Toy batteries.

[maddognkc]

Ok, I am new here and new to the rechargeable battery scene. I have been doing some reading and have order some eneloop's for my flashlights, gps and other electronics.

However our biggest demand for batteries is for my sons toy trains. Most take a single AA. He has about 15 of them. If I understand my reading, it is damaging to overdischarge eneloops. And although we try to watch it, sometimes a train will get left on and drain a battery to nothing.

I am looking for advice on what the best option might be. I am thinking some bulk cheap NiMH. I also assume I am going to have to upgrade from the eneloop charger as the batteries will all be a different charge states and charging in pairs could cause problems.

Please share your wisdom.

 

[TakeTheActive]

Ok, I am new here...

:welcome:

...And although we try to watch it, sometimes a train will get left on and drain a battery to nothing.

I am looking for advice on what the best option might be. I am thinking some bulk cheap NiMH...

NiCD can take discharging to 0VDC better than NiMH.

BU: What's the best battery?

FAQ: Chapter 8: Choosing the Right Battery​

...I also assume I am going to have to upgrade from the eneloop charger as the batteries will all be a different charge states and charging in pairs could cause problems...

How much do you plan to spend?

TTA's NiMH/NiCD Battery Charger Specifications Thread​

 

[bob_ninja]

If you have old weak rechargeable cells then use those. If you loose them or kill them it is not a big loss. Otherwise cheap non-rechargeables.

 

[glockboy]

I use to used cheap rechargeable AAs and AAAs for my boy toys, it keep on dying, so I now I used Duraloop and Eneloop, the toys keep on running great.
If it die, just jump start and it will be great again.

 

[45/70]

Welcome to CPF maddognkc! :thumbsup:

Yes, particularly in applications using single cells, NiCd's work out very well. They are much better in situations where the cell is subjected to various kinds of abuse, such as being discharged to low levels, than NiMH cells.

The problem with NiCd cells, is finding good ones. They have largely been replaced by NiMH cells in recent years. The marketing folks just can't resist the mAh rating of NiMH vs. NiCd cells. In a lot of rechargeable tool applications that now utilize NiMH packs, they don't advertise how all that extra capacity is of no use, if you kill the cells, which is easy to do with a NiMH cordless drill for example, an application where NiCd's hold up quite well.

A lot of the NiCd cells that can be found nowadays, do not hold up well under heavy loads, as the typical NiCd of yesteryear could. In the toy train application, they may work out OK though. If when used, the trains run for an hour, or longer, they'd probably be fine. Otherwise, something like the Sanyo KR1100 AA on this page from CheapBatteryPacks, which is not really a high discharge rate cell, but a quality NiCd cell nonetheless, would probably be preferable. In any event, the Sanyo's would likely last a lot longer (calender-wise, as well as capacity-wise) however they are used, than most other available NiCd cells.

If you do go the NiCd route, keep in mind that it is necessary to discharge NiCd cells to ~1.00 Volt at least once per month to keep them healthy. That doesn't sound like it'd be much of a problem though.

As for a charger, many thrift/second hand shops have NiCd chargers that show up on the shelves, as many people don't use them anymore. I picked up two Panasonic (actually one is an Eveready, but is the identical charger) for 25 cents each.

These chargers would be slow to charge 1100mAh cells, as their charge rate for AA cells is 50mA (1100/50=22hrs, +60%= ~35hrs), but would get the job done. Keep in mind that when charging discharged cells, charging in pairs is no problem, as the cells are in a similar state of charge. Also, NiCd cells are much more tolerant of trickle charging than NiMH cells, in the event that you forget about them being on the charger.

Of course, any modern NiMH charger will charge NiCd cells, as well. Some of the extra features provided on the higher end chargers, such as the "Refresh" and "Discharge" cycles on the Maha C9000 for example, can come in handy, but in your situation, you're not likely to really need them.

Dave

 

[Bones]

As glockboy has noted, the exceptional sturdiness of the Eneloop actually makes it the best overall choice for your son's toys as well. However, you are also correct in that repeated over-discharges will still lead to their early demise, it just won't be nearly as early as would probably be the case with other NiMH cells.

Accordingly, I would look to the Rayovac Hybrid as a less costly alternative for your son's toys. It's generally considered to be amongst the very best of the alternative low self-discharge cells, yet it routinely sells for considerably less.

The distinctly different appearance of the Hybrid would also help your son differentiate 'his' cells from the Eneloops, hopefully allowing you to better preserve their performance and longevity.

 

[csa]

I agree, NiCd is probably your best chemistry choice. If you don't like those options, just pick up cheap NiMHs and replace them as necessary.

