Worth going to P60 drop-ins and 18650?

[AvPD]

I've been strictly an AA-only buyer as I already have rechargeables, a charger and a large stockpile of primaries. But calculating the capacity of Li-ion batteries in milliwatt hours and idea of buying a UV Ultrafire WF-502B and a drop-in has softened my stance.
The runtime seems good and upgradeability is possible, but the modules cost almost as much as a new AA light (alternatively could just replace the LED as with non-module lights), the P60-type reflector appears to be throwy (I prefer flood), and 18650 batteries and a charger are as much as a 2xAA light.

I like the idea but overall it seems like the costs outweigh the gains.

 

[Wattnot]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

Lithiums are great. Lots of capacity - they hold their charge very, VERY well and have a good discharge curve. Going up to the next battery size will also open a plethora of light options you just don't have right now. What's the brightest light you can get on AA's, the Fenix L series? Bust through the 180 lumen ceiling! (I could be way off, there might be more options than I'm aware of . . I'm still new here!) Of course a home-made, large light (like an ROP or a Mag85) can use multiple AA's and I'm not referring to those.

The chargers aren't that expensive . . . AW sells a decent one for under 20 bucks, I believe.

But li-ons are not perfect either. They have a shelf life (using them or not) of 2 to 3 years which can be significantly shortened due to ANY misuse. They don't want to be overcharged, or drained too far. That's what the protection circuitry does . . . protect you from a nice little gooey flame - and that has happened. They don't like the cold. If you leave them in a car in the winter, a fully charged battery will act like a 1/2 charged battery or less.

Here is the latest thing that is starting to bother me about them: You are supposed to store them at their nominal 3.7 volt state. That means they're nowhere near fully charged. The optimal use is to charge them then start using them right away. You shorten their life by leaving them fully charged, ESPECIALLY if you do that in an hot environment (like in your car in the summer). This bugs me because I was starting to set myself up where all of my lights would use 18650 cells. Well I talk about my lights far more than I use them. I like them standing by for months on end and I prefer to leave them fully charged! I like leaving them in my car, ready to go. But again, all of that just shortens their lifespan, it doesn't kill them immediately. The biggest thing is to not over charge them or drain them too far.

I hope I didn't scare you off. They're the next best thing to the CR123, which would be perfect if you could recharge it!! CR123's don't have any of the storage, hot or cold issues I described above.

 

[Daekar]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

They don't like the cold. If you leave them in a car in the winter, a fully charged battery will act like a 1/2 charged battery or less.

Here is the latest thing that is starting to bother me about them: You are supposed to store them at their nominal 3.7 volt state.

I just wanted to address these two comments. First, regarding the cold, your assertion that they perform 50% as well in the cold may be true, I'm not sure - but I do know that lithium batteries perform better in the cold than NiMH do... so given the choice of evils you'll have to choose the lesser. However, something in the back of my brain is telling me that li-ion hold up better than that in the cold. Hopefully someone will chime in who knows better. Secondly, I remember seeing one of the battery gurus here, Silverfox maybe, say that they prefer to store their li-ions at 4.15V. What the implications of that are I'll leave to you, but I'm inclined to think that it's not necessary to store them at 3.7V.

One nice thing about lithiums is the high power/weight density... mugh lighter than the equivlent power NiMH. Of course, protected lithiums tend to shut off rather suddenly, so you don't get any warning like with NiMH. There really are tradeoffs to each and advantages to each, and I have and use each for different things. I'm a big advocate of the CPF motto: BUY BOTH! :twothumbs

 

[Wattnot]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

No, everything I said is accurate . . . unless you're going to hold me to "50 percent" :nana: when I said 1/2, which should have been taken as an approximation.

Also, the long term storage at nominal voltage and the lifespan is also easily verifiable and factual.

You might be confusing the similar chemistry in the CR123 batteries with lithium ion. The lithium part is the same but rest of the chemistry is different. From my experience in using nimh in the cold with my RC hobby, they do a little better than lithium ion or lithium polymer.

