$upport our troops...

[ikendu]

I was at a demonstration today and carried this sign:

$upport Our Troops and Veterans

It has two meanings:

1. Plain old...support our troops
2. Let's not be stingy with our money when we've got troops in the field. I always find it disturbing when I see combat veterans denied access to health care (like when our gov't tried to pretend that "Gulf War Syndrome" couldn't possibly have been caused by service in the last Gulf war). Same thing happened to VietNam vets.

I really don't see the logic of asking for tax cuts when you are running big deficits and you are in the middle of a war.

Anyway...one of the interesting observations for me was that while we were standing by an intersection where most motorists had to slow down for a light, how many people simply wouldn't look at you to even see WHAT your sign said (I was also holding an American flag fluttering in the wind).

It's as though many Americans are simply embarrased to see other Americans out there exercising their right to free speech. Quite strange.

It was pretty cold today in Iowa with a really stiff wind blowing and my fingers and toes got pretty cold. My wife was concerned about that but I reminded her that there are a lot more people in Iraq right now putting up with a lot more discomfort THAN that.

So, now that I'm home where I am warm and comfortable, here are some warm, positive thoughts going out to all of those in Iraq. Hang in there, let's hope for a speedy end to the fighting and for peace for Iraq's people.

 

[tkl]

for or against the war?

 

[NightStorm]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Dan

 

[ikendu]

tkl said:...for or against the war?

As far as supporting our troops, I don't think it is relevant what I think about the war.

Whether a war is right or is wrong, the troops we send deserve our support. They are honor bound by their oath of service to go where their commander in chief sends them.

It does though, place a special obigation on those of us left behind, to make extra sure we are sending troops into a war we should be fighting. WE should be honor bound to research, think, consider and then act to be certain we only commit troops in a cause that makes sense. THAT is the honor obligation of democracy.

 

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:
tkl said:...for or against the war?

As far as supporting our troops, I don't think it is relevant what I think about the war.

Whether a war is right or is wrong, the troops we send deserve our support. They are honor bound by their oath of service to go where their commander in chief sends them.



[/ QUOTE ]

For the purposes of this thread and our current world situation, you should have stopped your post right there. The rest of it is for another time and place. Right now, this is all that matters... Well said, ikendu... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

 

[Sigman]

ikendu, well said...I think folks at intersections sometimes feel as if there could be a "confrontation" or perhaps they think you are "panhandling" and don't want to look at you or your signs?? You know there are alot of nuts out there...:D

But indeed, whether or not one supports the war, please support the trooops who are doing their jobs. War is absolutely a terrible last effort!

I know as a "wing-nut" (airman) we trained for the "job", but hoped it would never extend beyond training. However if it did, we were well trained professionals "ready to perform".

 

[tkl]

that's what i thought. i'm not surprised people passing by didn't want to look at you. i won't go into why, we all know.

 

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
tkl said:
that's what i thought. i'm not surprised people passing by didn't want to look at you. i won't go into why, we all know.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHOA!! That's just a tad bit confrontational, don't you think? And don't play stupid with me and try to take me for a fool. None of us on here are stupid. Knock off this kind of stuff ... everyone!!... and I do mean it!! I'll put a stop to ALL topics having anything at all to do with the war!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[tkl]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
tkl said:
that's what i thought. i'm not surprised people passing by didn't want to look at you. i won't go into why, we all know.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHOA!! That's just a tad bit confrontational, don't you think? And don't play stupid with me and try to take me for a fool. None of us on here are stupid. Knock off this kind of stuff ... everyone!!... and I do mean it!! I'll put a stop to ALL topics having anything at all to do with the war!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you took what i said as anti-troops?

ikendu not wanting to say what kind of "demonstration" it was and other posts of his i gather he is anti-war. so i assume he was at an anti-war protest, most people don't want to look at them because most people don't protest the war.

 

[Greta]

I took your post exactly as you meant it. Don't push me tkl. I've had enough of this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif crap that all of you seem to think you can continue on with and that we are too stupid to recognize it for what it is... baiting. tkl, I suggest you don't respond to this post unless you have something positive to say in order to support our troops. I will NOT allow this thread to be hi-jacked this way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[tkl]

i am supporting the troops! what's more supportive than telling someone they're not helping our troops when they see someone talking out of one side of their mouth with "i support the troops" and then use the other for why are we there it's about oil blah blah blah.

 

[NightStorm]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Dan

 

[FalconFX]

I think a lot of people don't realize that you don't have to support the war effort in order to support the troops. Some think that it's inseperable (or try to paint it that way), but I believe you at least have to distinguish between the two. I think for most, when they see a sign that says to the effect: "war is bad", usually they associate the soldiers as carrying on the deeds of the war; utterly untrue.

