The SureFire Effect: Why not buy the competition?

The funny thing is, I don't think SureFire has any competition. SureFire has been commanding the high-end, over-spec'd market since they began mass manufacturing. The fit and (basic) function of their incandescent line exceeds what the vast majority of thier consumers need. SureFire tries to make thier lights as dependable as the weaponry that they are intended to accompany in law enforcement and military applications. That is the closest anology I can think of and I think it is appropriate for this DOD supplier.

Nevertheless, there are tens of thousands of consumers willing to pay top dollar for what they percieve as "the best" even if they don't need the best.

I acknowledge that there are thousands of people in first-tier, safety-critical jobs who's life depends on their equpment working right every time. I always advocate that they buy most dependable, good performing light they can get. There's almost nowhere else for them to go but SureFire. However, if you were a law enforcement officer, or a Marine, would this include the U2 Ultra? Would you trust a firearm with a quality record like the U2 Ultra? Yet even informed consumers like us on CPF, having read dozens of posts about horrible defects, and 4-month warranty claims are still clamoring to buy that crappy light. I understand it, yet I'm still baffled.

Apparently, like fine art, the value of a SureFire light in the eyes of the second-tier consumer is abstract, and not connected with the actual utility of the item. I call it the SureFire effect.

That's why the next best maker is not willing to incur the costs of making a product with such strict tolerances. A large manufacturer without the SureFire name could not sell even a better product for the same or lower price. They would not be perceived as equal or better because they don't have the reputation and recognition of SureFire. They would be considered way overpriced, and anybody with more money than brains would impulsively buy the SF instead.

Wolf Eyes, G&P, and others make lights with similar or better performance, but not the over-spec'd build quality. Nevertheless, consumers will buy a lesser performing SureFire light for way more money just to get additional quality that they don't really need. It's the SureFire effect. It's the Coach purse, the Rolex watch, -a status symbol?

I set my 10 year old, $20 timex watch to the atomic clock at the US Naval Observatory. It has been dead-nuts accurate for over three months now. I could have paid $1500 for a Rolex, but it couldn't perform any better.

Broken filaments aside, I have never had a MagLite fail on me, -ever. Not to say that MagLites are as high quality as SureFire, far from it, but a $270 light would not have served me any better because my $20 light hasn't failed. Some people's have, but not mine. I trust it completely. From a reliability standpoint (not beam quality) why would I pay $270 for a better built light? Vanity?

I am not especially well-off, and I'm sure my attitude would be a little different if I could afford any light I want, but I am forced to be a lot more practical. I will buy top quality tools for applications where I use them professionally. I guess that makes me a tier-one tool user, but I wouldn't have a $15000 cabinet full of Snap-On tools if I only tinkered from time to time unless money were no object. And then, I would be subject to the criticism of someone like me.

I admire SureFire lights, -I really do. But I don't anticipate ever buying one, because I can get more performance with adequate reliability for far, far less money. That may change if my financial condition takes a big bull run, and I'll eat crow -with a silver spoon!

Bernie
__________________
If it's worth driving, it's worth overdriving!

Interesting tid bit here—

These things are true for the top echelon of any sort of product. Sure they're the "best", but at 50% the cost you can still get 90% of the performance. We might have small companies like HDS or customs like McGizmo that can outperform them, but when it comes to large companies (like ones that advertize in Popular Mechanics), Surefire is the top of the heap. They're better (generally speaking) than Pelican, Streamlight, Mag, or other lights commonly seen in the hands of "professionals". While those lights are probably good enough to do the job, there's some who are willing to pay the extra money for something a little better.

I don't know if I'm arguing a point here or not.

What I can say though is for the rest of us (non-professional enthusiasts), it's an extension of our hobby. A $30 Timex might tell the time, but a Seiko looks nicer. A Surefire is another toy or piece of man jewelry.

Good points, and the comparison to Snap-On is apt. I am a tool snob, and this sort of discussion is also hashed with regards to Snap-On. Some people like to call them Snap-off. I have a few Snap-On odds and ends. I've always been very pleased with their tools, but they are too expensive for me to buy on a normal basis, tool snob and all. I am a tool snob precisely because I use tools on a regular basis, and I've gotten tired of cheap and inferior tools. I can't name any one supplier of mechanics tools that is superior in every way. I like PB Baumann for screwdrivers and a few striking tools, Craftsman is my normal socket/wrench tools, I have a few Snap-On, Armstrong, Elora, Wiha, and a few I've forgotten. They all seem to have their sweet spots. Snap-On makes the nicest sockets I've ever seen. Armstrong makes some nice wrenches as does Snap-On and Elora and Proto and I think I've made my point. My watch is swiss, but it is a Swatch, and it keeps time better than any other watch I've owned. I can appreciate the nice watches out there, but for me, $100 is the limit. A plain jane Casio would do just as well. I'm also a machinist, and boy, one can really lust for a Hardinge or a Monarch or Bridgeport or Lagun. But I sure can't afford one. I also have a soft spot for Starrett and Mitutoyo. These are some of the best tools money can buy, anywhere on this earth (of course, there is always the Deckel and Schaublin fans). Some times I read the same thing about them, they cost too much, the one I got was defective, etc. and so on. It is like any other mass produced product. I sure there are bad Hondas, Porsches, and such out there as well. **** Cheney could have shot a lawyer with a much cheaper shotgun, but hey, it is his money.

