Why are twisties better then clickies? Seriously.

[Oddjob]

Something to consider is how you hold your light. I recently went camping and I took my HDS, PD and FF3. For walking in the woods I found the twisties on my PD and FF handy because I was holding it in a more natural position at my side pointing forwards. For around camp, I found the clickie of the HDS handy because I was holding it in a cigar grip using it pointing downwards most of the time. Obviously, swithching grips isn't difficult but in each instance the clickie or the twistie fit the lighting needs at the time. I think it is just personal preference and the bottom line is it is just apples and oranges IMHO.

 

[nerdgineer]

...I don't see the supposed reliability difference between a twisty vs clicky switch of a single light as so critical...

There are 2 different issues: whether there is any difference in reliability between comparable quality clicky and twisty lights; and how much that difference (if any) is worth to a user.

It's clear the importance reliability (past some perceived point) varies among people.

And it seems equally clear that most people agree that there IS a difference in reliability and that twisties are better in this sense.

Some care and some don't. Ditto on size and cost....

 

[ringzero]

The only resonable arguments for a twisty I can gather just from reading around here is that they take up a bit less space and they tend to hold up a bit better over the years (mechanically).

In my experience, twisties are NOT more reliable. Over the years, I've experienced more failures with twisties than with clickies.

I've done a lot of caving, and caving subjects lights to brutal conditions that will expose their flaws in short order. I've never been purposely hard on caving lights, because when they crap out they have to be replaced. However, regular caving use just seems to destroy flashlights. (Canoeing, rock climbing, and winter backpacking are also good for real world durability testing of flashlights.)

I've gone through a lot of flashlights during decades of outdoors recreation, but I can recall only a handful of clicky failures. AshFlash: waterproof, rubber-armored 2D light, made in Hong Kong. Eveready Adventure: waterproof, plastic, gasketed 2D. A Mag 2D. But, I had more specimens of each of these lights that never experienced a clicky failure.

OTOH, I can recall many failures of twisty lights: Pelican Sabrelight, Maglight Solitaire, Pelican Mightylite, Maglite MiniMag, Teknalite 2AA, etc., etc.

I prefer twisties for keychain-type lights, because they don't seem to turn themselves on in my pocket, at least not very often. They allow the light to be somewhat shorter. For me, those are their only advantages.

Ergonomically, they are inferior in every respect to click or slide switches. Every on-off operation puts wear on the threads and O-ring. They tend to clog with pocket lint, grit, and mud.

I have a feeling that some people advocating twisties for survival use haven't actually used them under less than ideal conditions. I agree that small twisties are good emergency/backup lights, when packed away in a rucksack pocket or survival kit. An Inova X1 with fresh cell always rides along in my rucksack for emergency use, in a waterproof ziplock bag.

 

[yalskey]

So I guess I know now why the world of flashlights is divided into the 2 camps of twisties and clickies.

 

[jeffb]

Simply, I prefer twisties (head) for a 1 cell, pocket carry light (also prefer a low and a high).

Sometimes just accepting that others prefer different things is the challenge. Actually, it's what makes life interesting.

Lots of people, lots of choices! Enjoy the choice that you make and allow others to enjoy theirs...................only "ego's" say IMO...............I (in big bold capital letters) can't imagine that you REALLY choose..............(because I (in big bold capital letters)DON"T.

jeffb

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

Since I have a handfull of twisty lights, and a buttload of clicky lights, I shouldn't try so hard to defend twisty.

But seriously, since I removed the Kroll from my LUXIII Mini it is even easier/faster to put in action.

And on my planned purchase (some day...) of a Fenix P1 I tend to believe the P1 will be better for me as a twisty.

I'll try to stay out of this now....

 

[NeonLights]

Saying one type of switch is the best for all lights and all situations is a bit of a stretch IMO.

I prefer twisty switches for small EDC lights like my ARC AAA-P and Fenix P1 where compact size and reliability are big concerns.

For lights that I would use if/when I'm faced with a "tactical" type situation, where short bursts of very bright light are required, like from my P91 and P61 Surefire equipped lights, a momentary on tailswitch is most desirable.

