Throw

[artec540]

This is really aimed at Patriot 36, if he still has patience!

In another forum it was stated that the best combination for throw was a Cree XRE and an aspheric lens. Throw and skinny beam is what I'm still aiming for, with some success but still not reaching the target. Wirth the best will in the world I can't reach the $2200 level, so is tere a combination of Cree XRE and aspheric lens available commercially? If not, is tere anything that I can buy and modify myself (bearing in mind my limited knowledge) that would produce what I'm after? I should add that I have an aversion to Maglites,, modified or un-........ I don't know why!

On another, but related, topic, I tried an informal comparison between my Eznite with 4 x RCR 123A Tenergy cells and my Wolf-eyes 24W with 168 R and was astonished to find that the Eznite, with only 10 W was either the equal, or almost the equal, of the 24 W Wolf-eyes. I'm going to try some photos shortly to see whether the comparison stands up, but that EZnite is really something isn't it! I'm going to explore what else JIL makes!

 

[Patriot]

The mag really is the best platform for a Cree and aspheric lens combo. Nothing is available ready made and commercially. Remember that you can use a mag body of any size, 1 D or C sizes are popular for aspherics. With a little bit of machining and a custom bezel they don't even look like mag lights anymore.

Your other LED option would be to go with something like the Tiablo A9, Raidfire Spear, or Dereelight DBS but these will have more spill than an aspheric. We're kinda crossing over into the LED forum with this topic though.


The EZnite throws so well because of its high quality reflector and tiny arc. It's not too surprising that it throws farther than the 24W.

 

[StarHalo]

If not, is tere anything that I can buy and modify myself (bearing in mind my limited knowledge) that would produce what I'm after?

You might check out the TerraLUX TLE-300, it's a simple Mag drop-in that puts out ~600 lumens for 2 hours in a 4D Mag; It's essentially just three LEDs, each with its own collimator lens geared specifically for throw, all in a self-contained drop-in puck with all the necessary circuitry. It's a minimal difficulty install, you remove the stock Mag reflector and bulb, put the TLE-300 in the socket, done.

I mainly use my TLE-300 Mag on night walks down our suburb street to the area mailbox. Any time a car drives by going the same direction, it's a perfect side-by-side comparison of light output, and you can't miss it - the Mag is putting out just as much light as the car (the cars don't miss it either, as they usually slow down). It's still impressive every time I see it.

The TLE-300 is my fave Mag drop-in based on its ease of install, use of standard batteries, and good old "damn that's bright"-ness. I've always liked the idea of an LED hotwire/ROP that doesn't require any modding, and this certainly fills the bill.

See it here: http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-300.html

 

[Gunner12]

The TLE-300 is brighter, but it won't throw as far as the aspheric lens, which at least from the numbers, throws further then the Dereelight DBS.

KD does have a kit here, here's just the lens. You can make a brighter drop-in if you wanted.

 

[Patriot]

Like Gunner already stated, the TLE-300 is not a thrower. It's more of a flood light.

For the best performance, you might use a Malkoff Device and the 52mm aspheric. It's more money but it does have a reputation for great output and heatsinking. If you go that way, know what size mag you'll be using and at what voltage, since there are two voltage choices for the Malkoff.

 

[StarHalo]

the TLE-300 is not a thrower. It's more of a flood light.

Alrighty!

 

[artec540]

The mag really is the best platform for a Cree and aspheric lens combo. Nothing is available ready made and commercially. Remember that you can use a mag body of any size, 1 D or C sizes are popular for aspherics. With a little bit of machining and a custom bezel they don't even look like mag lights anymore.

Your other LED option would be to go with something like the Tiablo A9, Raidfire Spear, or Dereelight DBS but these will have more spill than an aspheric. We're kinda crossing over into the LED forum with this topic though.


The EZnite throws so well because of its high quality reflector and tiny arc. It's not too surprising that it throws farther than the 24W.