I totally agree with FirstDsent. But isn't that a trend in most branches of marketing? Take a look at computers, the last few extra (G/M)Hz out of the processor will always cost the most. Same goes for cars, the few extra HP you get from special editions or aftermarket tuningparts will drain your wallet the fastest.

When you say Rolex will be no better at keeping time you underestimate the innaccuracy of mechanical watches. My Rolex needs correcting every week having lost around two minutes but then accuracy is not the reason for anybody buying expensive watches, its mainly for the fun of having something fully mechanical and it being put together by hand.

I do buy from the competition, but:
In some areas I think Surefires are the best on the market. The warranty is outstanding, if slow for some. I haven't found a flashlight that does what my U2 does, I have a HDS and prefer a selector dial insead of multiple clicks.

Mine had tailcap problems and a $200+ light should not have that, but they fixed it fast and at great expense for themselves. This tailcap is afaik the same as the one used in the L5 and maybe others we rarely hear issues about.
My replacement clickie is the new 4-tab version and seems very good and has worked perfectly.
I don't think many people realize how extensive the numerous returns, repairs and replacements are for a company. So they will probably fix issues with their lights in order to avoid negative PR, loss of sales and expenses with returns.

I only own this one Surefire because I prefer some of their competitors for other uses. I use Wolfeyes incans because I prefer their ability to use high capacity Li-ions, none of Surefires small leds can imho compete with the HDS EDC lights and their range of diving lights is more or less non-existant.
In our army (don't know about US) SFs can choose their gear pretty freely and I've seen quite a few SF lights on and off weapons.

High price doesn't mean one avoids QC issues and bad designs. Look at how many recalls high end cars have...

Personally, as far as Surefires go, I own and use a Surefire 6P, and love it. I like the others from Surefire, but while they're quality, I don't have an interest in them. I just sorta have to get the light that clicks something in my brain, and those others fail to do so. I don't consider the 6P, though, to be really high priced (though not really good for the average consumer) which is why they offer the G2. Of course, though not as high quality, Brinkmann makes a nice light that can give it a run for it's money... and for under $20.

I have no doubt that many buy the light for the name, without examining it's capabilities, or looking for alternatives. I have to admit that I, myself, took the name into consideration when trying to decide what to get, but also the warranty. But I'm very pleased with my purchase.

jgdawes said:

When you say Rolex will be no better at keeping time you underestimate the innaccuracy of mechanical watches. My Rolex needs correcting every week having lost around two minutes but then accuracy is not the reason for anybody buying expensive watches, its mainly for the fun of having something fully mechanical and it being put together by hand.

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Your Rolex needs tuning then. Any decent mechanical watch can be regulated to be within 3 seconds a day easily.

The problem with any Timex vs Rolex analogy is that we are comparing two different technologies. If Timex made a mechanical watch, it would definitely be outperformed by the Rolex.

Just MHO, but the only thing I feel SF has over the others is beam quality. I would be more interested in them if they went more rechargeable like SL does. Yes they make nice lights, but as also has been pointed out, alot of that also goes with personal taste.
I've gotten the most use out of Arc AAA that I bought used years ago.

I'm still waiting for someone to do repeated 50 foot drop tests with their SF ....

webley445 said:

Just MHO, but the only thing I feel SF has over the others is beam quality. I would be more interested in them if they went more rechargeable like SL does. Yes they make nice lights, but as also has been pointed out, alot of that also goes with personal taste.
I've gotten the most use out of Arc AAA that I bought used years ago.

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The beam quality statement entirely true but the lamp assemblies are reasonably priced unlike the entire lights.

Thurmond

"Would you trust a firearm with a quality record like the U2 Ultra?"

You have access to SF's numbers for lights made, scrapped in QA, shipped, returned, repaired, etc.?

Actually, I've had out-of-the-box QA problems with Colt, S&W, and Walther pistols while my SF gear has worked perfectly. Based on MY (statistically invalid) experience ALL pistols are garbage until broken in, fed a particular ammo diet, or repaired, while SF's stuff is ALWAYS perfect.

And of course, that's nonsense.

I'm a watch nut myself and I can tell you Rolex is far from the 'best' watch in the really high-ends of the watch industry. If Casio/Timex were a Toyota (cheap, simple, fuel-efficient & reliable), then Rolex would be a Mercedes (prestigeous, expensive, not quite so mass-produced but not that limited either), a Patek Philippe would be a Ferrari (some Patek watches are more common like the 360 Modena and some of their watches more exclusive like the Enzo), an A. Lange & Sohne would be a Bentley (some of the finest hand-manufactured cars, still made very sincerely despite being bought my VW), a Ulisse Nardin would be a Porsche etc... But bottom line is, I believe most of us get the point FirstDsent was trying to make.