For lights with longer runtime that see more use around my property where durability isn't as much of a concern as is convenience, I prefer clickie switches, as used on my Tigerlight FBOP and my LED equipped MiniMags with Kroll tailswitches and the SL Stinger I use in my shop.

I also like the two stage switches that are on my Surefire A2 and L1, I guess those are more of a hybrid type switch though. If I had to settle for one type of switch for all of my lights and all purposes, I would get very frustrated. IMO use the right light and right switch for the task. No one light or one type of switch will be ideal for all uses. Anyone who says different is probably trying to sell you something.

-Keith

 

[SCblur]

Two "Princess Bride" quotes in a single post. Classic!

Anyone who says different is probably trying to sell you something.

-Keith

 

[NeonLights]

Two "Princess Bride" quotes in a single post. Classic!

LMAO.....and that one wasn't even intentional. I guess The dialogue from the movie is so ingrained in my subconscience that it wouldn't be inconceivable for me to quote the PB in normal conversation. Oops, did it again

 

[SCblur]

double-post

 

[joema]

...It's clear the importance reliability (past some perceived point) varies among people...And it seems equally clear that most people agree that there IS a difference in reliability and that twisties are better in this sense....

By clicky switches, do you include momentary-on clickies like the U2, e2e, e2d, SL Propoly Lux 4AA, etc? When these "fail", does the light totally fail to come on (which could be serious) or does the momentary on function still work (which is less serious)?

Clicky switches could also include any pushbutton constant on light, including HDS and headlamps (SL Argo HP, etc). If clicky switches are so unreliable that only twisties are suitable for important applications, does this also include all headlamps that use clicky switches?

I've seen several statements that only twisties are reliable enough for critical applications without specifying emitter type. Since an incandescent emitter is more likely to fail than the switch, what's the point of mandating only twisty lights for reliability, yet using incandescent emitters? If you say "well, the poor incan. emitter reliability is so well known I always carry spare emitters", that causes two problems: (a) the same could be said of the switch (b) the emitter can always fail at an inopportune time.

There's also storage reliability. I haven't seen anybody say I only use primary lithium-powered LED twisties that are direct-drive with no electronics. For a bug-out bag or other emergency use after long term (possibly low temperature) storage, it seems you'd also mandate lithium only power.

Personally I like twisties for size and simplicity. Also they don't require a separate lock-out motion, so are less likely to come on accidentally when stored in a pack or bag.

However if a chain is only strong as the weakest link. If you're talking about tactical reliability, it seems other failure sources (esp. incandescent emitter) swamp the failure probability of a clicky switch, esp. those with a momentary feature. I don't understand the sweeping, unqualified statments about nothing besides a twisty for critical applications, when that also would include incandescent emitters and exclude all headlamps with click switches.

 

[nerdgineer]

...Over the years, I've experienced more failures with twisties than with clickies....

I do agree that you can make a twisty switch which can fail. There are twisty designs where the contact is made by causing some piece of metal to flex by movement of the twisty part rather than by direct contact. I know my PT Attitude's work this way and perhaps other plastic twisty lights (and many PTs, UK's and others are) do. The flexing metal part can break in this case and cause a failure. I've also had the tail spring in a CHEAP tail twisty light break off (it was soldered to a board rather than wedged into the tail), causing failure.

However, there are 2 basic metal body twisty designs which the reliable designs: the simple direct contact point twisty like in the Arc AAA and most Peaks, and the spring loaded direct contact twisty like the Civictor I refer to above.

I don't think THESE twisty designs have any likely failure points, and these are what I'm thinking of when I say twisties are reliable.

 

[NeonLights]

I've seen several statements that only twisties are reliable enough for critical applications without specifying emitter type. Since an incandescent emitter is more likely to fail than the switch, what's the point of mandating only twisty lights for reliability, yet using incandescent emitters? If you say "well, the poor incan. emitter reliability is so well known I always carry spare emitters", that causes two problems: (a) the same could be said of the switch (b) the emitter can always fail at an inopportune time.

