Too many battery types?

[kristiancyclist]

I'm a bit new here so please forgive me for my initial naive perspective.

I've been looking at flashlight, and lighting systems in general, with a bit more interest as I work on my home brew lighting solution for my bike. Is it just me or are there way too many battery types out there? Maybe I am just too used to the AAA, AA, C, and D types. Why do we have 18650 and CR123 types? Not being a "flashaholic", I was a bit turned off from some units because I didn't want to maintain a second type of battery. It's either another package of disposables or another charger with rechargeables.

I understand that there is a need for something smaller that packs more punch. That allows manufacturers to make a smaller and more compact housing - for flashlights, electronics, and everything else.

Still, couldn't there be a creative way to make new battery sizes in such a way as to make them "upward compatible" so to speak with adapters and the like? Have like a 1/2 sized C that can be made into a full size with a special conducting extension plug?

For now I am sticking with the easier to get alphabet based battery sizes. Maybe as I get deeper into lighting then I will be more keen to explore other battery type based lights.

Anyone else go through this frustration at some point?

-- Boris

 

[Mr Happy]

There are battery sizes and battery chemistries.

Two batteries can come in the same size but have different chemistry, or can come in different sizes but have the same chemistry.

When batteries have different chemistry it means they have different operating voltages, different capacities, and different charge/discharge characteristics requiring different chargers.

If you wish to keep things safe and reliable, and have batteries that can all be charged with the same charger, then you should concentrate on rechargeable batteries of the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) chemistry, especially the newer low self-discharge varieties like Eneloops.

You can go a long way by sticking just to the AA size NiMH and using adapters where larger sizes are needed.

 

[mrk442]

There are battery sizes and battery chemistries.

Two batteries can come in the same size but have different chemistry, or can come in different sizes but have the same chemistry.

When batteries have different chemistry it means they have different operating voltages, different capacities, and different charge/discharge characteristics requiring different chargers.

If you wish to keep things safe and reliable, and have batteries that can all be charged with the same charger, then you should concentrate on rechargeable batteries of the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) chemistry, especially the newer low self-discharge varieties like Eneloops.

You can go a long way by sticking just to the AA size NiMH and using adapters where larger sizes are needed.

I really like the new LSD Cells i have some of the Duracell white tops and they are great! I run them in a 6 cell pack in series to power a 5 cell magstar xenon bulb and it would light up the same tree's right till the end of the charge then it went from bright and white to yellow and dim in literally a second. there was nothing gradual about it one moment it was bright and looked like full power and the next poof dim... they seem to have a very nice flat discharge curve i can't wait to see what it is like on higher draw applications.

plus in a pinch you can always find a AA battery for your light as its the most common battery on the planet if i am no mistaken.

 

[kristiancyclist]

But does a different chemistry require a different physical packaging? Can't you fit the same compounds that are in CR123 inside a AA? Ok, you may not get the same quantity but that should affect the chemistry. Or should it?

-- Boris

 

[Mr Happy]

Yes, you can fit CR123 chemistry inside an AA size cell, but the industry generally doesn't do that because it would cause problems for most consumers. They would think that "if the battery fits, it must be OK to use," whereas that is not true and they would damage their device due to the wrong voltage.

Therefore a standard industrial design practice is to make sure that things that are not meant to go together are different sizes or shapes so that they can't be put together accidentally.

That's why you can't plug your computer monitor cable into any socket other than the one designed for it, and the same with the power cable, the keyboard cable, and so on.

 

[mrk442]

But does a different chemistry require a different physical packaging? Can't you fit the same compounds that are in CR123 inside a AA? Ok, you may not get the same quantity but that should affect the chemistry. Or should it?

-- Boris

Exactly as he stated above ^^^

there is its called a a AA size Li-ion its a 14500

there is an AAA, C, and D sized cells also


the problem is that they have a different chemistry so they operate at different voltages and need different chargers..

if you put a 14500 4.2v battery into a AA 1.5/1.2V Device bad things can happen so to prevent mix ups or mistakes by those that are less informed it seems logical to use a other then standard 1.5/1.2 size for a battery with a different size\charging requirments and applications

 

[kristiancyclist]

So the physical dimensions of the battery tube itself are indicative of the voltage. But why do we need so many different voltages then?

