ZT-0350, BM-755, CS-AK47 ????

[kramer5150]

Can someone help me out? I was wondering if someone could compare / contrast these 3 folders.... general pros/cons of each.

Zero Tolerance-0350
Benchmade-755
Coldsteel AK47

Being a Kershaw fan, I'm kind of leaning towards the ZT-0350. Is the BM-755 worth the added expense? How well does the CS-AK47 compare against the other two more $$$ blades?

Any major complaints about any of the three?

The problem I am having is that I have only handled the BM-755... and I am wondering how well the other two less $$$ blades compare.

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[csshih]

Steel Wise, (among these particular knives)

Benchmade arguably has the best, followed by Zero Tolerance, with Cold Steel last.

 

[The Sun]

I'd mark the CS off the list right off the batt. I'm not a big CS fan for quite a few reasons, most importantly quality, and material issues.

The 0350 is the winner far and away here IMHO. The 755 is a great knife for EDC chores but BM need to work the kinks out of it for that price range. The Ti and steel are wonderful, but I've had quite a few of them and every one has developed very noticeable vertical play at the lock-bar/tang interface....not very confidence inspiring.

My only complaint with the 0350 is the blade thickness, but that even has an upside when it comes to slicing. It's heavier than the 755, but lighter than the CS. That being said, it's not heavy at all.

It's blade profile accommodates easy access to the tip for controlled detailed cuts, and the modest re-curve pull every cut to the edge well, but is not pronounced enough to cause issues when sharpening.

I'm not a speedsafe guy so I allways diable the feature on my ZT's but that's not a dealbreaker for me.

Best if all it's inexpensive and if you break, or lose it it won't kill you to replace it.

I have a 0350 and a 0300 that I use as my shop knives and I beat the crap out of them. I've not had a problem with either yet for the year they've been well used.

 

[LUPARA]

If you're concerned about lock strength, I'd certainly check to see if the CS is a "triad lock". If it is...then I'd google search for a Fred Perrin video in which he throws a CS folder repeatedly into a board fence (that's after throwing 1000 times before the video was taken). I think it's in French, but he makes the comment that he "wished that he had designed the locking mechanism" since not many folders would have held together as well as the CS. Apparently the vibration and force produced by throwing and sticking causes locks to fail and other elements on the knife to fail quickly. Not sure which model Fred was using but it did have a triad lock and Fred is not prone to bullshitting. He was impressed.

That being said...I think the AK-47 is FUGLY.

 

[LUPARA]

Kramer,

Here's the CS video with Perrin throwing the Lawman folder.....

http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=95118&mpage=1#95118

 

[JCDLE]

I bought a Cold Steel knife once and immediately resold it. It just felt cheap to me.

Benchmade is a good brand, had a couple of autos from them, but got rid of them too. I think they are overpriced, but that's only my non-expert opinion. They are definitely quality knives, though.

No experience with Zero Tolerance knives.

 

[LUPARA]

JCLD,

I have a CS Kobun, and it feels cheap; but it's sharper than a razor (Aus 8) and it serves its purpose, (boot knife).

Apparently, throwing a knife into a board (like Perrin does) quickly sorts out the "weak" locks from the strong ones on folding knives. Something to do with locks being made to stop the knife closing rather than pulling double duty of being abused...nor sure; but there's got to be a very compelling reason why Perrin liked the triad lock. And, let's face it when buying a folder, it does pay to look for strength in locking mechanisms unless whittling is your favourite pastime.

Actually, I feel safer using an puky little Opinel knife with a rotary lock than with any tacticool knife knife on the market today! I would love to design a rotary locking knife with more beef to it and easier operation than an Opinel. Maybe there's one out there already??

 

[The Sun]

i have no issues with the tri-ad lock, but rather the rest of the knife (any of them). for the money you can get much better steel, with a better heat-treat, better handle material, better everything. I'm not impressed with any of the steel they use, or the way they make their knives.

i've taken A LOT of CS knives apart, that's what i do...i make and modify knives. i can give you specific examples why i say that if you like.

any well designed locking mechanism will perform well and not fail if it's executed properly. there's a lot more that goes into any liner, or frame locking mechanism than a metal on metal interface. there are specific reasons why badly designed liner and frame locks fail. one of which is the radius on the tang of the blade is wrong. that is a crucial point and a lot of consideration has to be taken into account when adding that radius. round stop-pin, flat stop-pin, thumbstud/stop-pin, thickness of the lock-bar, and where the lock-bar and tang interface.