 

[VidPro]

Most take a single AA. .

did you say single? i would use one of the LSD cells still. they will run flat, "ok", but if you said 2xAA or 3XAA ETC and a kid not stopping when the train slows, then i would say different (reverse charge).
and if you said AAA Series , which no AAA ni-Mhy is really robust, and dont handle reverse charge well.
but Single Piece of cake.

also a dose of "to Many" and easy access , instead of trying to squeeze out the last drop, can work for some kids and old people
Meaning if they know a charged cell is right there, and they can Immediatly GO again, instead of limp along trying to squeeze out the last drop they will just grab the charged one. But if access is distant and requires begging and being ignored and waiting, or finding the "dead pool" (Battery drawer) then people in general will keep trying to squeeze it till to the end.

if the stuff requires to much maintance to provide working charged cells, then what good is it. 2 week later a kid with 30% cells is neither safer nor happier, and with the parent having to constantally maintain, to keep them available, well that might not be fun either.

if parent handles charging, and provides access to available charged cells, would be better to have ones that work, so kid doesnt try something stupid Not that as a kid We ever would have seriesed a bunch of half dead cells because parents were to cheap , or anything noooo, would never do that .

talk about kids, when we were kids we BLEW UP ni-cads trying to charge them , the enloop has a safety releace valve, CHEAP ni-mhy (from china say) can have NO releace valves at ALL, i have sploded some of them as an adult even. i cant see any reason not to use a Enloop, sorry, i really aint a Sanyo brownoser , that is just the way it is.

with the disclaimer of safety with children and batteries (whatever that would be?) I guess it would still be Shorts, because a NI-?? vrses an alkaline can make a short situation much hotter. (turn a wire red hot)

in Series, i would rather have cells that match in capacity (a few weeks later) than cells that are at different capacites because they self discharged. Cells that End at the same time, cant cause reverse charge, that Never happens, but less offset is better when it comes to "reverse charge" situations.
But indeed a ni-Cd is most robust , and will cope with reverse much better.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Maddognkc,

I will echo a welcome to CPF.

I view using rechargable batteries as an educational experience. If you take a little time to educate your son, he can have a wonderful experience that will prepare him for his future use of batteries.

With that said, crap is crap. Sure you can get a crap cell to work in some cases, but each crap cell is a little different, and none of them will perform as expected.

Quality cells give repeatable performance and it is easy to quickly determine how long they will last. The voltage retention under load will let you operate the device within the normal operation parameters it is designed for. Quality cells also are better able to handle upset conditions, but you can still destroy them if things get out of hand.

Quality cells also behave better while charging.

If your son were to pick up one of his trains and throw it across the room, it would probably wear out (or break) quickly. I have found that children (and some, but not all, adults ) easily grasp the concept that batteries can also be abused by over discharge and just as you take care not to throw the train across the room, you also take care not to over discharge the battery.

I don't think it is fair to give a child crap cells for their toys. Pick the best performing cells and a charger that takes care of the cells and spend a little time educating and everyone has an enjoyable experience. Mistakes will still happen, but the consequences of mistakes can often be a powerful learning experience. I believe life involves making mistakes and learning from them. If you isolate against mistakes, you end up doing nothing. Roll with the mistakes, learn from them, and move on. It will teach your child invaluable lessons that they will take with them throughout their journey through life.

If you insist on using crap cells, use them yourself and don't impose the consequences of their use on others. That way there is the possibility that you may learn too...

NiMh chemistry is a better choice, unless the cells end up being totally abused. I would suggest that you start out with some quality NiMh cells. If they all die within the first month, then look at NiCd cells. The current batch of NiMh cells will hold voltage better than NiCd cells under load, and will run longer in the application. It is also easier to find quality NiMh cells.

The qualifier to the previous statement is heat. Heat destroys NiMh cells. If your son's trains operate at a dead short or near a dead short like power tools do, NiCd will be a better choice. Take the train out for a run and pull the battery immediately afterward. If it is too hot to hold you your hand, go NiCd.

Tom

 

[45/70]

NiMh chemistry is a better choice, unless the cells end up being totally abused. I would suggest that you start out with some quality NiMh cells. If they all die within the first month, then look at NiCd cells. The current batch of NiMh cells will hold voltage better than NiCd cells under load, and will run longer in the application. It is also easier to find quality NiMh cells.

With the choices that are available today, I won't argue with that. I still think however, that with 15 trains, the cells are going to get run down to zero ("totally abused") quite a bit, as maddognkc mentioned does happen , and taking that into consideration, I think NiCd cells would be a better solution. If nothing else, they would be a lot more forgiving during the learning experience, than NiMH cells.

Actually, the use of both NiMH and NiCd may further enhance the learning experience. If the cells were to be used in single cell applications only, and I realize that may not be the case, but it may be interesting to the "Engineer" when he goes to college and may find that his NiCd cells still work, but the NiMH's are only a faint memory.

Yeah, I know, I'm still a NiCd fan. "In with the new and out with the old" and all that, but I "grew up" with NiCd's, and I think this particular application is one of the few where NiCd's still reign supreme.

