Turn Signals; Amber Lens vs. Amber Bulb and Current, Amber-Bulb (PY21W) Options

[jeffsf]

I am considering "upgrading" my 2006 Mini Cooper R53 (US-spec) to European tail lights to get an amber turn indicator. While I can seemingly get the lenses with a clear indicator at a reasonable price from a reputable vendor, the ones with the amber lens seem challenging (BMW/Mini 63-21-7-166-955/-956 I believe, Valeo 044431 / 044432). Apparently, the clear ("white") lenses seem to be preferred for aesthetic reasons by many. Years ago, Daniel Stern suggested that I purchase an amber-lens version, if possible, over the clear-lens version.

Now, many years later, and cognizant of the issues with amber-painted bulbs in the US, I am wondering if there is a "technical" reason why the amber lenses would still be preferred. Checking the ECE requirements for P21W and PY21W, the difference in luminosity (460 lm vs. 280 lm) seems roughly comparable to the ~50% transmittance of an amber filter of 1979 era.


If I can't find the amber-lensed lamps, then I need an amber bulb.


I found a couple older threads discussing PY21W variants and options


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...56-7506-bulb&p=3874600&viewfull=1#post3874600 (2012)


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...l-lamp-bulbs&p=4826720&viewfull=1#post4826720 (2016)


mentioning the Philips SilverVision, Osram Diadem, and the Philips X-tremeUltinon gen2 Amber LED PY21W. All are presently available at Powerbulbs; $20.54, $16.43, $68.49, prior to discount codes.

Are these still the "bet bets" for a PY21W-compatible bulb for turn-signal use?



If so, is there a strong preference between the Philips-branded and Osram-branded incandescents? The public spec sheets don't show any meaningful differences (though the "raw" luminosity of the above-mentioned LED bulb is a disappointing 180 lm).

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Years ago, Daniel Stern suggested that I purchase an amber-lens version, if possible, over the clear-lens version.
Now, many years later, and cognizant of the issues with amber-painted bulbs in the US, I am wondering if there is a "technical" reason why the amber lenses would still be preferred.

Absolutely clear-lensed signals with colored bulbs can be more prone to phantom signals (they look on when off, depending on light striking them) and can for the same 'phantom signal' reason, it may not be as easy to notice that they are being used. These 'white' lenses may not be as prone to that. Still, you could use paint to make them amber.

 

[-Virgil-]

I am considering "upgrading" my 2006 Mini Cooper R53 (US-spec) to European tail lights to get an amber turn indicator.

That would be an upgrade...even without the air quotes!

the ones with the amber lens seem challenging (BMW/Mini 63-21-7-166-955/-956 I believe, Valeo 044431 / 044432).

Valeo is listing them as a currently available part, not discontinued or anything. If you can't find them with an online search, maybe check with Stern or another specialist.

Years ago, Daniel Stern suggested that I purchase an amber-lens version, if possible, over the clear-lens version.

That's still good advice, for two reasons: you can easily increase the turn signal intensity that way, and whether you do or don't, sunlight causes less interference with the turn signals if the lens is amber than if it's clear.

Now, many years later, and cognizant of the issues with amber-painted bulbs in the US

Issues with amber-coated bulbs are not local to the US.

Checking the ECE requirements for P21W and PY21W, the difference in luminosity (460 lm vs. 280 lm)

That's a leftover from years ago when the ECE amber color coordinates were more restricted than the SAE coordinates. Consider an 1156 (32cp) versus an 1156A or 1156NA (24cp) and you're looking at factor of 0.75. Just FYI.

Now, aside from the reduced sun interference, why would you want to use the amber lens? Because then you can drop in a 3497 bulb (677 lumens at 13.5v) for a 47% increase in intensity over a P21W (460 lumens at 13.5v). Why would you want to do that? Because the ECE rear turn signal central intensity range is 50 to 350 candela, whereas the US range is 130 to 750 candela. With the higher-output bulb, the ECE rear turn signal will emit somewhere between 74 and 515 candela, more in line with the generally higher intensity of vehicle rear lights on US roads. This same reasoning applies to the brake lights, too, though the numerical ranges would be different.

Philips X-tremeUltinon gen2 Amber LED PY21W

Not a good choice.

(though the "raw" luminosity of the above-mentioned LED bulb is a disappointing 180 lm).