I would hope those who are demonstrating against a war in Iraq at least have the moral decency to support the men and women of the armed forces and give their condolences when someone is injured or killed.

 

[Greta]

Falcon... I believe that is exactly the point that ikendu was/is trying to make with this thread. And that is why I find it unacceptable that tkl attempted to make it about whether or not anyone supported the war. Thank you for making my point so efficiently... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

 

[geepondy]

Sasha,

This forum is not a democracy. As a moderator, you show extremely good judgement in my opinion. Cut these people off as you see fit. I think in these times, a particularly short fuse is in order.

 

[tkl]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
Falcon... I believe that is exactly the point that ikendu was/is trying to make with this thread. And that is why I find it unacceptable that tkl attempted to make it about whether or not anyone supported the war. Thank you for making my point so efficiently... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

who's baiting now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif go back and read some of your comments on letting threads/comments die.

 

[2dogs]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Maybe we need a CPF.politics with rules such as no cursing, no name calling, etc.

 

[Unicorn]

[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
I think a lot of people don't realize that you don't have to support the war effort in order to support the troops. Some think that it's inseperable (or try to paint it that way), but I believe you at least have to distinguish between the two. I think for most, when they see a sign that says to the effect: "war is bad", usually they associate the soldiers as carrying on the deeds of the war; utterly untrue.

I would hope those who are demonstrating against a war in Iraq at least have the moral decency to support the men and women of the armed forces and give their condolences when someone is injured or killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logically, often the two are inseperable. If the war is illegal/immoral/unjust, then those who are fighting the illegal war are inviolation of the law, either US or international. "Just following orders," is not an excuse. This is why I can't stand most of the protesters who keep saying that they support the troops, while saying that the war those same troops are fightin in, is illegal, caused by an illegal government (Bush). If they believe that the war is merely unnesary, or that we should have waited for the UN to have a better world opinion, then I feel that they can say both, but those who feel the war is totally wrong (I hate to keep using the wrod illegal), can only be supportive of the troops the same way you give support to a friend going to prison for murder. That is basically what these people are saying. It is every soldiers moral and legal responsibility to disobey an unlawful order, if the war is unlawful then the orders to fight it are also. These protesters seem to be saying that our servicemembers are criminals because we are 1: a bunch of warmongering killers, are too afraid to stand up for what is right, 2: are too stupid to know the difference, 3: or are just brainwashed sheep.
Don't tell someone that you support them, while calling them a murderer, in nice terms of course.
I also hate those stupid signs, the Support Our TROOPS Bring them HOME, End the war NOW. Now you're just using our military as an excuse. Thanks a whole lot.

Anyway to the subject of the post, some people don't look because they might have seen the flag and assumed you were pro-war or military and were opposed, some might have assumed you were anti-war and were the opposite. Where I live, there have been so many peace protests (actually every Friday at the Federal building downtown since 1966), that I did a double take once when I realised it was a pro-troops, and pro-war rally.

 

[ikendu]

Unicorn said: Logically, often the two are inseperable. ... "Just following orders," is not an excuse.

If our troops are given "patently illegal" or immoral orders like "shoot all of those unarmed civilians"...then I agree, "Just following orders" would be no excuse. I don't think that is happening or is likely to happen in this war.

But...you could still be very much against the war and still support our troops.

Let's say that you comepletely agreed that we should go after terrorists and you very much supported the action in Afganistan where a state gov't knew it was harboring, supporting and encouraging the terrorists that attacked the U.S. on 9-11 but that gov't refused to do anything about it. You could still be quite opposed to the war in Iraq as just the wrong tactic or strategy.

Bin Laden was operating openly in Afganistan with full support of the Taliban. Al Queda and the Taliban were united in their objectives. In the case of Iraq, Al Queda has declared itself in opposition to Saddam. They would like to overthrow Saddam and replace his "secular", non-religious gov't with a fundametalist, Islamist gov't just like the Taliban.

So...you could easily view the U.S. attack on Iraq as the wrong decision, but at the same time recogize that the troops didn't make that decision. They followed their oath of service. The troops very much deserve our respect and our support.

 

[FalconFX]

[EDIT]: The "short short" version:

Legality of the war: Res 1441... You can spin it any way you want.

Immoral/unjust war: Saddam Hussein. Make your own judgment.

I really didn't want to respond to this, but silence doesn't mean an agreement.

In the end, we should've finished the job we started back in '91. Now we're going to get it done.