Why not keep devices at 1.5V and just pack more current handling capability to get the same Watts? Why do we need 3V, and 3.7V, and 4.5V? What's the difference if I have 1.5V at 1000mA or 3V at 500mA? Isn't it the still amount of power available? Isn't a battery just a tube of Watts?

Not enough power from a AAA? Go up to a AA. Still not enough? Then there's C. Need more? Go for D.

What am I missing?

- Boris

 

[Mr Happy]

What am I missing?

Reality? :duh2:

But seriously there is weight, and volume, and power output, and how long it will hold a charge, and cost to manufacture, and safety in use, and environmental considerations, and complexity of required chargers, and etc...

With all things involving engineering, there does not exist complete freedom to make anything you wish with any capability you wish. There are always practical limits given to us by the universe and we have to work within those limits. Sometimes someone will have a clever idea and we can extend the limits a bit in a certain direction, but that usually does not happen without a lot of effort.

A battery is not 1.5 volts or 1.2 volts or 3 volts because someone chose those numbers. Batteries have the voltage they have because the universe dictated what those numbers would be.

A battery is not just a tube of watts. It is far more complex than that.

 

[drmaxx]

So the physical dimensions of the battery tube itself are indicative of the voltage. But why do we need so many different voltages then?

Why not keep devices at 1.5V and just pack more current handling capability to get the same Watts? Why do we need 3V, and 3.7V, and 4.5V? What's the difference if I have 1.5V at 1000mA or 3V at 500mA? Isn't it the still amount of power available? Isn't a battery just a tube of Watts?

Not enough power from a AAA? Go up to a AA. Still not enough? Then there's C. Need more? Go for D.

First it makes a difference if you draw 1000 mA at 1.5V or 500 mA at 3V. It's like comparing a two lane street with a four lane highway. Both deliver traffic.

Secondly, battery producers are not free to choose voltage. It is determined by the chemistry. There is range of different chemistries out there to make a battery, all of them with different strength and weaknesses, and generally with different voltages.

Thats just how life is - enjoy the variety!

 

[cerbie]

So the physical dimensions of the battery tube itself are indicative of the voltage. But why do we need so many different voltages then?

We don't. We need different performance characteristics, including cost. Each chemistry works differently, and we can only tune them so much. Each cell also has its advantages and disadvantages (with most chemistries, physically larger cells handle higher current draw better, FI).

Why not keep devices at 1.5V and just pack more current handling capability to get the same Watts? Why do we need 3V, and 3.7V, and 4.5V? What's the difference if I have 1.5V at 1000mA or 3V at 500mA? Isn't it the still amount of power available? Isn't a battery just a tube of Watts?

Not enough power from a AAA? Go up to a AA. Still not enough? Then there's C. Need more? Go for D.

What am I missing?

- Boris

Ideally, that would be true, that Wh(cell A) = Wh(cell B). It's not.

AA alkaline performs very poorly under any heavy load. It will start getting slammed by 500mA (poor total Wh delivered, voltage lowers a lot). A NIMH can take 10 times that in stride. So you need different chemistry for different jobs. Most of the time, though, NIMH, Alkaline, CZ, and 1.7V Lithium are all compatible, because the voltages are close enough.

Many electronic gizmos pull current, straight out, or vary their pull by voltage (such at LEDs). Well, you gotta make it cheap. So you don't do the overbuilding that would give universal compatibility. Result? Giving it 3+ volts fries it. It could very well pull <20mA at 1.5V resting, but pull whole amps at 4V. If they pull a certain current, the wattage is correlated 1:1 from voltage. Many pieces of electronics are limited by amps flowing through them, too. Amperes are directly a measurement of how many electrons are moving around the circuit in a unit of time. You can only move so many through a given amount of conductive material. The higher the voltage, the less amperage is needed for a certain wattage, easing the load.