As ever, Patriot 36 and Gnner12, thanks so much for your help

I'm sure the TLE is a great light and it certainly sounds easy enough, even for me, but if it's a flood, it's not what I'm after.

As I said, I'm not crazy about Mag lights as a base, I'll take anything of a reasonable size if it gives me my throw! As it happens,I've got a Black Bear that I was going to sell that I would be happy to convert, or have some-one else convert for me, to give more throw. In its standard form I found it disappointing, as you warned me I would. Unfortunately, I'd ordered the thing before I read your warning. It already has an HID bulb and quite a neat 12 v battery pack, and I have both smooth and stippled reflectors. Is there an aspheric lens that would organize its output or is there anyone who could/would teach it to do what I want?

I don't want to carry on discussions in the wrong forum and would be perfectly happy to move to another one if that would be more appropriate, as I understand would be the case to talk about the Tiablo, Raidfire and DBS, which I shall explore anyway.

On the subject of aspheric lenses, from what I remember of the optics I learned at school, I would have expected each combination of bulb, reflector, diameter etc to call for a lens of different curvature, not merely different diameter, to produce as narrow a beam as possible. Since people simplytalk about "an aspheric lens", presumably meaning one that isn't part-spherical, what am I missing? And why isn't there an ideal combination of plano-convex or concavo-convex or whatever, for each individual flashlight and bulb?

Please don't hesitate to tell me that you have, like whoever it was in Alice, answered enough questions........ I don't like to feel I'm being a bloody nuisance and will shut up whenever you tell me to. But in the meantime, Thank you for your generous help.

 

[artec540]

You might check out the TerraLUX TLE-300, it's a simple Mag drop-in that puts out ~600 lumens for 2 hours in a 4D Mag; It's essentially just three LEDs, each with its own collimator lens geared specifically for throw, all in a self-contained drop-in puck with all the necessary circuitry. It's a minimal difficulty install, you remove the stock Mag reflector and bulb, put the TLE-300 in the socket, done.

I mainly use my TLE-300 Mag on night walks down our suburb street to the area mailbox. Any time a car drives by going the same direction, it's a perfect side-by-side comparison of light output, and you can't miss it - the Mag is putting out just as much light as the car (the cars don't miss it either, as they usually slow down). It's still impressive every time I see it.

The TLE-300 is my fave Mag drop-in based on its ease of install, use of standard batteries, and good old "damn that's bright"-ness. I've always liked the idea of an LED hotwire/ROP that doesn't require any modding, and this certainly fills the bill.

See it here: http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-300.html

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, StarHalo. Your TLE 300 sounds great for competing with aggressive cars (I've got one with Xenon lights, so I know what you mean!), but I'm really after a one or two degree wide beam. Of course, I'd be happy with the same range and some flood if there was enough light to reach my target,but I can't afford $2200, unfortunately!

Anyway, thanks again. This is a great forum for a beginner, like me, because there are so many members who are willing to help.

 

[AlexGT]

Saabluster made a big Cree aspheric that could throw like a laser using a Subaru SVX optic, I'm still looking for the optic he used to build myself one, look at his tread here

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183261

 

[Patriot]

Like Gunner already stated, the TLE-300 is not a thrower. It's more of a flood light.

StarHalo
Alrighty!

By their very nature, multi-LED lights throw wide, large, smooth beams, whether they use small reflectors or optics. They're great area/work lights but very poor at getting light to a tree line at 150 yards. In the spectrum of lights, few combinations will produce more flood unless the beam is intentionally diffused whether by a heavily textured reflector or by an obscured lens of some type.

Rather than beating around the bush with unfounded opinions, I'll put it to you straight.

Below are three lights:

Wiseled 1500, (7 X P4 emitters, adjustable from about 450 to 1500 lumens)

Lumapower MRV Q5 smooth reflector

Mac's aspheric, 1 X 18650

The beam shots below are of the Wiseled 1500 set to level three (a little over 600 lumens) next to the Lumapower MRV Q5 smooth (250 lumens).