That's one of several reasons why it's not a good choice.

 

[jeffsf]

Thanks, yes, I can find the Valeo, amber-lensed parts through a seemingly reputable, UK-based eBay seller at a quite a bit higher, but not exorbitant price (US$227, delivered). Avoids being tail-ended or t-boned once and the price becomes trivial.

I'll definitely look into the 3497 (and possibly the 3496). Any meaningful advantages/disadvantages to the "LONGLIFE" variants that are marketed under the Sylvania name in the US (almost to the exclusion of the "basic" variants)?

If my notes are correct:

3496 Basic / LL -- Sylvania 37553 / 32597
3497 Basic / LL -- Sylvania 37555 / 37559

Thanks for the opinions and pointers.

Edit: I got excited when a trip to the bulb drawer revealed STANLEY 12V23/8W JAPAN KK — 9 K2 on a bulb. Then I noticed 1034 ahead of that....

 

[-Virgil-]

The only 3496s and 3497s worth buying are the ones made by Stanley, which are sold only through the Honda parts system.

3496, 3497. All others are junk not worth the paper their price tag is printed on.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Thanks, yes, I can find the Valeo, amber-lensed parts through a seemingly reputable, UK-based eBay seller at a quite a bit higher, but not exorbitant price (US$227, delivered).

Have you checked with Daniel Stern? Although with him you'd have to pay shipping, but maybe he can get them cheaper or very competitively and absolutely certainly *genuine*. Besides, does your 'delivered' include any potential customs charges?

 

[jeffsf]

I'm still waiting to hear back from Daniel Stern on DRL modules and to order some of the newly minted "Osram Rallye" H7s. I would have pursued that path if I wasn't already waiting for a response from my earlier email.

The vendor I selected uses the eBay Global Shipping Program, which indicates that the shipping and import charges are handled at checkout, with "No additional charges or surprises on delivery".

While they are available through ECS/Turner/Pelican at a comparable price, I've had terrible issues with them, with generic parts being delivered when a recognized, premium-priced name brand was ordered (multiple times on the same item, despite promises to confirm before shipment), then failing to properly refund. Given that they are quoting delivery at the end of May, I have less than no confidence in them.

There was a "BMW specialist" parts house in Denmark that offers them at a lower price than I paid, but there were some comments on a BMW board that gave me enough concerns to consider a different vendor.

I'll probably pick up the Stanley bulbs direct from a Honda dealer, as the typical mail-order discounts on four bulbs get quickly eroded by shipping charges.

For the front, clear-lensed turn signals, I haven't found any 1156NA ("dyed") save for the Philips 1156NA and 1156NALL (unconfirmed if truly dyed). The reset seem to be 1156A ("painted") from "the usual suspects"; Wagner, GE, Hella, Philips, Sylvania, Bosch. Wagner and, I assume, GE, are still to be avoided. The Bosch showing "CN" dot-printed in the Amazon (US) illustration doesn't give me a lot of confidence. Do any of these stand out in a positive way?

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm still waiting to hear back from Daniel Stern

So was I, til this morning. Past results don't guarantee future results, but maybe it's your turn soon

For the front, clear-lensed turn signals, I haven't found any 1156NA ("dyed") save for the Philips 1156NA and 1156NALL (unconfirmed if truly dyed). The reset seem to be 1156A ("painted")

There is no "NA=dyed, A=painted" convention. At various times and from various manufacturers, the A and NA designations have had a variety of meanings. Sometimes they mean the exact same thing, and sometimes they mean various different things, with no consistency.

You could just paint the lenses (link in post #2 of this thread) and then use 3497...

 

[jeffsf]

Daniel Stern is catching up and stated that he's "Already got exclusive availability of (excellent) amber versions of 2886X and 3886X, those being the Osram 6w 85-lumen replacements for W5W/W3W/194/168/etc and T4W/1893/1895/53/57/etc, respectively. Clear-lens turn signal repeaters bright enough to be seen in daylight, hoorah!"

He states that an amber 3497 is in the works, but that it may be a long time out in the future.

Based on that, I've ordered some Phillips 1156NA. At $0.67 each (RockAuto), I can swap them out regularly. RockAuto also has an ACDelco 1156NA at $4.37 each, that I know nothing about past a note in another thread around the 5702KA.

