPG (not the eMPG garbage), with some people getting 90+ MPG...in a luxury barge, not some dreadful Prius. The US EPA prohibited that, saying to get their approved gasoline version which only got 28 MPG, with the EPA saying it was "less polluting"... 28MPG vs. 85MPG... less polluting my ***. Not to mention that the gasoline version puts out far more soot than the diesel. I do run this car in a non-EPA approved configuration which gets me 43-45 MPG.

No need for charging stations. All you need is a socket. The EVSE that comes with EVs, especially the marvelous Tesla Mobile adapter ($220)which comes with standard and 14-50 plugs, is all you need. Plug and go.
Sure, there's 14-50 plugs everywhere...NOT. Then you have to power it. The entire electrical service for the temporary condo I'm living in is only 60A. So I'd practically have to shut everything in the condo down to charge the car.

Upgrading that would require the power co upgrade the transformer, possibly run new underground lines TO the transformer from the grid, run new wires underground, new meter box, new master disconnect, new wires run from the disconnect outside to the inside breaker panel, new breaker panel, new wires run from the panel upstairs downstairs to where it might be able to reach to a car.... That's easily $5k-$20k.
It's always much cheaper than gas. Much, much cheaper when at home.
Gas would be much, much cheaper without road taxes too. When taxes make up $1-1.50/gallon of the price, the gasoline itself isn't pricey. Back in the day it was actually cheaper for me to run one of my condos on generator than the local utility. With my condo being set up for solar, energy loads were minimal including HVAC. Back then the break-even point was around $0.10/kWh for the generator to be cheaper.
 

sim1tti

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
135
I don't think the Bolt charges any slower than other EVs. Do a little research. See what your statistics are from the Bolt display. It may show charge level. Find the max capability of your charger. If that can be improved think about a new charger. If it is the panel see if that can be up graded. Did a little searching. Your charger may be the one that is 8, 16 or 32 mps. That may mean you will only get 12 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Further checking shows conflicting information. So look at what your car is doing. Try to get access to a 40 amp or larger service.
Unknown to my GF at the time of the Bolt purchase, some EVs do charge faster/slower than other EVs. She bought one on the slower end of the spectrum.

We've looked into the issue, and your right; the consensus seems to be the 20A 240V in our place caps charging to 60% in 11or 12 hours best case. Something called the 80% rule––also unknown to us at the time of purchase. The rest of slowness (8 hours) could be a number of things. Like I said, old place, long extension cord. We won't be upgrading the panel on our rental, which would cost thousands. Different calculus if we owned. That legislation you referenced earlier also doesn't apply to us, even though we live in Ca. Even if it did, we'd have to pony up thousands to the owner.

It's good legislation. Better than nothing. Still lacking.
 

mrfixitman

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 16, 2023
Messages
414
Location
San Francisco
I wish I did. I did that 7 years ago when trying to figure out what to replace my lemon car with. That was some of what I lost in Hurricane Ian's storm surge. The numbers were substantially better for the ICE. My original spec for this car had a diesel-hybrid powertrain. Such a configuration got a legitimate 85+ MPG (not the eMPG garbage), with some people getting 90+ MPG...in a luxury barge, not some dreadful Prius. The US EPA prohibited that, saying to get their approved gasoline version which only got 28 MPG, with the EPA saying it was "less polluting"... 28MPG vs. 85MPG... less polluting my ***. Not to mention that the gasoline version puts out far more soot than the diesel. I do run this car in a non-EPA approved configuration which gets me 43-45 MPG.


Sure, there's 14-50 plugs everywhere...NOT. Then you have to power it. The entire electrical service for the temporary condo I'm living in is only 60A. So I'd practically have to shut everything in the condo down to charge the car.

Upgrading that would require the power co upgrade the transformer, possibly run new underground lines TO the transformer from the grid, run new wires underground, new meter box, new master disconnect, new wires run from the disconnect outside to the inside breaker panel, new breaker panel, new wires run from the panel upstairs downstairs to where it might be able to reach to a car.... That's easily $5k-$20k.

Gas would be much, much cheaper without road taxes too. When taxes make up $1-1.50/gallon of the price, the gasoline itself isn't pricey. Back in the day it was actually cheaper for me to run one of my condos on generator than the local utility. With my condo being set up for solar, energy loads were minimal including HVAC. Back then the break-even point was around $0.10/kWh for the generator to be cheaper.
My model 3 is 130 mpge. The 3 has a range of 272 miles. It's battery holds 58kwh. Two gallons of gas equivalent. Roughly. How far does your vehicle go on two gallons? Multiply your kwh charge by 58 to calculate cost of a full charge for the 3. Colorado, that would be $2.90. Hawaii $26.68.
 

