Icebreak
Flashlight Enthusiast
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We?
Um...well, on with the topic:
Will the KLx hurt ARC LS sales?
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Um...well, on with the topic:
brightnorm
Flashaholic
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2001
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- 7,160
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow!
It's pretty flowery. I think getting back with my girfriend had a stronger influence on me than I realized.
OTOH many of us Flashaholics (is that term coming into disrepute or what, I don't see it as often as before) are interesting combinations of poets and techies, not excluding your often eloquent self.
Frankly, I think we are a fascinating group of smart and pretty decent folks. It's a nice place to be.
Cheers,
Brightnorm
BuddTX
Flashlight Enthusiast
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See if my post helps you make a decision one way or the other.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003147#000003
r2
Enlightened
The high cost of the Arc LS comes up quite often in this discussion, so I think it is worthwhile remembering a few things. The original price of the LS kit (including all 3 battery tubes) was $100 list, probably less at a dealer. Peter was using profits from the Arc AAA to fund R&D on the LS, but it got too expensive to continue that way with all the problems that came up (not least of which was inconsistent LS emitter quality).
When Peter announced the price increases and the availability of 2nd kits, he said that his reasoning was to decrease demand (production was and still is at a pretty low level) and to fund more of the LS R&D from LS sales.
The important point here is that the current prices shouldn't really be considered final. I think Peter stated that prices would come down eventually, once he was satisfied with the quality and started higher volume production. For now, it just doesn't make sense to eat the cost when the demand still outstrips the supply.
Surefire lights are all expensive because R&D costs are built into the price of every light they sell. The initial sales of the KLx series are not covering the R&D costs of the KLx specifically. Since SF already has a bunch of lights in production and can afford the R&D, they can also afford to start production at a more reasonable and permanent price point.
If you are considering the long term future of both product lines, I think it is a mistake to assume that the current Arc LS prices are going to be permanent. CPF members who are willing to shell out a bunch of money for early production models are basically acting as (willing) guinea pigs for Arc's R&D.
- Russ
When Peter announced the price increases and the availability of 2nd kits, he said that his reasoning was to decrease demand (production was and still is at a pretty low level) and to fund more of the LS R&D from LS sales.
The important point here is that the current prices shouldn't really be considered final. I think Peter stated that prices would come down eventually, once he was satisfied with the quality and started higher volume production. For now, it just doesn't make sense to eat the cost when the demand still outstrips the supply.
Surefire lights are all expensive because R&D costs are built into the price of every light they sell. The initial sales of the KLx series are not covering the R&D costs of the KLx specifically. Since SF already has a bunch of lights in production and can afford the R&D, they can also afford to start production at a more reasonable and permanent price point.
If you are considering the long term future of both product lines, I think it is a mistake to assume that the current Arc LS prices are going to be permanent. CPF members who are willing to shell out a bunch of money for early production models are basically acting as (willing) guinea pigs for Arc's R&D.
- Russ
JollyRoger
Enlightened
Will the KLX hurt ARC sales?
Hmmm....good question. We will only know once the products being discussed are being sold in numbers.
Perhaps one could ask, "Can the ARC LS and the KLX series be compared?" Well, yes and no.
Both are very small lights, but the ARC LS1 and LS2 are meant to be driven off 3V, be it one 123 or 2 AA's, etc. The ARC LS1 even does a fine job of using a single AA.
The old LS1 might be beaten by the KL1 in terms of brightness. However, I think if one *must* compare an ARC product with a KLX series, it should be the ARC LS2.
Both products have their merits. And both have weaknesses. The LS2 is driven by an all-new "brain," constant current and will give a flat output until the batteries are depleted....at which time it will enter a very respectable moon mode....(and I mean very, very impressive for a moon mode!) And did I mention the beam? It's perfect...with a very nice intense spot. And the color is beautiful. A cool white that leans towards blue, but doesn't really show any purple or violet.
With a single 123 setup, in its most compact form, I believe the LS2 will beat the KL1 for brightness and for flat output.
However, the KL1 is by now means inferior. It adds the flexibility of using 2 123's for a *much* longer runtime (just see the graph that's been posted). Sure, this setup adds to the size of the product, but not much (think E2). Plus, you're talking about a tried and tested Surefire product that can fit on your existing E1, E2, etc. And the price is very tempting.