some people get it right, and some not so right. the tri-ad lock is a good design but it's a lock-back and when comparing it to other lock-backs it out performs them. but it wouldn't out perform Spyderco's compression Ti frame-lock, or probably even their liner compression lock, or Benchmade's AXIS lock. likewise, it wouldn't out perform a well designed traditional frame-lock. and, you would get "better" steel in almost every circumstance unless you buy something from Smith&Wesson, or Fury. That is the whole reason why some of the CS knives are cheap as dirt...because you get what you pay for. Even with their $300+ dollar folders...why would you buy one when you could spend your money elsewhere and have a knife built you your specification for that price. if CS used better materials their knives would be more expensive. i would like it if they spent less time and money producing movies about how great their knives are and more money on better knives.

also, if you want absolute strength in the knife you carry everyday then carry a fixed blade...that's what i do. there's nothing to fail there, unless you snap the blade.

i personally (and everyone is different) am not a fan of lock-back knives. i don't like to use two hands with my daily carry folder, or any other folder for that matter.

i'm not out to bash CS, but i don't want anyone to get hurt either. all these videos hyping up the strength of their knives are great, but read their warranty and the fine print. they want to show you all that great stuff their knives will do but they won't back up the product if "you" try to do anything that will stress their knives to that point. all of that hype is produced in a controlled environment and CS is producing the video...seems kind of biased to me. sometimes you can believe the hype, sometimes you can't. every CS knife that i've owned, or has passed through my hands hasn't stood up to the hype. There are also models from other manufacturers that i wouldn't recommend or buy myself because of issues....like the 755. it has lock issues and that's a deal-breaker for me. that's just one example. Emerson's are another, i'm not a fan of their liner-locks. i've had more than a few fail, and i've have more than a few that were the best knives i ever owned, but it only takes one to diminish your confidence in a brand and i was always trained that you don't use a piece of gear unless you have absolute confidence in it under stress and you've tested the crap out of it to that end.

a great knife with exceptional value that i can never say enough about in the same price range is the Benchmade/HK Snody 14205. Great blade thickness (around .135"), great blade steel with a great heat-treat, and the great AXIS lock design with one handed open/close capability. the 14205 wins out over the Persidio's, the Grip's, and the other AXIS designs for me because of the blade thickness and shape. i'm not a fan of much else that BM offers other than a couple of their fixed blades and one or two other folder designs (i think the 755 would be excellent for EDC if the lock issue were resolves).

all that being said, if you spend a little more money in the ZT line you can get into the 0300 series and it's hard to find a better "hard use" production folding knife out there than that.

 

[LUPARA]

The Sun,

Thanks for the great expo...I've never trusted folding knives to do anything but slice bananas. My EDC's are fixed blades.

I do carry a CS VOYAGER folder clipped into my pocket though...just because I aquired it years ago and because I don't even notice it's there. The VOYAGER does feel "cheap" I will admit. It's o.k. for cutting hay-bale twine and not much of a big deal if it's misplaced or lost.

In reading your post, I wish that I would have asked some advice regarding folders before thinking about buying anything; since i have bought a few folders as gifts.

I'd like to buy just one folder that embodies lock strength; quality steel (materials) and good ergonomics coupled with good overall aesthetics.

What would be your choice SUN?
More than one example in different price ranges?

I'd appreciate a suggestion/s

 

[The Sun]

The ZT 0300 series are very stout knives. They have nice thick Titanium lock-bars and moderately thick S30V blades.

As I mentioned above, I'm a big fan of the Benchmade/HK Snody 14205. The AXIS lock is very, very strong, the blade is nice thick 154 CM, and overall fits the hand nicely. It's a very nice knife for daily carry and not overly heavy.

The Spyderco Paramilitary, or Paramilitary II are also a great daily carry knives with great ergonomics, thick S30V blade, and a super strong compression lock. They're very smooth, very light, and the build is strong overall.

Or you could wait for one of my folders to come out!

My perfect daily carry is the 3.5" Hinderer XM-18, and the XM-24 (that is until I get my folders done, hahaha! ). They are considerably more expensive, and can be difficult to find, but will stand up to anything you can throw at it.

Another extreme set of "ultimate" folders are made by Crusader Forge. .200" thick Ti frame-locks, non-lock presentation sides, and S30V blade...so all very thick. And you can have one made to order to your specs for right around $500.

There are a lot of great knives out there and everyone has different criteria in an EDC knife but the ones mentioned above are good examples of very strong EDC knives that fill a niche in just about everyone's pocket.

You can give me a call anytime at 210-544-3250 if you have anymore questions, or would like more recommendations etc.