sim1tti

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
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I wish I did. I did that 7 years ago when trying to figure out what to replace my lemon car with. That was some of what I lost in Hurricane Ian's storm surge. The numbers were substantially better for the ICE. My original spec for this car had a diesel-hybrid powertrain. Such a configuration got a legitimate 85+ MPG (not the eMPG garbage), with some people getting 90+ MPG...in a luxury barge, not some dreadful Prius. The US EPA prohibited that, saying to get their approved gasoline version which only got 28 MPG, with the EPA saying it was "less polluting"... 28MPG vs. 85MPG... less polluting my ***. Not to mention that the gasoline version puts out far more soot than the diesel. I do run this car in a non-EPA approved configuration which gets me 43-45 MPG.
85 MPG.... Wow! I can see how that would change the calculus.

I've tried to figure out a method to figure out at what point diesel is more polluting than gas, but to no avail. Feels like and apples to oranges comparison, and different delegations value the harmfulness of gas vs diesel particulate differently. EU vs US is prime example of that. Though I have a Dieslegate VW that suffered no performance or efficiency loss when brought into compliance with Ca emission regs, so I'm not sure what the big deal is there.
Sure, there's 14-50 plugs everywhere...NOT. Then you have to power it. The entire electrical service for the temporary condo I'm living in is only 60A. So I'd practically have to shut everything in the condo down to charge the car.
This is close to my situation. I'd just say that it just means you can't charge with a 30+amp charging. We do fine with 20A and 15A circuits. Like I said earlier though, not as convenient if going on a trip.
 

sim1tti

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Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
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My model 3 is 130 mpge. The 3 has a range of 272 miles. It's battery holds 58kwh. Two gallons of gas equivalent. Roughly. How far does your vehicle go on two gallons? Multiply your kwh charge by 58 to calculate cost of a full charge for the 3. Colorado, that would be $2.90. Hawaii $26.68.
Gas would be much, much cheaper without road taxes too. When taxes make up $1-1.50/gallon of the price, the gasoline itself isn't pricey....
Without taxes on gas, no doubt it would be cheaper to run a ICEV. Especially where I live. But I could say the same about electricity costs, taxes, or many things.

Here are the numbers we ran for our specific situation to figure out the economy of the Bolt against my TDI. The first is for comparing a 300 mile road trip. The second for 300 miles of typical weekly driving.

The EV wins in cost on both accounts. Heavily for normal driving. Less convenient on the 300 mile road trip and less of a $win, but still cheaper. If it were a lot longer than 300 miles the EV would start loosing out on price eventually.

You can see how the home electricity price factors highly into the price advantage of running an EV. Without it, the advantage begins to evaporate. The cost of electricity vs. gas from locality to locality also makes a difference. Skewing things to the other side, I have a very fuel efficient ICEV.

**Edit note 3/30/24:

This chart uses outdated rates and methods from when we were less well acquainted with personal EV use.

The figures here do not account for the risen costs of diesel, residential electricity, or charge station rates. They also don't account for higher "Tier 3" residential electricity rates which we pay when we go over the "Tier 2" allotment (a big deal). Lastly, they do not account for efficiency loss of the electricity going from the home outlet to the EV battery.

I will try to account for these things in a post with updated figures.
I expect it to show higher costs for both ICEV and EV use, a modestly less favorable picture of EV fuel expense, but EV use still being generally cheaper.


End edit note**

300 mile road trip


Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Level 3 Charge, Road$0.543.4100$0.1629.41$15.88
Bolt, Home Tier 2$0.143.450$0.0414.71$2.06
Bolt, Home Tier 1$0.123.4150$0.0444.12$5.29
Total for Bolt trip$0.263.4300$0.0888.24$23.24
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

300 miles normal driving

Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Home, Tier 2$0.143.480$0.0423.53$3.29
Bolt, Home, Tier 1$0.123.4220$0.0464.71$7.76
Total for week, Bolt$0.133.4300$0.0488.24$11.06
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI, week$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

Edit: syntax, month to week
 
Last edited:

TPA

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Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
401
Location
Florida
My model 3 is 130 mpge. The 3 has a range of 272 miles. It's battery holds 58kwh. Two gallons of gas equivalent. Roughly. How far does your vehicle go on two gallons? Multiply your kwh charge by 58 to calculate cost of a full charge for the 3. Colorado, that would be $2.90. Hawaii $26.68.
Funny how you focus on cost when you were originally touting (incorrectly) as EVs somehow being better for the environment.

I get about 650-700 miles per tank before I refuel. Takes 3 minutes to refuel. No doubt I can probably squeak out another 100-200 miles, but I don't like living life on the edge.