Then, if you are doing regulation, and have wide voltage support, you have other issues to worry about. First, only a certain range will be very efficient. Usually, it is the closer to the voltage being regulated to (3V to 3.5V is going to be less stressful than 1V to 3.5V). Then, what happens when one battery gets overly-drained, when you support so many? Some will leak, some will gas in bad ways, while others will just go out harmlessly. What happens when the battery sits for a few years?

It only goes on from there. Also, the current state of NIMH rechargeables, Lithium-Ions, and Lithium 1.7V primaries, are all very new things. Ten years ago, if you wanted to avoid alkaline leaks, but needed to pull some current, your option was to go with a traditionally Lithium cell. NIMH was acceptable, but not for everything. NiCd was known to be bad in many ways, but was just too useful (now its only advantage is that it's cheap). There's more, I'm sure. But, these traditions gave us a lot of cell choices.

Now, we have Lithiums compatible with Alkalines, and very safe NIMH that can retain charge, be charged often, and take very high currents. Of course these NIMHs are heavy...ugh. Back to Lithium-based, which are lighter.

It's complicated. Chemistry is not our friend, here. I mean, the field of study is, but nature's side of it isn't.

Finally, you're hardly alone in avoiding devices with user-replaceable standard sized battery cells due to keeping up with an extra type. It has taken me about three years to finally give in and decide to support (R)CR123 for my own stuff.

 

[WDG]

Anyone else go through this frustration at some point?

Not at all. I consider it a luxury to have the "embarrassment of choices" available that we have, today. I chose to standardize on AA NiMh Eneloops, with a smattering of AAA Eneloops where necessary, but my choice won't meet everyone else's needs or wants. Does that detract from the choice that works for me? Not at all.

I spent a lot of 'search time' on CPF to make my choice, and I'd recommend the same for anyone else new to this.

 

[Black Rose]

Anyone else go through this frustration at some point?

Not really. I have a couple of D cell lights kicking around, but have standardized on AA and AAA lights for the most part.

I like the other kinds of lights that are available but choose to stick with AA and AAA based lights since I have a ton of AA & AAA LSD rechargeables.

I do have two lights that take CR123 cells, but that's it. I may eventually get more into CR123 lights and get CR123 rechargeables, but that is probably as far as I'll go.

 

[etc]

There are too many battery types.

You can safely get rid of AAA Alkaline, anything it does AA can do better with no disadvantages.

Allso CR2 Lithium is useless, anything it does 123 can do better. Redundancy.

That's just a start.

They are there for compatibility reasons. It's more expensive to change than to keep using the same thing. I've never seen a device that needed AAA vs. AA or CR2 vs CR123A.

18650 is a good thing, Li-Ion cell, the same thing that powers your laptop - (a set of them)

 

[WDG]

I've never seen a device that needed AAA vs. AA

I'm assuming you're talking lights, here. I have a few electronic devices that happen to take AAA, and I didn't find anything equivalent in AA, so that's the main reason I keep a few AAA cells around.

OTOH, I also have a couple TerraLUX converted AAA MiniMag lights that I'd rather use than toss. In this case, you're right... they have no useful (at least to me) advantage over the AA versions.

 

[Chodes]

Too many battery types? As a member of CPF , I assume you have an interest in lights. The more battery types , both chemistry and physical size , the more possibilities for building different lights.

Or am I the one who is missing something?

 

[n3eg]

Yes, you can fit CR123 chemistry inside an AA size cell, but the industry generally doesn't do that because it would cause problems for most consumers. They would think that "if the battery fits, it must be OK to use," whereas that is not true and they would damage their device due to the wrong voltage.

Therefore a standard industrial design practice is to make sure that things that are not meant to go together are different sizes or shapes so that they can't be put together accidentally.

That's why you can't plug your computer monitor cable into any socket other than the one designed for it, and the same with the power cable, the keyboard cable, and so on.