Anyway, back on topic, there are many interesting facets about the behaviour of SureFire's non-contracted customers, especially fans like us. One point I've noticed which is not yet mentioned in this thread: Some of SureFire's products are way too specialised, particularly their high-powered incandescent range.

They are specialised to the piont that they are not even suitable or practical for a lot of 'average' people! In some cases, they're not even basically feasible! How many people have been looking for a rechargeable solution for the M6 HOLA? Even for the LOLA, a rechargeable option wouldnt' hurt. Some waiters get paid less than an M6 can eat in CR123 costs.

What about my M6? Self-defence as an impact weapon and very short illumination usage, mosty just for periodic checks and the rest of the time for fun. My C3? I added an extender and turned it into a rechargeable flashlight which I call the C4UD, "Ugly-Duckling" or CRUD because of the ugly rubber tennis-grip I wrapped around its body to protect my palms from the heat-build-up of 30 or more minutes of continous usage. Supposedly, the C3 wasn't designed for continuous , 40 min to 1 hour usage. It's too hot for me to hold for long in stock-form.

So that's two examples of SureFire's flashlights being too specialised, at least for my usage patterns. But so what if some SureFires are too "impractical"? Fans like me will find a way to make them practical. My C4UD and future HDM6 are nothing like what SureFire intended them to be! It's just like how a RUF is not really a Porsche anymore! Not with all the customisation & modification, accessory add-ons, after-market accessory add-ons etc... There are a substantial number of SF fans here who use parts and modifications not recommended by SureFire and I'm one of them. Many people are satisfyied with thier off-the-shelf SureFires but I'm not on of them when it comes to my C3 or M6. I'm perfectionistic but yet, my stock Gladius is perfect for me. I wouldn't want to change anything about it!

At the end of all that?! I still love my SureFires... Their "impracticality" can be overlooked when one considers their other, more positive attributes. Mind you, clever marketing also plays it part. I'm a victim. I know and admit it but I still like their lights. Your milage may vary of course.

This is a very interesting thread! I hope I don't get flamed. I was innocent enough in my comments right?

My person view on buying Surefires: Their high-end lights have very little competition and what competition there is isn't any cheap. Their lower end (relatively speaking) lights have lots of competition, but a lot of it is much worse quality and none has the same interchangability. I'm not a fan of SF's overpricing, and the lack of QC in some LED models and clickies. But I'll probably never buy any of the Chinese knockoffs because I don't like the ripped off design or the contruction. On the other hand, I have no problem with original designs by reputable companies. However, as a Streamlight Scoprion owner I still liked my 6P better.

Regarding the U2/gun comparison--I have no idea what the actual figures are, but if you had a large, popular gun message board with this many posts of people having serious issues with a pistol or rifle, that model's name, and possibly that of the company, would be mud. It _has_ happened in the past and no one kept buying fancy-but-faulty guns thinking they'd have the flaws fixed after buying them.

Sticky said:

I'm still waiting for someone to do repeated 50 foot drop tests with their SF ....

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Done, multiple times. Ask JonSidneyB and others what they did to a Beast (it still worked, BTW). Size15 has pics of bezels struck with axes and stuff. Fun times. Ginseng fed his L4 through a snow plow machine... you guessed it: no problems later on (his story is on the SF site, as well as here somewhere). I could go on.

I'm more than happy with my Pila lights. Would I consider a SF incandescent? Sure, I like the C2, but why get one when I already have 2 Pila lights?

When I was researching lights, I went in with an open-mind, and went to ALL of the review sites, read the forums, went into users who knew their stuff and looked at what their favorite lights were, and made my choice after that. Surefire happened to be that choice. Even though they may have the marketing skills to project themselves as the BEST flashlight maker, it still stands that their lights, as far as the opinions of the review sites and respected CPF'rs really are, indeed, the best.

My view is that with SF, you are getting a level of reputation and performance for the $$. Like many other goods, there will be those items that will exceed and fall short of it at any given price. Many of us will not stress the light to it's design limits so these lights will serve us well for a long time.

The way I use the HDS U60, it will likely outlive me and I could say that for the Mag's still rolling around my benches too.

...I like Surefire lights. I own three of them. I am glad that Wolf Eyes lights were mentioned in this thread. I own four Wolf Eyes. From what I see they are as good as Surefire lights. They have better performance (brighter). They have equal or better beam quality. They are built tough and are very relaibale as a result of this toughness. They have better styling, though this is pureful subjective. I have not scratched any of mine but I suspect that the hard anodize finsih on them is not as tough as the HA finish on Surefires. They are very modular. They have recharcheable options. They cost between one third and one half as much as comparable Surefire lights. I am sure that Surefire has the lead over everyone in big caliber weapons mountable lights but I would not hesitate to recommend a Wolf Eyes before a Surefire for carry by a LEO or soldier. Oh, almost forgot. Wolf Eyes sheaths are not anywhere near as nice as Surefire sheaths but they are priced at about a third the price of Surefire sheaths.
jc

I wanna see SF have their Uber-lights pass my Toddler Test. I've got 3 little flashaholics, and I bet the SF wouldn't last a week before it was reduced to a partially complete pile of components! Anybody wanna bet SF won't take me up on my Toddler Test offer?