Jeff

 

[kramer5150]

Great info gents... THANKS!! I am still undecided, weighing all the options. I haven't ruled out the tri-ad lock AK47 completely yet either. All 3 of these blades are way over-built, and probably more knife than I really "need".

Are there any other makes/models I should be considering along these lines:
-Thick belly blade profile (3-4 inch length is about ideal)
-Big meaty scales, firm grip handle design
-Durable lock mechanics
-AUS-8 or better steel

Weight or compactness is not a factor. I would prefer something heavier if it can double up as a blunt impact defensive weapon.

Does anyone have experience with the Kershaw Junkyard dog and the ZT-0500? The JYD II looks like a very good value. It has a composite blade material construction. Sandvik 13C26 spine and CPM-D2 edge. What are all your opinions on that? Why wouldn't they make the entire blade out of CPM-D2?

thanks again!!!

 

[QtrHorse]

I have the older style heavy AK47, ZT 0350 and the JYD composite blade.

I prefer to carry the 350 for my daily carry. I have no experience with the new AK47's but the one I have has just a tiny bit of side play when locked and I do not like that. I hate the clip on the JYDII but it is a decent knife, especially for the price. You can get one over on bladeforums.com for $45 compared to a new 350 for around $100.

I don't ever use my knife as a pry tool so I do not need the strength of a fixed blade for daily carry. For me, a medium sized fixed blade is just not an option. They draw more attention if you carry it in view and I don't like that either.

I included a some pictures so you can get an idea of the size differences. I included a ZT 0200 as well because someone metioned a ZT 0300 and the 200 and 300 are about the same thickness in the handles. I really like the 200 but it is huge, heavy and thick.

I wear a medium sized glove and the ZT 0350 and JYD II fit my hand very well but I like the wider handle of the ZT 0350. I like the blade profile on the ZT knives better than the JYD II.

I included the RC-4 so you could see what it might be like to carry a fixed 4in blade knife.

If weight is not an issue as you stated, the ZT 0200 or the ZT 0300 might be a good option but the 300 is an expensive knife. If I had to, I believe I could hammer the ZT 0200 through a vehicles roof and pry the metal apart and it would not break. I do not believe the JYD could do that without breaking.

I believe the reason they do not make the complete blade out of the edge material on the JYD II composite blade is because it would make the knife more expensive.




In this first picture from left to right, JYD II composite blade, ZT 0350, ZT 0200 and old style AK47.

In the second picture from left to right; JYD II composite blade, ZT 0350, old style AK47, ZT 0200 and a RAT/ ESEE RC-4.

In this last picture, you can see how thick the handles are on the JYD II, ZT 0350 and ZT 0200.

 

[kramer5150]

Wow... thanks for the detailed breakdown.

Can the pivot screw on that older AK47 be tightened to reduce the blade play?

Yes I didn't mention it but the ZT-0200 is also one of my considerations. Also looking at the ZT-0500

decisions decisions....:thinking:

 

[TwinBlade]

I tried to stay out of this thread. I really did. I am going to offer some insight here FWIW.

First off, "fighting" and "folder" are not a good mix. Anything that can fold back on you (I do not care how good the locking mechanism is...unless it is like a Barry Wood, it can fail) is never a good thing.

Second, let's get back to the basics. That being a knife should cut efficiently and effortlessly. Hollow grinds, past about 3/8" up the primary grind will start to bind. It is simply physics. Hollow grinds suck and no one out there can prove to me otherwise. They came about with the advent of the industrial revolution and being able to draw a steel blank through a set of rotating wheels with a machine and grinding a profile. It is cheaper, not better. Convex grinds have been around since Ancient Rome. There is a reason for that. An acceptable substitute is a flat grind which a lot of good folder manufacturers offer.

Third, a knife back in the day was meant to be used as a tool. It had to do a lot of tasks including being a backup weapon. We are not talking about the metro professional here, but a real woodsman and mountain man here. He didn't need some super tactical black coating. The truth is, coatings impede cutting. It is just a simple truth. They induce drag. It is the way it is. Coatings are primarily put on to cover finishing blemishes in steel. It is cheaper to do so. They also look like crap after a little bit of use. Not a lot of knife photos where coatings are shown actually show them in use or used. They all look really great. Most sit on a shelf for fear of getting the coating worn off. That is just another simple truth. A good satin finish on a knife edge is preferred. It will hide a fair amount of wear and scuffing.

Fourth, steels seem to be the rage nowadays, but not a lot of people have the skill to sharpen super steels like CPM M4 and ZDP-189. Good, simple carbon steels are not a bad thing. They resist chipping and are easy to sharpen, while holding a working edge for plenty long time.