I've had several LED failures on different lights, they were all in their original configuration, no mods. In fact, thinking back, if you don't count Mag bulbs, I've had about as many LED failures in the last 3-4 years as I have incan bulbs go out on me. It is very simple and easy and cheap (for most lights) to carry an extra incan bulb around (some lights even carry a spare bulb in the light). Not so easy to carry spare LED's or LED replacement parts around for quick change in the field. I have many LED lights, but I always have at least one backup, if not multiple lights on my person. In my experience, the simplest, most reliable, most dependable source of light is a simple incan with twisty switch (simple circuit, no electronics) and a spare bulb, with lithium batteries (AA, AAA, or 123).

-Keith

 

[joema]

I've had several LED failures on different lights, they were all in their original configuration, no mods...I've had about as many LED failures in the last 3-4 years as I have incan bulbs go out on me...In my experience, the simplest, most reliable, most dependable source of light is a simple incan with twisty switch (simple circuit, no electronics) and a spare bulb, with lithium batteries (AA, AAA, or 123)...

I'd be interested in everyone else's comments on this. Namely do they think LED emitters in non-modified stock lights are no more reliable than incandescent emitters. This would include all causes of failure including dropping the light while in use.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

I'd be interested in everyone else's comments on this. (Incan bulb failures -- SUB) Namely do they think LED emitters in non-modified stock lights are no more reliable than incandescent emitters. This would include all causes of failure including dropping the light while in use.

These days all of my lights are LED lights. I've had just two failures of LED lights that were either the result of the LED or some other component. (One of those lights is still in service in the Umbra household in spite of 20% of it's LEDs not working.)

This old geeser has had MANY failures of incan bulbs. In the 80's my old Tekna dive light was like clockwork at about 6 hours per 222 incan bulb burnout. In the 90s my MMs bulbs failed at a very predictable rate also -- although I've managed to put it out of my mind. Of course bulb life is only a very small part of the story when you are using a light in extremus. It should also be mentioned that aside from 'natural death' many of the drops that kill your incan bulb will also kill your unused spare in the tail.

In all fairness I have rethought my position on incan bulb failures to a certain extent after reading hard core incan users claims that they know that they are going to fail and they carry spares and they are practiced in replacing them. That is a realistic argument to me. For that reason I no longer consider an incan bulb failure to be as serious (for them) as I have in the past.

I just don't want to have to put up with it myself.

 

[ringzero]

I do agree that you can make a twisty switch which can fail. There are twisty designs where the contact is made by causing some piece of metal to flex by movement of the twisty part rather than by direct contact. I know my PT Attitude's work this way and perhaps other plastic twisty lights (and many PTs, UK's and others are) do.

Yes nerdgineer, but consider the makers of these twisty lights: Underwater Kinetics, Pelican, Princeton Tec. These companies are considered premier manufacturers in the waterproof-ruggedized-industrial-extreme environment segment of the market. I would argue that if these highly experienced companies have trouble making reliable twisties, then it may be because the twisty's basic nature makes it intrinsically less reliable than other switches.



I don't own either the Civictor or Arc AAA, but have read reviews and looked at pics of them disassembled. They both look to be great little pocket lights for use under benign evironmental conditions - i.e. everyday use. Their twisty switches are probably very reliable under those conditions.

But, based on past experience with twisty lights, I have doubts as to how reliable the Civictor or ARC would be if used frequently in the sandy, muddy environments often encountered in outdoor activities. I'm sure they are fine little pocket lights and both look well suited for carry as backup-emergency lights during outdoor activities. I carry an Inova X1 for this purpose, which is similar to these lights.

Among pocket twisties, I think the Mag Solitaire is one of the better switch designs. Sort of a hybrid, with a twisty head pushing on a momentary contact push button switch, which also happens to house the lamp socket.

Putting the actual switch inside the head makes a lot of sense to me. It avoids dependence on the contact of exposed bare metal parts to complete the circuit. Also, I like being able to remove the head and still have a working light. I'm guessing that Mag has a patent on this design or it would be used more widely.