Note how much more intense the hot spot is from the MRV.

The next picture is with the Wiseled set to high (1500 lumens) on left, MRV in the middle and the Mac's aspheric on the right.

Note how that even at 1500 lumens the Wiseled is no more insense at its brightest point that the 250 lumen MRV. See how much more intense the aspheric is than the other two lights.

As bright as the Wiseled 1500 is, I still consider it a very floody light. It's not a thrower by any means. Even at the 1500's maximum output the MRV, with single LED and single smooth reflector, can throw a bit further. You'll also notice that the optics used in the Wiseled are very similar to the TLE-300 only it has a 4 more and the P4 LEDs are driven harder. You'll also notice that neither come close to the throw ability of the aspheric mag.

 

[Gunner12]

IIRC the Black Bear is a Mag85 made with good parts. So it does not have a HID bulb. It uses an overdriven high pressure incan blub, if it's a Mag85, then it would be using the Welch Allyn 1185 bulb. I made one and it throw pretty well for me, but for more throw, you might have to look at HID. The Aspheric Mag can throw a bit further(the narrower beam would help too) but to get even more throw, you pretty much have to go HID.

What's your target distance for throw?

 

[artec540]

Saabluster made a big Cree aspheric that could throw like a laser using a Subaru SVX optic, I'm still looking for the optic he used to build myself one, look at his tread here

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183261

Thanks for that link! I envy him his ability to improvise a flamethrower for himself........ maybe when I've learned a lot more I'd be able to do something similar! But alas, not yet!

 

[Patriot]

As ever, Patriot 36 and Gnner12, thanks so much for your help

I'm sure the TLE is a great light and it certainly sounds easy enough, even for me, but if it's a flood, it's not what I'm after.

As it happens,I've got a Black Bear that I was going to sell that I would be happy to convert, or have some-one else convert for me, to give more throw. In its standard form I found it disappointing, as you warned me I would. Unfortunately, I'd ordered the thing before I read your warning. It already has an HID bulb and quite a neat 12 v battery pack, and I have both smooth and stippled reflectors. Is there an aspheric lens that would organize its output or is there anyone who could/would teach it to do what I want?

artec, the Black Bear doesn't have a "HID" bulb in it. It has an incandescent filament, halogen/xenon bulb, which is most likely the WA1185. HID bulbs don't use a filament, they instead use an arc of excited plasma that bridges between two electrodes. It's a different type altogether.

artec540
Is there an aspheric lens that would organize its output or is there anyone who could/would teach it to do what I want?

An aspheric lens will work with some incandescent bulbs, but the beam quality usually is fairly poor even with the best combinations. Just as the aspheric focuses an image of the LED die, it will also focus and image of the halogen filament. While the LED is flat and smooth, the filament is longer and often radiused in some way, so the lens will only be able to project a tiny portion of the filament in focus while most of it is left out of focus. Some people do it but I've always been left unimpressed with the results.

artec540
On the subject of aspheric lenses, from what I remember of the optics I learned at school, I would have expected each combination of bulb, reflector, diameter etc to call for a lens of different curvature, not merely different diameter, to produce as narrow a beam as possible. Since people simplytalk about "an aspheric lens", presumably meaning one that isn't part-spherical, what am I missing? And why isn't there an ideal combination of plano-convex or concavo-convex or whatever, for each individual flashlight and bulb?

It's true that there is rarely the perfect or ideal match. We only have a choice of so many lenses and LEDs. That said, aspherics don't use any reflector. If a reflector is there is doesn't lower performance, but it doesn't help anything either. The ideal match is primarily determined by focal length so turning the mag head in or out focuses or de-focuses the emitter. I can't remember the focal length for the 52mm aspheric but I think it's somewhere around 35mm. It may be listed in the KD specs too.