I don't have my electric bill here in front of me, but I typically use 150-300kWh/month for my condo. In Florida, with AC and dehumidifiers running 24/7. If the battery holds 58kWh, then you're going to need 72.5kWh from the grid to get there due to losses. I drive about 1,700 miles/month (less if flying). So, 1,700/272 Model3 range = 6.25 charges of 72.5kWh needed.. 453kWh/month... more than my condo uses! And where does all of that power come from? Coal. Oil. Diesel. Lovely. and that's neglecting that I have no way of getting power to my car at my condo.

Without taxes on gas, no doubt it would be cheaper to run a ICEV. Especially where I live. But I could say the same about electricity costs, taxes, or many things.

Here are the numbers we ran for our specific situation to figure out the economy of the Bolt against my TDI. The first is for comparing a 300 mile road trip. The second for 300 miles of typical weekly driving.

The EV wins in cost on both accounts. Heavily for normal driving. Less convenient on the 300 mile road trip and less of a $win, but still cheaper. If it were a lot longer than 300 miles the EV would start loosing out on price eventually.

You can see how the home electricity price factors highly into the price advantage of running an EV. Without it, the advantage begins to evaporate. The cost of electricity vs. gas from locality to locality also makes a difference. Skewing things to the other side, I have a very fuel efficient ICEV.

300 mile road trip
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Level 3 Charge, Road$0.543.4100$0.1629.41$15.88
Bolt, Home Tier 2$0.143.450$0.0414.71$2.06
Bolt, Home Tier 1$0.123.4150$0.0444.12$5.29
Total for Bolt trip$0.263.4300$0.0888.24$23.24
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

300 miles normal driving
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Home, Tier 2$0.143.480$0.0423.53$3.29
Bolt, Home, Tier 1$0.123.4220$0.0464.71$7.76
Total for week, Bolt$0.133.4300$0.0488.24$11.06
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI, week$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

Edit: syntax, month to week
$4.80/gallon? OUCH. I'm curious, does your fuel cost for your Bolt include all of the taxes and bullshit fees charged by the electric co? At one of my locations, the electric co charges $25/mo just for being a customer and they've whacked me once or twice with a "minimum monthly charge" because they said I didn't use enough electricity.

I just paid $3.30/gallon for premium. So assuming 43 MPG (it's above 80F again, so heavy aircon), $0.076/mile. Back out the taxes and that goes down to $0.065/mile...and I'm driving a barge which weighs an extra ~500 lbs due to the extra equipment and customizations to my specs. The only compromise made here was not installing the twin-turbo V8 600 hp monster. I figured the car was going to do most of the driving by itself, and it won't complain about engine performance, and I still have some "go fast" cars if I need to blow off some steam.

Re: taxes... someone's got to pay for the roads. EVs put more wear and tear on the roads due to weight, but aren't paying into the system. At some point, the government will act, and I'm sure it will be ham-fisted in typical government fashion. GM's cars already sell your driving data to LexisNexis and many other data brokers. I don't know about Tesla. It's only a matter of time before it's time to pay the piper.

Anyone remember when Tesla's superchargers were free? Not anymore. Now they'll even charge you "congestion charges" at $1/minute for charging for the 'luxury' of charging at convenient times.
 

sim1tti

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Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
135
$4.80/gallon? OUCH. I'm curious, does your fuel cost for your Bolt include all of the taxes and bullshit fees charged by the electric co? At one of my locations, the electric co charges $25/mo just for being a customer and they've whacked me once or twice with a "minimum monthly charge" because they said I didn't use enough electricity.

I just paid $3.30/gallon for premium. So assuming 43 MPG (it's above 80F again, so heavy aircon), $0.076/mile. Back out the taxes and that goes down to $0.065/mile...and I'm driving a barge which weighs an extra ~500 lbs due to the extra equipment and customizations to my specs. The only compromise made here was not installing the twin-turbo V8 600 hp monster. I figured the car was going to do most of the driving by itself, and it won't complain about engine performance, and I still have some "go fast" cars if I need to blow off some steam.
Ha! Yeah, diesel has gotten expensive out here. They do more to it to make it cleaner, and it's taxed even heavier. Those are old numbers too. Over $5/gal right now. It hit $7 at one point. Gas is a little cheaper. Not $3.30 though!

Electricity rates are also higher now; $0.14 and $0.21. Our utility provider is a convicted mass murderer and has billions to pay in restitution and infrastructure fixes. Passed through to the consumer, naturally. They're doing good things also. Mainly because they're being forced.