I have four or five Solitaires that are all over fifteen-years old. All of them have seen a lot of use under all sorts of conditons. All of them are badly beat up, but they all still work. I still carry one on my keychain.

 

[Long John]

Less moveable parts - more reliable.
Is the twistie well build, AL, TI, HAIII coated, also the threads from the batterie-tube, what could go brake?
At a plastic light, the threads are also plastic, so the chance to fail is much more greater. Also bare AL is soft.

A clicky has much more parts which can go fail, mostly some plastic parts.

Is a o-ring in front of the threads, no dust or water can go inside. A little crease (I prefer "White Lightning") on the threads and voila.

The very reliable dive lights from "Barbolights" have the twisties.
The question is: "Why?".

Best regards

____
Tom

 

[nerdgineer]

...but consider...Underwater Kinetics, Pelican, Princeton Tec....if these highly experienced companies have trouble making reliable twisties, then it may be because the twisty's basic nature makes it intrinsically less reliable than other switches...

I believe that any twisty problems these makers had stemmed from the constraints imposed by their use of plastic bodies rather than from any limitations of direct contact twisty switches on metal bodied lights, which their products weren't and which to me represent true twisties.

Twisties on plastic body lights require metal contact strips which can fatigue and break. This can not occur with the direct contact twisty switches used on good metal bodied lights (Arc AAA, Civictor, etc.).

As a counterexample, Surefire makes metal body flashlights and emphasizes reliability, and they chose twisty switches (with intermittent buttons embedded) for all/most of their early lights. I don't have one but it seems that their later clicky based designs have had reliability problems which their twisties didn't, so inherent reliability still seems to lie with the twisties, all else (including quality) being equal.

 

[nerdgineer]

...But, based on past experience with twisty lights, I have doubts as to how reliable the Civictor or ARC would be if used frequently in the sandy, muddy environments often encountered in outdoor activities...

Being a desk type engineer rather than a hardhat type engineer, I have very limited experience with harsh environments. However, in my experience with BENIGN environments, I have had 4 clickies fail (1 big Maglite, 1 big Kel-lite, and 2 Arc LS Krolls) compared to no comparable twisty failures. Maybe it's the switch lottery and not stastically significant, but it's what I know.

Muddy or dusty environments may eventually wear out a "good" type twisty, but I think the twisty design would allow me to see this happening and correct it before a failure occurs. I can see o-ring wear and replace one if I had one the right size. All the contact surfaces of the Arc AAA or Civictor type twisties are accessible to me so I can clean and maintain them as needed. I can't say the same for a clicky.

There are of course VERY reliable clickies made. My old Lightwave Infiniton had a 10,000+ cycle industrial rated switch in it which I trusted completely. However, it also cost like $129 new for a 1W lux; and I don't think any makers of clicky lights today (including Surefire) are willing to pay for such a heavy duty switch.

All else being equal (including cost), I still think "good" twisty's win out for reliability (whether the extra margin is worth it is an individual's preference) due to their simplicity, predictability, and if necessary, maintainability.

Maybe I'll have an experience to change my mind some day, but right now, I just can't see how a good twisty, reasonably cared for, could EVER fail me...

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Twisties have the potential to perform very reliably under all of the conditions mentioned so far in this thread. In some environments they will require more frequent and thoughtfull maintainance. They are machines that require care.

The military often issues the very same weapons in sandy or muddy environs as they do in less challenging settings. No one expects the same performance in these diverse locals with identical maintainance procedures and schedules.

In the mud or the sand twisties will always be easier to keep functioning reliably than automatic weapons will be in the same situation. The people who have to depend on their lights in those places generally know that and adjust their maintainance routines accordingly.

If you have to clean and lube the rings every three days instead of every forty-five days, sometimes that's just the cost of doing business.

There are also industrial environs where gasses in the air may attack parts of your light. If you are working in a corrosive atmosphere it may be much easier to replace your o-rings frequently on a twistie than find the right part and wrestle periodically with a rubber clickie switch cover.