dont the napster itunes and the others worry about this

raggie33

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dont they worry about people who just use the line out port from pc to record the music and have it for free and non drm?id never do that but i was just thinking about they should ban mp3 player that have the abilty to record from line out
 

drizzle

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If I understand you right raggie, what you are describing is recording from the analog signal which is legal. They only worry about digital copying.
 

raggie33

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lol if its legal then im going to do it.i have a music service i can listen to all the music i want for 10 bucks per month and this mp3 player records when it heres tune then it shuts off so ill just cue up a bunch a tunes the quilty should be decent i have a decent sound card
 

paulr

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I think there are ways to do that without messing with analog capture or line out. You can directly get the sound card input as a wav file. It's a nuisance of course since the capture is in real time, i.e. it takes an hour to record an hour of music. Compare that to copying mp3 files on hard disk: you can copy an hour's worth in a few seconds.
 

IsaacHayes

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so napster and itunes you pay to download music but can't copy it to other places? So it's like proprietary format or something? Then what's the point of paying to download it? I don't get it..
 

paulr

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I think he's talking about DRM downloads. Yes it's in a special format that you can only load into one portable player at a time, or play on your PC while it's connected to a server logged into your account. I refuse to have anything to do with DRM but apparently that industry is doing pretty well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management
 

BB

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It may sound weird--but, yes Hollywood, is attempting to...

Plug the Analog Hole:

But the most disturbing pieces of the Status Report comes later in the document. The second section, "Plugging the Analog Hole," reveals Hollywood's plan to turn a generic technology component, the humble analog-to-digital convertor, into a device that is subject to the kind of regulation heretofore reserved for Schedule A narcotics. Analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) are the building blocks of modern digital technology. An ADC's job is to take samples of the strength (amplitude) of some analog signal (light, sound, motion, temperature) at some interval (frequency) and convert the results to a numerical value. ADCs are embedded in digital scanners, samplers, thermometers, seismographs, mice and other pointer devices, camcorders, cameras, microscopes, telescopes, modems, radios, televisions, cellular phones, walkie-talkies, light-meters and a multitude of other devices. In general, ADCs are generic and interchangeable -- that is, a high-frequency ADC from a sound-card is potentially the same ADC that you'll find in a sensitive graphics tablet.

Hollywood perceives ADCs as the lynchpin of unauthorized duplication. No matter how much copy-control technology is integrated into DVDs and satellite broadcasts, there is always the possibility that some Internet user will aim a camcorder at the screen, always the shadowy fan at the concert wielding a smuggled digital recorder, always the audiophile jacking a low-impedance cable into a high-end stereo. These bogeymen plague Hollywood, and each one uses an ADC to produce unauthorized copies.

Accordingly, the report calls for a regimen where "watermark detectors would be required in all devices that perform analog to digital conversions." The plan is to embed a "watermark" (a theoretical, invisible mark that can only be detected by special equipment and that can't be removed without damaging the media in which it was embedded) in all copyrighted works. Thereafter, every ADC would be accompanied by a "cop chip" that would sense this watermark's presence and disable certain features depending on the conditions.

This is meant to work like so: You point your camcorder at a movie screen. The magical, theoretical watermark embedded in the film is picked up by the cop-chip, which disables the camcorder's ADC. Your camcorder records nothing but dead air. The mic, sensing a watermark in the film's soundtrack, also shuts itself down....
...
Unintended Consequences

It's outrageous that Hollywood would demand a law that intentionally breaks technology so that it can't be used in lawful ways, but the unintended consequences of this regime are even more bizarre.

Virtually everything in our world is copyrighted or trademarked by someone, from the facades of famous sky-scrapers to the background music at your local mall. If ADCs are constrained from performing analog-to-digital conversion of all watermarked copyrighted works, you might end up with a cellphone that switches itself off when you get within range of the copyrighted music on your stereo; a camcorder that refuses to store your child's first steps because he is taking them within eyeshot of a television playing a copyrighted cartoon; a camera that won't snap your holiday moments if they take place against the copyrighted backdrop of a chain store such as Starbucks, which forbids on-premises photography because its fixtures are proprietary works.