I did include the utility tax in the calc, but not the customer charge since it's a flat fee and we pay it regardless of use. It's abut the same as yours.
Re: taxes... someone's got to pay for the roads. EVs put more wear and tear on the roads due to weight, but aren't paying into the system. At some point, the government will act, and I'm sure it will be ham-fisted in typical government fashion. GM's cars already sell your driving data to LexisNexis and many other data brokers. I don't know about Tesla. It's only a matter of time before it's time to pay the piper.
Some states have extra reg fees for EVs, but not here yet I don't think. People should recognize it's coming once adoption becomes more wide spread. Will probably be linked to odometer reading with annual reg fee. Not sure. Others probably know more.
Anyone remember when Tesla's superchargers were free? Not anymore. Now they'll even charge you "congestion charges" at $1/minute for charging for the 'luxury' of charging at convenient times.
The current Tesla experience is definitely better than other EVs. They have better rapid charge rates, speeds, more charge stations, and better tech. A much more developed infrastructure built out for their owners, but it's proprietary. I believe there's a move to make it more universal. Deals being struck.

The level 2 and 3 non-proprietary charge station rates absolutely need to come down in price if they're going to make this work. Competition will help, but Level 2 should be under $0.25/kWh and easily available for public parking. I think it'll happen when more people get in the game. Too much money to be made.
 
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mrfixitman

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Without taxes on gas, no doubt it would be cheaper to run a ICEV. Especially where I live. But I could say the same about electricity costs, taxes, or many things.

Here are the numbers we ran for our specific situation to figure out the economy of the Bolt against my TDI. The first is for comparing a 300 mile road trip. The second for 300 miles of typical weekly driving.

The EV wins in cost on both accounts. Heavily for normal driving. Less convenient on the 300 mile road trip and less of a $win, but still cheaper. If it were a lot longer than 300 miles the EV would start loosing out on price eventually.

You can see how the home electricity price factors highly into the price advantage of running an EV. Without it, the advantage begins to evaporate. The cost of electricity vs. gas from locality to locality also makes a difference. Skewing things to the other side, I have a very fuel efficient ICEV.

300 mile road trip
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Level 3 Charge, Road$0.543.4100$0.1629.41$15.88
Bolt, Home Tier 2$0.143.450$0.0414.71$2.06
Bolt, Home Tier 1$0.123.4150$0.0444.12$5.29
Total for Bolt trip$0.263.4300$0.0888.24$23.24
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

300 miles normal driving
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Home, Tier 2$0.143.480$0.0423.53$3.29
Bolt, Home, Tier 1$0.123.4220$0.0464.71$7.76
Total for week, Bolt$0.133.4300$0.0488.24$11.06
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI, week$4.8045300$0.116.67$32.00

Edit: syntax, month to week
In normal use 1/3 the cost for fuel and from a $20k EV. What do the doubters say now? Road trips or charging away from home could be helped by plugshare.com users sharing a plug. Thousands of people across the country. Community run with the ability to point out new locations.
 

sim1tti

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In normal use 1/3 the cost for fuel and from a $20k EV. What do the doubters say now? Road trips or charging away from home could be helped by plugshare.com users sharing a plug. Thousands of people across the country. Community run with the ability to point out new locations.
I think the Bolt was actually closer to $30k for her, new. Still cheaper than most cars.

For our situation, the cost advantage doesn't flip till around 500 miles. Then the TDI becomes the cheaper option (chart below). All because of needing to use additional Level 3 charging station rates. Of course there's the matter an 1 hour+ of waiting for the charge between two stops when the TDI would do the whole thing on a tank.

If we had a Tesla, it would flip later. If we didn't have in unit parking and access to an outlet, it would flip earlier

Plugshare.com is a good resource. If more people were contributing updates it would be better. Sucks getting to a charge station only to find it is offline or all spaces are being used.

**Edit note 3/30/24:

This chart uses outdated rates and methods from when we were less well acquainted with personal EV use.

The figures here do not account for the risen costs of diesel, residential electricity, or charge station rates. They also don't account for higher "Tier 3" residential electricity rates which we pay when we go over the "Tier 2" allotment (a big deal). Lastly, they do not account for efficiency loss of the electricity going from the home outlet to the EV battery.

I will try to account for these things in a post with updated figures.
I expect it to show higher costs for both ICEV and EV use, a modestly less favorable picture of EV fuel expense, but EV use still being generally cheaper.


End edit note**


500 mile road trip

Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/kWh)Fuel Economy (Miles/kWh)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (kWh)Cost of Trip ($)
Bolt, Level 3 Charge, Road$0.543.4300$0.1688.24$47.65
Bolt, Home Tier 2$0.143.450$0.0414.71$2.06
Bolt, Home Tier 1$0.123.4150$0.0444.12$5.29
Total for Bolt trip$0.373.4500$0.11147.06$55.00
Car and Energy RateFuel cost ($/Gal)Fuel Economy (Miles/Gal)Trip Distance (miles)Fiscal Economy ($/Mile)Energy Usage for Trip (Gal)Cost of Trip ($)
VW TDI$4.8045500$0.1111.11$53.33
 
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