I just wanted to address these two comments. First, regarding the cold, your assertion that they perform 50% as well in the cold may be true, I'm not sure - but I do know that lithium batteries perform better in the cold than NiMH do... so given the choice of evils you'll have to choose the lesser. However, something in the back of my brain is telling me that li-ion hold up better than that in the cold. Hopefully someone will chime in who knows better. Secondly, I remember seeing one of the battery gurus here, Silverfox maybe, say that they prefer to store their li-ions at 4.15V. What the implications of that are I'll leave to you, but I'm inclined to think that it's not necessary to store them at 3.7V.

One nice thing about lithiums is the high power/weight density... mugh lighter than the equivlent power NiMH. Of course, protected lithiums tend to shut off rather suddenly, so you don't get any warning like with NiMH. There really are tradeoffs to each and advantages to each, and I have and use each for different things. I'm a big advocate of the CPF motto: BUY BOTH! :twothumbs

 

[thermal guy]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

I used to go through 8 sf 123 a month in my hds that i carry at work.Now i use rechargeables and just top them up every couple days My rechargeables cost me about $30 and another $30 for the charger.8sf 123=$20
Charger/rechargeable=$70
Three months and i am a head of the game

 

[LightWalker]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

I've been strictly an AA-only buyer as I already have rechargeables, a charger and a large stockpile of primaries. But calculating the capacity of Li-ion batteries in milliwatt hours and idea of buying a UV Ultrafire WF-502B and a drop-in has softened my stance.
The runtime seems good and upgradeability is possible, but the modules cost almost as much as a new AA light (alternatively could just replace the LED as with non-module lights), the P60-type reflector appears to be throwy (I prefer flood), and 18650 batteries and a charger are as much as a 2xAA light.

I like the idea but overall it seems like the costs outweigh the gains.

I was debating on getting another Fenix 2xAA or a Dereelight CL1H and decided to get another Fenix (my fourth one now) but I may get the CL1H, a charger and an 18650 battery later.

There are some advantages and disadvantages to LI-ION Batt.
Here is a good place to learn about them: http://batteryuniversity.com/


Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalms 119:105

 

[Daekar]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

No, everything I said is accurate . . . unless you're going to hold me to "50 percent" :nana: when I said 1/2, which should have been taken as an approximation.

Also, the long term storage at nominal voltage and the lifespan is also easily verifiable and factual.

You might be confusing the similar chemistry in the CR123 batteries with lithium ion. The lithium part is the same but rest of the chemistry is different. From my experience in using nimh in the cold with my RC hobby, they do a little better than lithium ion or lithium polymer.

Watt,

I'm certainly open to the possibility that I was confusing attributes of lithium primaries and secondaries. I wonder, then, why in the headlamp forum someone who was asking for battery-pack information for a lamp to use while mushing his dogs was referred to lithium-ions for their cold-weather performance? :thinking: Perhaps that's where I got the idea, but whether those giving the recommendation were correct I don't know. About the storage voltage... I have no idea where I saw that blurb about storing li-ion cells, so I have no place to refer you - I'll go with the assumption that you're right. Thanks for setting me straight! :twothumbs Apologies to the OP for incorrect information... just goes to show you can't believe everything you read.

 

[Wattnot]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

Please don't get me wrong . . I love lithium ions! I'm just posting facts. They have great pluses and some minuses. The pluses far outweigh the minuses !!

If you want to use them in the cold, you can! But I would bet the guy driving his sled team keeps them in a warm pocket before use. It's not like they hit the cold and die . . . heat is generated by using them and if the device that is using them gives off heat, even better.

What I was referring to was my own scenario. Let say I want to make my WE Raider a "leave in the car all the time" light, which I would. In the dead of winter, when the outside temp and the inside temp match by the time my shift is over and the car has been sitting in the outside parking lot all night, those batteries will act like they need a charge! It happens with my fully charged cellphone and ipod. However, once they warm up a little, the battery meter comes up and all is well. It's more of an inconvenience than a major problem.

As for the hot weather thing on a full charge, that is something I learned recently and it's from a good source. If you fully charge lithium ions then put them in a hot environment (like inside a car parked outside in the middle of summer all day) they will work but you will shorten their two to three year lifespan down considerably. To me, their lifespan is already too short. I have 10 year old nicads that still work okay. But I have a 2 year old cell phone that has to be charged two or three times as often as when it was new or 1 year old.