 

[artec540]

IIRC the Black Bear is a Mag85 made with good parts. So it does not have a HID bulb. It uses an overdriven high pressure incan blub, if it's a Mag85, then it would be using the Welch Allyn 1185 bulb. I made one and it throw pretty well for me, but for more throw, you might have to look at HID. The Aspheric Mag can throw a bit further(the narrower beam would help too) but to get even more throw, you pretty much have to go HID.

What's your target distance for throw?

Thanks Gunner12, you're right, of course, it's not an HID, I was wool-gathering. As it happened, I had the Bear advertised and landed a buyer immediately after my last post. So I shan't be using that as a base. From what I can see now, the use of an aspheric lens is an essential component of any really long thrower. Would it be true that incans that are bright enough are probably too big physically to be focussed accurately enough? And maybe the more powerful HIDs as well? The 10 W HID in the EZnite does an excellent job considering that it doesn't have an aspheric but it's not long enough. I don't know about the aspheric mag, I'll have to find out about it.
I don't really have any specific target throw......... I just want more than I've got!

 

[Gunner12]

Another difference between LEDs and Incas is the angle they emit at.

LEDs emit at around a 180 degree angle, while incans emit at a 360 degree angle. Since a lens only has so much surface, you will loose a lot more light with an incan then with a LED.

Throw also has to do with the size of the emitting area. HIDs have a relatively small emitting surface compare to their output, so they can throw pretty well even with a smaller sized reflector. An incan of the same output as a 30 watt HID lamps would have a pretty large filiment and would need a much larger reflector to have the same beam angle(and hence throw) as the HID. A very powerful HID can have a small emitting area but it's not the same with incans.

A well designed refelctor works better with 360 degree light emitters(HIDs and Incans) then a lens.

 

[Patriot]

I just noticed that your Black Bear sold...Congrats!

To be honest with you, the WA1185 in conjunction with that smooth reflector, would actually be considered a good throw light for it's size. In order to do much better than that, you'd be looking at a smooth reflectored HID light like the Xenide25W.

 

[artec540]

artec, the Black Bear doesn't have a "HID" bulb in it. It has an incandescent filament, halogen/xenon bulb, which is most likely the WA1185. HID bulbs don't use a filament, they instead use an arc of excited plasma that bridges between two electrodes. It's a different type altogether.




An aspheric lens will work with some incandescent bulbs, but the beam quality usually is fairly poor even with the best combinations. Just as the aspheric focuses an image of the LED die, it will also focus and image of the halogen filament. While the LED is flat and smooth, the filament is longer and often radiused in some way, so the lens will only be able to project a tiny portion of the filament in focus while most of it is left out of focus. Some people do it but I've always been left unimpressed with the results.





It's true that there is rarely the perfect or ideal match. We only have a choice of so many lenses and LEDs. That said, aspherics don't use any reflector. If a reflector is there is doesn't lower performance, but it doesn't help anything either. The ideal match is primarily determined by focal length so turning the mag head in or out focuses or de-focuses the emitter. I can't remember the focal length for the 52mm aspheric but I think it's somewhere around 35mm. It may be listed in the KD specs too.

As ever, many thanks again, Patriot......... I'm getting there!

Gunner pointed out my error about the Bear's bulb and of course, you're both right. I do know the difference but I had my head in an anatomically improbably place at that moment.

I didn't realize that lights using an aspheric lens didn't use a reflector. I know that bulbs that are physically big can't be as accurately focused by a reflector but that doesn't appear to be the case with a lens, so there's not much advantage to a small light source. I had been thinking of finding something with the 10 W HID bulb used in the Eznite but from what you're saying, I'd be just as well off with some nice bright LEDs, like the ones in Mac's Aspheric.

So now I guess the answer is that I need to get my claws on one of them. I noticed that he made his Mini HIDs in batches, is that equally true of the aspherics or might he (or some-one else have one in stock, do you think?