Dave

 

[maddognkc]

Hey thanks for all the great info everyone. My son is only 3 and the trains and batteries do get abused. Right now we are using bulk alkaline packs from costco. Usually when a train runs down he goes and gets a new battery for us to put in for him. Though I do see in the next month or so he will be replacing them himself. These are toys, not models so he plays with them hard. It sounds like NiCD my be the way to go. As I understand it they handle over-discharge better, but they will run down faster. So as long as I buy enough of them and keep some charge and ready I should be ok.

Otherwise, something like the Sanyo KR1100 AA on this page from CheapBatteryPacks, which is not really a high discharge rate cell, but a quality NiCd cell nonetheless, would probably be preferable.

Those seem pricey. They are more than the rayovac hybrids. Price is not really a big factor but 'bang for the buck' is.

You all have given me a lot to think on. Though the camp seems as split as I am. I guess I can buy a pack of NiCD's and a pack of rayovac hybrids and try them just see how it goes.

Thanks,
Maddog

 

[jk037]

As a kid in the 1990's I used to chew through oodles of AA's and C's with the little electric motors that formed part of my Lego and Meccano sets(which are likely responsible for my career choice of engineering, and my general obsession with taking cars/bikes/appliances to bits ).

To keep my toys powered (and to keep me from raiding the stash of Duracells he kept for cameras, remotes, walkmans etc) my dad bought several sets of NiCd's in AA and C size, and a "fast" charger that took something like 16 hours to charger four AA's and 22 to charge four C's!

These NiCd cells suffered years of merciless deep-discharge cycling - only charge or swap 'em when the motor slows down! - and also long periods of being left in a fully discharged state. And yet they soldiered on in regular use for the best part of a decade. Their capacity and self-discharge got worse, of course, but I still have some of them somewhere and as far as I can remember, when I tried some of them a year ago most would take enough charge to run a small incan flashlight for half an hour or so.

One important lesson that I learned early on was that the NiCd cells were not to be shorted! This was discovered when I built something out of Meccano, and only noticed that I'd made a short circuit when I touched one of the metal parts that happened to form the current path... ouch! Then spotted the semi-melted wires, and quickly pulled the hot batteries out and - wait for it - threw them in the freezer!

Not that a 12-year-old me realised at the time, but I learned quite a lot about rechargeable cells from all this. When I got a little older and bought some newer, higher-capacity NiCd's to power my Discman, I knew enough to look after them much better. No more running 'till they were truly dead, and no more leaving a drained cell to sit for a week or two before charging.

Of course, batteries have come on a long way since then, and I wonder if a cheaper equivalent to an Eneloop would be sensible. I personally use GP ReCyko LSD NiMh cells in all my lights; they're about half the price of genuine Sanyo Eneloops and I've been impressed with their performance so far.

 

[45/70]

Those seem pricey. They are more than the rayovac hybrids. Price is not really a big factor but 'bang for the buck' is.

Well, if you find out that LSD cells are being destroyed, you'll have to weigh how many times you have to replace them vs. NiCds, which likely will not need to be replaced at all. If the LSD's work out, then yes, NiCds wouldn't be a good solution.

LSD cells do seem to be more durable than regular NiMH cells. I think the jury is still out as to how many times they can be discharged to zero Volts and still be useable though. Such treatment will kill a regular NiMH cell in short order. As I said, NiCds can be treated this way pretty much all the time.

Dave

 

[maddognkc]

Hey I just wanted to thank everyone for the welcome, and all the great info. I we given a box of 48 new NiCd's from a coworker (with the potential for about 7 more boxes). So I can now test both those and a couple eneloops to see how they hold up. Now on to charger shopping.

Thanks again.

 

[45/70]

I we given a box of 48 new NiCd's from a coworker (with the potential for about 7 more boxes).

Hummm. Can't beat the price!

Hopefully the cells haven't been sitting around for too long. NiCd's in such condition can be really hard to revive. A charger with a "refresh" or "cycle" mode, like the C9000 is great for doing just that. Sounds like you've got something to try out though. Good catch!

Dave

 

[was.lost.but.now.found]

Sorry, late to the game on this one.

The important question that I do not believe has yet been posed is what type of drain is there on the train toys? Are we talking about high, med, or low drain? Are you chewing through tons of alkalines because they trains actually drain the batteries after a few hours (or less) of normal use, or because they get left on overnight?

If the trains are (subjective I know) low to med drain, and drain batteries by being left on more often than by just running out through normal use, I'd have to recommend sticking with alkaline. I'll get stoned for saying this, but I strongly feel that alkalines still hold their place with low and moderate drain applications. Common examples are many children's toys that only need batteries for a small speaker and/or flashing lights, backup battery on alarm clocks, wall clocks, TV remotes, etc. It's entirely plausible that you're going to find yourself changing/recharging those Ni-Cads more often than you would replace an alkaline.

I definitely would like to hear your experiences though. Good luck!