---

Paint or gel isn't an option I'm ready to explore yet, as the line before "Remove the three screws retaining the lamp housing" in the Bentley manual is prefaced by "Remove the bumper cover" and a three-page description of how to do that. Past that, it's a dual-bulb assembly that I'd imagine to be reasonably inaccessible without cutting it apart.

Though gel isn't at the top of my list, I've looked at what and took a look at what Rosco offers. I also noted that there was another thread looking for "amber tape". They've been in the theatrical-lighting gel business for decades and offer Roscolux and Supergel, designed for use in front of high-wattage theatrical and film lighting. In the colors of interest, I believe they are body-dyed polycarbonate. I don't know about longevity.

ECE/SAE Amber seems well matched with #20 Medium Amber when used with a tungsten source. I don't know the conversion between CIE 1964 and CIE 1931, but (0.573, 0.414) seems to fall within the ECE definition and, from what I have access to, the SAE definition as well. 54% transmission. 3 mil thick polycarbonate, Roscolux is available in 20" x 24" sheets in the US for around $7 a sheet or less. Supergel, from what I understand, should be readily available in both the US and in Europe. It run about $14 a sheet in the US. Roscolux in a given color may be surface dyed or body dyed (I'm purely guessing that the less-saturated colors tend to be surface-dyed and the highly saturated colors are body-dyed). Superlux is stated to be body dyed.

https://www.rosco.com/spectrum/index.php/tag/whats-the-difference-between-supergel-and-roscolux/

ECE Selective Yellow is roughly, but not compliantly matched by #96 Lime (too much blue/violet transmission, resulting in a disqualifying desaturation)

For those looking for a "blue-free" filter, Wratten filters were long the go-to, but photographic-quality filters of any make are very expensive (52 mm Tiffen filters, a decent, less-expensive brand, running $20-30). Rosco #19 Fire comes very close to a full block below 580 nm and 20% transmission. (Note, I have not checked this against ECE or SAE Red.) Thanks to https://publiclab.org/notes/mathew/04-29-2014/a-wratten-25a-replacement-from-rosco for the pointer on this.

I haven't considered how one might adhere the material in a non-destructive way and, again, I don't know its longevity

---

Also note the suggestion for a UV filter in addition to the gel for sources with high UV output (fluorescents mentioned, in particular).
From https://www.rosco.com/spectrum/index.php/2018/04/what-makes-supergel-super/


#2: Many fluorescent bulbs have a high concentration of UV (particularly T5 and T8 bulbs). This UV-concentration is not high enough to melt the filter, but it can be high enough to cause premature fading of the color filter. We recommend using a Rosco UV filter (Part #: 3114) in-between the bulb and the color filter to keep the UV from fading the color.
https://www.rosco.com/product/uv-filter

This is standard practice for us in our RoscoSleeve business. Every T5 and T8 RoscoSleeve ships with the UV Filter in place.

101 03114 2024 UV Filter Sheets: 20" x 24" (50.8 cm x 61 cm)

 

[-Virgil-]

"1196" is a new one on me, with or without "NA" at the end of it. Did you mean 1156NA?

Also: Roscolux, fluorescent tubes, UV filters, lime green...looks like this thread has gone pretty far off any topic relevant to this forum, let alone this thread. Could we please try to stay reasonably close to relevant topics?

 

[MayerLight]

Here's a question that came into my mind: Do red lens, clear bulb turn signals also have a visibility advantage in bright sunlight over clear lens, colored bulb turn signals? Putting aside the obvious disadvantage of them being, well, red.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Here's a question that came into my mind: Do red lens, clear bulb turn signals also have a visibility advantage in bright sunlight over clear lens, colored bulb turn signals? Putting aside the obvious disadvantage of them being, well, red.

The reduction of sun phantoms is the advantage of having a colored lens over a clear bulb. And, yes, red turn signals have a severe disadvantage compared to yellow turn signals, because they add ambiguity.

 

[jeffsf]

As I wanted some Osram 2886X bulbs and needed something for the front PY21W, I checked Amazon UK and was pleasantly surprised to find that AmazonGlobal Standard shipping on these was reasonable (£4.36) and the posted prices were reduced by the 20% VAT. Seller in both cases is Amazon EU S.a.r.L.