Now all of those things I just mentioned above are negatives but they're nowhere near deal-breakers for me!! I love li-ons but it's good to know their limitations, that's all!

 

[AvPD]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

Does anyone have experience with drop-in modules? Seems like lithium battery chemistry alone isn't enough to justify the switch. A WF-606A seems to have good runtime if you make sure your NiMH's are fully charged.

 

[glenda17]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

Does anyone have experience with drop-in modules? Seems like lithium battery chemistry alone isn't enough to justify the switch. A WF-606A seems to have good runtime if you make sure your NiMH's are fully charged.

I bought a $20 Cabelas XPG and a $10 ebay dropin. For $30 it is brighter than any AA from fenix, much much brighter. I use it as a spotlight to check my backyard. No way a AA light could compete.

Also with the Li-ion rechargeables they hold charge much better after months of non-use. They also seem to work better with cheap chargers, with NiMH it seems you have to invest in a $60 chasrger for them to have a long lifetime, but thats just my experience.

I got rid of my AA charger and batteries, just wasn't worth all the failures. With Li-ion and am very satisfied.

 

[AvPD]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

I bought a $20 Cabelas XPG and a $10 ebay dropin. For $30 it is brighter than any AA from fenix, much much brighter. I use it as a spotlight to check my backyard. No way a AA light could compete.

Also with the Li-ion rechargeables they hold charge much better after months of non-use. They also seem to work better with cheap chargers, with NiMH it seems you have to invest in a $60 chasrger for them to have a long lifetime, but thats just my experience.

I got rid of my AA charger and batteries, just wasn't worth all the failures. With Li-ion and am very satisfied.

NiMH is a bit problematic when it comes to charging, I just bought a fancy charger from KaiDomain, but it still overheats some non-name brand rechargeables I bought on eBay a few years ago.
From the look of it I'll buy a triple-emitter torch down the road or a Seoul P7-based one. There doesn't seem to be any merit to buying a P60-based one, as the drop-ins are only of benefit if you want to upgrade from incandescent.

 

[Fusion_m8]

G'day champ!

I agree that most Cree based P60 dropin has a throw type beam, however, a SSC P4 dropin has a very useful floody beam. I'm using a cheap but surprisingly good quality SSC dropin from DX in my Surefire M2, running an AW protected 17670 or primary CR123s.

Down Under, the prices we pay for decent batteries is shocking, a pair of Energizer or Duracell CR123s found in Coles or Woolies is $18.95 and even $28.95 in some chemists and camera shops!

Getting the Ultrafire charger and protected Li-ons is the best move I've made in this flashlight hobby, yes Li-ons need more care than primaries, but its not all white cotton gloves. Far from it in fact, I've used Li-on powered flashlights in some pretty rugged and demanding situations like trekking in the Alpine snowfields to bushwalking in the Gippsland region and underground caving in Buchan, I've had no worries. In any of the potentially hazardous situations, I always carry a spare set of primaries and also have a AA powered pocket light for backup, just in case.

If you stick to proven brands of batteries and flashlights, your risk of equipment failure is minimal. I only know of good quality equipment failure at the wrong moment almost entirely due to user error neglecting the basic rules of care and equipment maintenance.

Happy Easter!

I've been strictly an AA-only buyer as I already have rechargeables, a charger and a large stockpile of primaries. But calculating the capacity of Li-ion batteries in milliwatt hours and idea of buying a UV Ultrafire WF-502B and a drop-in has softened my stance.
The runtime seems good and upgradeability is possible, but the modules cost almost as much as a new AA light (alternatively could just replace the LED as with non-module lights), the P60-type reflector appears to be throwy (I prefer flood), and 18650 batteries and a charger are as much as a 2xAA light.

I like the idea but overall it seems like the costs outweigh the gains.

 

[Gunner12]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

To answer your original question, which seems pretty well answered, I think it shouldn't be too expensive to start. $50 or less could get you a decent charger, decent batteries, and a cheap light slowly shipped to you from DX.

IMO, worth it. AA batteries for one task, and 18650 powered for another.

... but it still overheats some non-name brand rechargeables I bought on eBay a few years ago...