Fifth, lets talk weight here. The knives mentioned in the OP are very beefy, chunky and cumbersome.

Sixth, When it comes to fighting, how tough are humans? Really? Be honest here. We are as fragile and thin skinned as it gets. A wobbly $2 steak knife will carve a person up and stab as deep as anything needed to hit vitals. That is just a fact.

My suggestion is to carry a good handgun in concealed fashion if you are anticipating seeing rough urban action, and I would also suggest staying away from the areas that you expect to need to carry a knife. A knife really makes a poor defense weapon when it comes right down to it. I would rather take a baseball bat or long pipe to a fight than a knife. I would also choose a concealed .22 rimfire to a knife as well.

My opinion would be to look at the Spyderco Military, Paramilitary or Caly 3.5 before any of the mentioned knives. They are well made, flat ground, ergonomically friendly (as far as folders go) and far slimmer and easier to carry.

 

[QtrHorse]

I tried to stay out of this thread. I really did. I am going to offer some insight here FWIW.

I didn't realize we were talking about using these knives in a fight.

I will be 100% honest, I never want to be cut again by a knife. It hurts like a B to get cut and it's not a good feeling knowing someone can just as easily cut you as you could them if you both had a knife.

These days, I would rather run or shoot them.

I do not carry my knife as a weapon. I carry it to use as a tool of sorts.

To be honest, my previous carry knife was a cheap ($25) little Spyderco Persistence. It worked perfectly for what I use a knife for on most occasions and it did not bother me to abuse it because it was so cheap. I have a hard time really using my 350 for anything other than cutting paper, tape, rope and etc... because it would cost me $100 to replace if it was damaged badly.

 

[kramer5150]

Great feedback TB and QH, Thanks gents, your opinions are appreciated. I have re-worded my original post. Bad choice of words on my part.

 

[csshih]

Fourth, steels seem to be the rage nowadays, but not a lot of people have the skill to sharpen super steels like CPM M4 and ZDP-189. Good, simple carbon steels are not a bad thing. They resist chipping and are easy to sharpen, while holding a working edge for plenty long time.

I agree with this, but it seems most are too lazy to really maintain their blades.

zdp.... if you really can sharpen that up .... ohhhhh :naughty: :devil: it is scary sharp..

 

[kramer5150]

...To be honest, my previous carry knife was a cheap ($25) little Spyderco Persistence. It worked perfectly for what I use a knife for on most occasions and it did not bother me to abuse it because it was so cheap. I have a hard time really using my 350 for anything other than cutting paper, tape, rope and etc... because it would cost me $100 to replace if it was damaged badly.

Good advice... thanks. This is why I am still considering the CS AK47, and Kershaw JYD. I can buy 2-3 of them for the same $$$ as one of the others.

:thinking:

 

[kramer5150]

Question to the forum...
What are some carbon steel folders that are similar in construction to these?

:thinking:

 

[The Sun]

My opinion would be to look at the Spyderco Military, Paramilitary or Caly 3.5 before any of the mentioned knives. They are well made, flat ground, ergonomically friendly (as far as folders go) and far slimmer and easier to carry.

these knives were mentioned above. Along with the BM 14205 (also flat ground).

i agree with what you said about the way a knife is ground, but not so much with your thoughts on sharpening super steel. As far as my personal knives go i never let them get dull to begin with and that's the key with any steel. There aren't too many folders out there with 1095, 5160, or any other high carbon steel that's worth buying. There are plenty of high quality fixed blades that do incorporate high carbon and letting them get dull and trying to re-sharpen them is no walk in the park either (especially if they're heat treated properly). I make and modify knives for a living, none of this is really a problem for me because i can re-profile a knife in seconds......but i rarely have to. i maintain the edges of my knives and 95% of the time its with a Spyderco Sharpmaker with the rods is comes with...no ultra fine, or diamond....just white and grey. i don't own, or make any folders that use any non "super steel" and a few passes on the sharpmaker fix them right up. the whole point to that though is with the "super steels" you have to maintain them less often.

it will always take effort to maintain an edge no matter what kind of steel you buy, it's just a part of owning a knife. any steel will dull, and will need to be sharpened. what makes the biggest difference is how far gone the edge is when you decide to re-sharpen.

as far as fighting folders go, there's no such thing. they can be great backup knives to get you out of a tight spot if you're primary weapon is lost, or malfunctions, but that's it. a knife is a tool, not to mention training is key. even a firearm in untrained hands isn't a weapon.