You may think that the above "analog plug" is something that will never happen... Well a smaller version of Image Control has been in effect for, at least, several years (articles are from January 2004):

Adobe Software Adds Image Protection: (google cache)

Adobe Systems Inc. acknowledged Friday it quietly added technology to the world's best-known graphics software at the request of government regulators and international bankers to prevent consumers from making copies of the world's major currencies.

The unusual concession has angered scores of customers.

Adobe, the world's leading vendor for graphics software, said the secretive technology "would have minimal impact on honest customers." It generates a warning message when someone tries to make digital copies of some currencies.

The U.S. Federal Reserve and other organizations that worked on the technology said they could not disclose how it works and would not name which other software companies include it in their products. They cited concerns that counterfeiters would try to defeat it.
...
A Microsoft Corp. spokesman, Jim Desler, said the technology was not built into versions of its dominant Windows operating system.

Rival graphics software by Taiwan-based Ulead Systems Inc. also blocks customers from making copies of currency.

Experts said the decision by Adobe represents one of the rare occasions when the U.S. technology industry has agreed to include third-party software code into commercial products at the request of government and finance officials.
...
Kevin Connor, Adobe's product management director, said the company did not disclose the technology at the request of international bankers. He said Adobe may add the detection mechanism to its other products.

Hp Printers with Currency Block:

I did some investigating on my own computer and discovered that HP has also been shipping currency anti-copying software in their printer drives since at least the summer of 2002. I have an HP 130 photo printer and found the string "http://www.rulesforuse.org" embedded in the driver.

According to a few newsgroup messages posted in 2002 and 2003, folks are
seeing this URL printed out when they attempt to print images of certain
types of bills. An HP printer with this anti-copying technology only prints
out an inch of a currency image before aborting the print job.

Here is a list of HP printers which appear to have this anti-copy technology
embedded in their Windows printer drivers:

HP 130
HP 230
HP 7150
HP 7345
HP 7350
HP 7550

Doing wide spread analog copy protection is probably not going to be easy--but that does not mean that there aren't folks out there trying to get it done...

-Bill
 

drizzle

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Amazing stuff BB!

It looks like the sound recording part is aimed at recordings that shouldn't be made at all, like bootleg concert recordings. But what a screwy idea to try to go after a part of the technology that isn't even necessary to make the bootlegs.

AFAIK, digitizing analog media for personal use comes under the Fair Use concept. I even saw a product for sale that used this idea to make copies of DVD's. It "played" the DVD getting an analog signal then re-digitized the signal and burned a DVD. They claimed it was completely legal just as making a VCR tape would be. It sounds right to me.
 

BB

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Now that the US does not manufacture any of our major consumer electronics--the copy protection schemes are really in the control of Mainland China... Now the major center for media piracy.

Nice kind of symmetry... The US Government uses exporting of jobs / free trade as a version of foreign aid... Hollywood and Lawyers take over the government (regarding copyrights and extending them from a couple decades to something like 100 years) and now they lose the ability to control piracy via hardware/manufacturers because of government encouraged outsourcing...

China cracked DVD's, games, game consoles, etc. are all over in China.

And my pet peeve--Region controls on DVD's... Hey, I own the DVD (from the US or from China)--but I cannot play a region 7 DVD on a region 1 DVD player... So, I just go to the "Asian" part of town and buy an "all region" off brand DVD player for $40 (plus it auto-magically converts between NTSC/PAL). And the "legit" electronics guys (Toshiba, Sony, et. al.) are the guys that are out of luck on any future sales to me.

Of course, Sony as a Beta VCR company 20+ years ago got the "Fair Use" doctrine in law--and now as Sony Entertainment, they are the ones trying to get that law thrown out.... Another nice symmetry.

-Bill
 

Brighteyez

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You can indeed record the current analog output from MP3 players if you wish. It's a time consuming process that must be done in real time, edit the recording to break out the tracks if your recording application does not do that, and then enter the ID3 tag information (recommended, though not necessary). Overall, for most people it's more trouble than it's worth, but for those who have a lot of time on their hands and don't have (or won't spend the money) for legitimate versions, it's a means of getting an analog recording though it probably won't equal the quality of the original version.

raggie33 said:
dont they worry about people who just use the line out port from pc to record the music and have it for free and non drm?id never do that but i was just thinking about they should ban mp3 player that have the abilty to record from line out
 

rinali

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I thought the Ipod had hardware that crippled anything that wasn't downloaded directly from thier Itunes site. I didn't think it would play anything but Itune stuff, not even songs I ripped off my own CD's.
 