Osram 2886X, 10 pcs. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00R33YBV6/ £12.78 incl. VAT on the listing, removed in the cart
Osram PY21W Diadem, pair https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007OYVJO6/ £8.15 incl. VAT

Checkout total, £17.44 + £4.36 = £21.80 ~ $28.14

If you have a reasonable or no premium for forex on your credit card, paying in GBP may be better than in USD.

 

[-Virgil-]

Careful with those "Osram Diadem Chrome" bulbs in your link; they are not the actual Osram Diadem bulbs, but instead a cheaper and inferior design that puts out quite a bit less light -- down near the bottom of the allowable range for the PY21W bulb type. If you want a chrome-look bulb, the Philips SilverVision is the one to go for. If an irridescent blue-green look (when off) suits you, the real Diadem (Osram number 7507LDA) is the one.

 

[jeffsf]

The Valeo tail clusters were installed in about 20 minutes. A 10 mm ratchet removes the nut that retains the cluster. Two clips pushed back from inside release the cluster. With one amber-lensed cluster and one red-lensed cluster installed, both still with stock P21W bulbs, use of the "hazard" blinkers revealed a striking difference in perceived brightness alone. The color adds to the conspicuity and recognition, both for turn signals, as well as hazard blinkers not being two, red, tail lights involved. Highly recommended, even without the Stanley/Honda bulbs (still on order).

Thanks for the constructive information on the Osram 7507DC vs. the 7507LDA, both of which are sold with the "Diadem" name as part of their marketing. I was able to cancel the Amazon order and am back to finding a decent option for PY21W for the shared-compartment, front turn/position lights with decent or superior light output and decent life/cost ratio (they will be used as DRLs with a DRL-1).

At least Osram publishes spec sheets with some meaningful information on life; B3/Tc on the 7507DC is 100/250 hrs, compared to the 7507LDA at 500/1000, or even the "Original PY21W" (7507) at 250/500. From what I've found, the Sylvania 7507 have a 400 hour "life", the Sylvania 7507LL at 1000, and the Philips 12496SV at 500 (I didn't find a formal definition of "life" for these). (For amusement, the "generic" CEC 7507 states a 150 hour life, with the GE PY21W at 200 hours.) The 7507LDAs are something of a challenge to obtain right now; PowerBulbs carries the DC, the similarly named Candlepower company carries them at $16/pair.

No significant desire for the chrome look, they were something of an impulse add-on given their roughly comparable cost (with shipping already covered) to what was available on Amazon (US) to be a first replacement of the decayed PY21Ws before I made a decision on what came next. There might be a slight advantage to what I'm guessing is a dichroic coating over the typical amber in the single-compartment optics of the front "IP" combined light (photo) by reducing the amber tinting of the parking function, slightly increasing the white-to-amber color differentiation.

At least from what I can find, short of filing pins or modifying/replacing the bulb holder (round, twist-in, Valeo, front view, back view), a PY21W is the only meaningful bulb that fits a BAU15s (RY10W is the other). Hella seems to be the only brand that offers a clear-bulbed option, their 7507C. Unless I'm missing something, tinting of the lens isn't going to help open up the options.

So I'm back to "Current, Amber-Bulb (PY21W) Options" for the front. With a 500-hour B3 and use as DRLs, I'm guessing a little more than a year's of driving between replacements. Any visibility/quality reason to prefer (or avoid) any of the following (or other options) that seem to be readily available at reasonable prices (though the Osram 7507LDA is notably more expensive)?

Osram 7507 ("Original")
Osram 7507ULT ("Ultra Life")
Osram 7507LDA ("Diadem")
Sylvania 7507LL
Philips 12496HTC ("Standard")
Philips 12496LL
Philips 12496NA ("Vision")
Philips 12496LLECO ("EcoVision", availability unknown)
Bosch PY21WLL
Hella 7507[TB]

(I've included some of the "standard life" bulbs in case they had significantly more output than the "long life" ones, especially as many the standard-line bulbs can be obtained at prices that wouldn't preclude replacing bulbs every six months. 10-pack distribution is not a problem, as I'm hoping to get several more years from the car.)

 

[-Virgil-]

If you're going to run them as DRLs, go grab that $16 price from Candlepower; that's a good deal on a very long-life bulb that will never fade or flake. You'd want to keep an eye on temperature of the plastic lamp housing; it's a small one that wasn't designed for the heat of a constant-lit turn signal bulb. It might handle it just fine, but it also might not.