Time to get some batter batteries.

 

[jbosman1013]

Never had a problem with li-ion's (I work outside) and it gets a little cold here. A 18650 powered P60 light would be nice because of the battery capacity but most of the good drop-in's need more voltage so 2x r123 is the usual route.

 

[WadeF]

I love 18650's and P60 style drop-ins. I probably have more lithium ion's than I should, 18650's, R123's, 14500's, 10440's. Rather than having a bunch of lights loaded with these cells, I should just load one or two lights at a time, but I can't help myself! I must have a half dozen 18650's, and a dozen R123's. I already have two UF WA-139 chargers (or whatever AW sells for these batteries), and I'm tempted to order a 3rd. I'm impatient...

 

[Curious_character]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

Please don't get me wrong . . I love lithium ions! I'm just posting facts. They have great pluses and some minuses. The pluses far outweigh the minuses !!

If you want to use them in the cold, you can! But I would bet the guy driving his sled team keeps them in a warm pocket before use. It's not like they hit the cold and die . . . heat is generated by using them and if the device that is using them gives off heat, even better.

What I was referring to was my own scenario. Let say I want to make my WE Raider a "leave in the car all the time" light, which I would. In the dead of winter, when the outside temp and the inside temp match by the time my shift is over and the car has been sitting in the outside parking lot all night, those batteries will act like they need a charge! It happens with my fully charged cellphone and ipod. However, once they warm up a little, the battery meter comes up and all is well. It's more of an inconvenience than a major problem.

As for the hot weather thing on a full charge, that is something I learned recently and it's from a good source. If you fully charge lithium ions then put them in a hot environment (like inside a car parked outside in the middle of summer all day) they will work but you will shorten their two to three year lifespan down considerably. To me, their lifespan is already too short. I have 10 year old nicads that still work okay. But I have a 2 year old cell phone that has to be charged two or three times as often as when it was new or 1 year old.

Now all of those things I just mentioned above are negatives but they're nowhere near deal-breakers for me!! I love li-ons but it's good to know their limitations, that's all!

My solution to this is to put primary lithium cells in the lights I use only rarely but want to keep ready to go.

Spare Li-ion cells which I don't use often and don't need to have immediately available are discharged to around 40% capacity and kept in the refrigerator. That combination should extend the lifetime considerably.

c_c

 

[roymail]

I love my SF 6P w/P60 dropin and intended to go the rechargeable Li-Ion route... however, I beginning to wonder if rechargeables are for me. I'm what you would call a casual user. I may pick it up a time or two each day, and some days not at all. I rarely use it for more than 5 minutes at a time. I'm using primaries that I bought from Battery Junction, and so far they're lasting a long time. I'm sure to get more than a month to six weeks on a set of batteries.

So, are rechargeables for me? Maybe someone can convince me... thanks! :wave:

Roy

 

[Curious_character]

I love my SF 6P w/P60 dropin and intended to go the rechargeable Li-Ion route... however, I beginning to wonder if rechargeables are for me. I'm what you would call a casual user. I may pick it up a time or two each day, and some days not at all. I rarely use it for more than 5 minutes at a time. I'm using primaries that I bought from Battery Junction, and so far they're lasting a long time. I'm sure to get more than a month to six weeks on a set of batteries.

So, are rechargeables for me? Maybe someone can convince me... thanks! :wave:

Roy

With that sort of use, I don't see any point in messing with rechargeables.

c_c

 

[TomBrown]

Re: Worth going to P60 with 18650?

I'm just posting facts.

You are posting things that are misleading.

Li-Ion performs substantially better in the cold than NiMH. The difference is fantastic.

Li-Ion hold up better in hot conditions than NiMH. The difference is fantastic.

Put a fresh, fully charged NiMH on your dash and watch the heat drain the charge. Li-Ion can take 60C with little problem.

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Myself I like LiIons, especially 18650s. P60 Dropins are nice, I love them too. Though, with a couple exceptions, there are 2 drawbacks to P60s. First it is almost completely Cree XRE based right now.There are only a couple SSC dropins out there. Second, and probibly a reason there are fewer SSC dropins is they heat up and cook the LED without good thermal contact. But both of these points are minor for me.