James S

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rinali, you've got it backwards. The iPod will play any non-drmed stuff, mp3, mp4, aiff, wav, whatever, but only an ipod can play music purchased from the itunes store. You can't use one of the subscription services with an iPod, and you can't use itunes with a different player, thats all. Though you can burn as many CD's of your music as you like and play it on several computers.

there are several ways to remove the DRM from any of these systems. The simplest is to just burn your itunes stuff to a CD and then re-rip. Since it's not really going into analog you dont loose any quality. If you rip back to AAC format then you're really not loosing anything. Since you're decoding and re-encoding to the same lossy format with the same apple codec used to create it in the first time, it looses nothing. re-ripping to mp3, or a different codec does leave holes though, if you're doing this use AAC.
 

jurjan

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Raggie,
i would suspect that your 10 buck, listen all you want music supplier
does not like you recording the songs. even in analog form.
now, i'm not an american, but as far as i know, fair use is only intended for
backing up music (and the like) you have bought.
what you have is the right to listen to music, just like a radio.
if i'm correct, this does not allow you to record it, and replay it later
on another machine, media or whatever.

once again, i'm not an american, so i could be very wrong.

have a nice day
jurjan
 

raggie33

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jurjan said:
Raggie,
i would suspect that your 10 buck, listen all you want music supplier
does not like you recording the songs. even in analog form.
now, i'm not an american, but as far as i know, fair use is only intended for
backing up music (and the like) you have bought.
what you have is the right to listen to music, just like a radio.
if i'm correct, this does not allow you to record it, and replay it later
on another machine, media or whatever.

once again, i'm not an american, so i could be very wrong.

have a nice day
jurjan
i am not recording anything i dont have the time or patiace but im sure people who wanted the music could do it.will need better sound cards and etc etc i bet
 

paulr

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Jurjan, people in the US have the right to record music from the radio or from their friends' CD's and so forth, as long as it's done privately and noncommercially. The law specifying this is the Audio Home Recording Act (AHRA) which is from around 1990. The RIAA gets compensated for this by a tax collected on the sales of blank audio CD's and digital recording tape. There was a big court case called RIAA v. Diamond that established that the AHRA extends to digital audio players (the Diamond Rio was a forerunner of the Ipod). That was enough to convince some investors and business people (who presumably were not idiots) to start a company called Napster, which was basically an advertising-funded search engine that let people trade music with each other over the Internet. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, another big court case called RIAA v. Napster established that the AHRA does not extend to internet distribution, I think because the court decided that Napster was a mass distribution scheme and therefore not "private" as required by the AHRA language. Napster was shut down by the court and went out of business, though it was well-liked enough by the public that its brand name was still valuable and was later revived as a DRM subscription service operated by record companies. But anyway, it is perfectly legal in the US to record music from the radio and if the record company doesn't want you to do that, they should not broadcast it into your house without your permission.
 
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James S

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right, making mix tapes or recording an album for a friend is still legal. At least theoretically. But they are making it harder and harder for you to do that sort of thing. Which is why I currently dont want anything to do with those subscription services. The music I've purchased from itunes has DRM that limits how many computers I can have able to play it on at once. Currently the number is 5. That lets me put it on my desktop machine, my laptop, my wifes laptop, my house server for playing through the stereo and still have one to spare. It does not limit how many mp3 players I can put it on at any given time. It does not limit my ability to burn to regular audio CD. I can deauthorize and reauthorize computers as necessary. So it adds a step, but otherwise does not keep me from using the music or listening to it around here. Some of those other services are a pain in the neck. And streaming is right out, need to be online to listen to your music? I dont think so. I can burn as many CD's of mixes of my music here as I like for anybody I like, as long as I dont sell it to them :)

And only the CDR blanks marked specifically for music have that "I'm going to steal music with this CDR" tax on them. They are otherwise identical to regular data CD's except that data cdr's are cheaper. So unless you're stealing music and want to pay the music industry under the table that way, just use data CDR's.

What would be interesting would be if you got served for downloading music, but then burned it to the music CDRs, would the courts consider that you have paid for it? That would be an interesting case to try, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it myself though...
 
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