If you want the smallest, brightest 1watt luxeon star flashlight using 1 123, I'd go for the ARC LS2. If you want a longer runtime and don't mind the slightly larger body (or like using 123's), I'd get the KLX and buy an E2 and E1. Remember that you can make the ARC LS just as big by using a 2AA pack with it, too...
Ultimately, if you find yourself comparing the lights, you just might end up finding yourself buying both. That's what I'm doing. In the end, the differences in brightness (if any) might not really be that great.
The LS3...which will come shortly after the LS2 is another beast altogether. This product shouldn't be compared to an existing KLX product...it's just different. And very bright indeed.....
Hmmm....good question. We will only know once the products being discussed are being sold in numbers.
Perhaps one could ask, "Can the ARC LS and the KLX series be compared?" Well, yes and no.
Both are very small lights, but the ARC LS1 and LS2 are meant to be driven off 3V, be it one 123 or 2 AA's, etc. The ARC LS1 even does a fine job of using a single AA.
The old LS1 might be beaten by the KL1 in terms of brightness. However, I think if one *must* compare an ARC product with a KLX series, it should be the ARC LS2.
Both products have their merits. And both have weaknesses. The LS2 is driven by an all-new "brain," constant current and will give a flat output until the batteries are depleted....at which time it will enter a very respectable moon mode....(and I mean very, very impressive for a moon mode!) And did I mention the beam? It's perfect...with a very nice intense spot. And the color is beautiful. A cool white that leans towards blue, but doesn't really show any purple or violet.
With a single 123 setup, in its most compact form, I believe the LS2 will beat the KL1 for brightness and for flat output.
However, the KL1 is by now means inferior. It adds the flexibility of using 2 123's for a *much* longer runtime (just see the graph that's been posted). Sure, this setup adds to the size of the product, but not much (think E2). Plus, you're talking about a tried and tested Surefire product that can fit on your existing E1, E2, etc. And the price is very tempting.
If you want the smallest, brightest 1watt luxeon star flashlight using 1 123, I'd go for the ARC LS2. If you want a longer runtime and don't mind the slightly larger body (or like using 123's), I'd get the KLX and buy an E2 and E1. Remember that you can make the ARC LS just as big by using a 2AA pack with it, too...
Ultimately, if you find yourself comparing the lights, you just might end up finding yourself buying both. That's what I'm doing. In the end, the differences in brightness (if any) might not really be that great.
The LS3...which will come shortly after the LS2 is another beast altogether. This product shouldn't be compared to an existing KLX product...it's just different. And very bright indeed.....
Charles Bradshaw
Flashlight Enthusiast
John of KEDCorp told me that the LS maker picked the 100 best LSes from its first batch, as samples. Little did anyone know, that the quality was going to so poor in the regular production run.
Production costs drop as reliable production makes it cost effective to drop prices. An example of this, was the 7400 TTL IC (quad 2-input NAND gate): the very first one cost over $100,000 US! The big companies can keep costs down, simply because they already have the light bodies, etcetera, in current production. It is simply perfecting a new head and mating it with a current body. Price drop right there. They didn't have to work out those details, like Mr. Gransee did with the Arc LS. Mr. Gransee was venturing into brand new territory, as it was not something to be powered by AAA batteries. He had to design from the ground up. I think he has done a wonderful job. His problems have been on his supply end. Once those are resolved and become stable, things will improve dramatically, and it will be good for all of us. He made the perfect design decision to go with both 123 and AA for power Sources. It would be nice for him to add 2C, even if he gets them from a certain source in Canada.
This sort of versatility will be a primary selling point beyond the very high quality of the product.
Production costs drop as reliable production makes it cost effective to drop prices. An example of this, was the 7400 TTL IC (quad 2-input NAND gate): the very first one cost over $100,000 US! The big companies can keep costs down, simply because they already have the light bodies, etcetera, in current production. It is simply perfecting a new head and mating it with a current body. Price drop right there. They didn't have to work out those details, like Mr. Gransee did with the Arc LS. Mr. Gransee was venturing into brand new territory, as it was not something to be powered by AAA batteries. He had to design from the ground up. I think he has done a wonderful job. His problems have been on his supply end. Once those are resolved and become stable, things will improve dramatically, and it will be good for all of us. He made the perfect design decision to go with both 123 and AA for power Sources. It would be nice for him to add 2C, even if he gets them from a certain source in Canada.
This sort of versatility will be a primary selling point beyond the very high quality of the product.