If that should be my goal, I can stop pestering you and try pestering him, instead!

PS, how do you think the Xenide 25W would compare with a Wolf-eyes Boxer 24 W? I've got one of them and I don't think it's any better than the Eznite on RCR 123s.

 

[Patriot]

As ever, many thanks again, Patriot......... I'm getting there!

Gunner pointed out my error about the Bear's bulb and of course, you're both right. I do know the difference but I had my head in an anatomically improbably place at that moment.

Yeah no problem. I think Gunner just typed more quickly than I.

I had been thinking of finding something with the 10 W HID bulb used in the Eznite but from what you're saying, I'd be just as well off with some nice bright LEDs, like the ones in Mac's Aspheric.

Well, not really. The HID lights with good reflectors will throw even farther than a 52mm aspheric and Q5 LED. The EZnite will produce more throw than the aspheric also. I've photographed them together before.

So now I guess the answer is that I need to get my claws on one of them. I noticed that he made his Mini HIDs in batches, is that equally true of the aspherics or might he (or some-one else have one in stock, do you think?

Probably the easiest thing to do is assembly these following parts, non of which will require any special knowledge or skill.

3C mag
The aspheric lens and drop-in led which gunner linked earlier

That is the easiest and most cost effective way to get yourself into and aspheric mag. It doesn't cost you much and all of your changes are reversible or transferable. The other way is to wait for one to come up for sale in the customs and modified forum or wait to see if Mac makes more of them.

PS, how do you think the Xenide 25W would compare with a Wolf-eyes Boxer 24 W? I've got one of them and I don't think it's any better than the Eznite on RCR 123s.

The Xenide lights throw substantially farther than the Boxer/Microfire because of the smooth reflector surface and also the shape. The Xenide25 will throw roughly 30-40% farther than the EZnite....which I consider to be a large difference.


P.S. You're never pestering..so don't worry about that. :thumbsup:

 

[artec540]

Yeah no problem. I think Gunner just typed more quickly than I.





Well, not really. The HID lights with good reflectors will throw even farther than a 52mm aspheric and Q5 LED. The EZnite will produce more throw than the aspheric also. I've photographed them together before.



Probably the easiest thing to do is assembly these following parts, non of which will require any special knowledge or skill.

3C mag
The aspheric lens and drop-in led which gunner linked earlier

That is the easiest and most cost effective way to get yourself into and aspheric mag. It doesn't cost you much and all of your changes are reversible or transferable. The other way is to wait for one to come up for sale in the customs and modified forum or wait to see if Mac makes more of them.




The Xenide lights throw substantially farther than the Boxer/Microfire because of the smooth reflector surface and also the shape. The Xenide25 will throw roughly 30-40% farther than the EZnite....which I consider to be a large difference.


P.S. You're never pestering..so don't worry about that. :thumbsup:

Thanks again!

I've ordered the lens and the drop-in (I hope it really does drop in!) and I'm about to find and order the 3C Mag.

How do you think the Dereelight DBS would compare with the Xenide?

I have a real admiration and liking for the Eznite (except for its lamentable name). It's such a nice size, so nicely made and it really works so well. What's not to like except maybe te price, but even then, I think it's pretty good value all things considered.

 

[artec540]

Thanks again!

I've ordered the lens and the drop-in (I hope it really does drop in!) and I'm about to find and order the 3C Mag.

How do you think the Dereelight DBS would compare with the Xenide?

I have a real admiration and liking for the Eznite (except for its lamentable name). It's such a nice size, so nicely made and it really works so well. What's not to like except maybe te price, but even then, I think it's pretty good value all things considered.

Now I'm having qualms. I ordered the 3C Mag, the drop=in and the apheric lens. On reading the details of the drop in, it said it was designed for two or three D-cells....... did I goof? If I did, are there other batteries, preferably rechargeable, that will work?