Now if they'd just do that with coaxial DC plugs...

My wife has blown up a few things that way.

Actually, they're not always DC plugs either...don't get me started!

While we're talking battery sizes, which size Li-Ion rechargeable goes into the $5 9-LED lights to replace the 3-AAA holder?

 

[Mr Happy]

Now if they'd just do that with coaxial DC plugs...

Yes, it would be nice if DC plugs and sockets were color coded, wouldn't it? E.g.
red for 3 V
yellow for 4.5 V
green for 6 V
blue for 9 V
white for 12 V

I don't have any to hand, but I think the Li-ion that would replace 3 AAA cells would be something like a C size, or 26500.

 

[mdocod]

Try not to think of AA and C and D cells as anything that is more normal or more standardized than a 18650, because they are not. The lettered naming conventions for consumer cells are actually a very poor way to label the cells as it just adds more confusion to the industry, especially for any curious humanoid who digs a little deeper than just buying some rayovacs for his TV remote so he can watch professional sporting events on an electronic device that he will never understand or care to.

Here's a fun little list that will help things make more sense.

(sizes vary from brand to brand, actual measurements can vary, naming/sizing conventions vary in the industry, good luck).

10230: 1/2AAA
10290: 2/3AAA
10440: AAA
10500: 5/4AAA
14170: 1/3AA
14250: 1/2AA
15270: CR2
17280: 2/3A
16340: CR123, RCR123, R123 etc
17340: CR123, RCR123, R123 etc
14290: 2/3AA
14410: 4/5AA
14500: AA
14670: 4/3AA
17420: 4/5A
17500: A
18500: AF
17670: 4/3A
18650: 4/3AF
23340: 4/5 Sub-C
23430: Sub-C
26500: C
26670: 4/3C
26700: 4/3C
32350: 1/2D
32600: D
32900: F

This isn't all of them, I' sure there are more sizes out there, more fractions, more confusion....

does the list on the left or the list the right make more sense? Which one is more useful for defining the size of the cell without the need to refer to a chart like the one I have made above?

Before answering that question: remember that the "numbered" naming convention breaks down as follows:
mm x mm then 0=cylindrical, or a 3rd dimension giving for prismatic cells.

A CR123 is 16mm by 34mm cylindrical, or 16340.

So would you rather just be told how big the cell is and what shape it is in it's name? or be given some obscure letter that requires a charge like the one above to truly identify?

----------------------------

Many of the cell sizes above are available in a half dozen or more chemistry types. Try not to confuse a battery with a simple place to store electrons. It's not like a tank of gas that you empty and fill, it's more like a tank of one chemical, that you convert to another chemical with electricity, then convert it back when draining off the electrons. By thinking of a battery with this concept in mind, you can more easily make direct correlation to the fact that each cell chemistry used is bound by laws of the universe. The voltage and capacity is the result of the industry looking for a particular combination that resulted in something useful at a reasonable price point and safety level. then devices were built around whatever they could come up with. They designed the Lithium Cobalt battery before they designed a laptop that could use it, they didn't design a laptop, and then tell the "battery dudes in the basement" to come up with something that met some certain requirement.

Eric

 

[kristiancyclist]

Wow... I have truly underestimated the world of batteries. I stand just as bewildered as before but certainly a lot more humble than yesterday. As a simple consumer, I always looked at batteries as almost a nuisance. "Why so many? Why don't they last longer? Why 1.2V and not 1.5V?" Yadda yadda yadda...

Maybe I really do need to experience the different battery types to understand their worth. Still probably won't ease the frustration of a battery in my digital camera dying as I'm about to make that special shot...

*cli...*
"What?! Now? Of all times??"

-- Boris

 

[lctorana]

...which size Li-Ion rechargeable goes into the $5 9-LED lights to replace the 3-AAA holder?

18500.

If it's too loose, take the lid from a can of Deoxit, mount a nut-and-bolt in the centre of the end, and pop that in first.