Question re. E2E and safety

I've been browsing this forum for a couple of days now, because I'm thinking about buying a Surefire E2E and wanted some more info about it/the alternatives.
Now these threads start popping up about exploding 123 cells and I find this very scary.
I have a few specific questions that I couldn't find answers to in those threads :

1) has this ever happened with an E2E as far as you know?

2) I understand I shouldn't mix batteries, but what if the light is in my pocket for a long time, sometimes used, until charge of batteries is very low, would this be a dangerous situation?

Thanks for any info,

John

Hi John, welcome to CPF!

1) Not that I'm aware of. And even if it had, I would not be concerned about continuing to use the ones I have.

2) No. There is no link between these reported incidents we are trying to investigate and simply using the flashlight.

In my opinion there is NO SAFETY ISSUE regarding the use of CR123A battery powered flashlights when sensible battery and flashlight care is used.

Here are some pointers:
Store your batteries in the cool and dry, out of direct sunlight.
Do not allow your batteries to be short-circuited, crushed or damaged.
Do not mix brands, or news & old batteries.

Ensure that your flashlight is disabled for transportation and storage.

Stop using the flashlight when the light output has descreased significantly.
Do not leave the flashlight switched on and unattended.

Use only quality assured brands such as American-made (UL tested etc) brands such as SureFire SF123A or Duracell DL123A batteries (or the batteries in accordance with the flashlight operating instructions.

Don't cut corners [to save money].

I hope this helps?

Al

These battery explosions are very rare. But that doesnt mean it can't happen.

I dont think it really matters if its a E2E or not. If the batteries are bad it aint going to be pretty. Thousands of people have and use cr123 batteries. Like I said its rare, but if you're that afraid then don't buy the E2E.

More likely hundreds and hundreds of thousands of CR123A powered flashlights in use having used many millions of CR123A batteries.
The reported incidients would likely not reach 500.

These problems are very rare, and will likely only ever occur when you mix batteries (brands, old/new). Different voltages, amperages, and capacities are what can cause things like reverse-charging, pole reversing, and shorts, which are what can cause venting, flames, or even explosions. As long as you keep your batteries paired out of the box, things should be fine. There's always the off chance of a dud cell, but if you stay with quality brands, you should be fine.

A CR123a has as much a chance of exploding as just about any other battery cell out there.

As long as you follow the basic rules when using batteries (ie. dont mix different cells, dont leave in the sun) you will be fine.

As I've said before, issues that arise on these forums tend to sound worse than they actually are. If people dont have problems, they dont talk about it, but the 3 or 4 people that have these problems will voice their concerns, making it feel like these problems are common occurances.

This is especially true regarding the CR123a cells. The occasional reports of battery explosions are far outweighed by the hundreds of people who use them with no problems every day on these forums.

Just look at it this way - If CR123as were really dangerous and unreliable, would military and law enforcement personel recommend and use these lights?

On the E2E - this is a great light. Bright enough for day to day needs and the ability to use the KL1 LED head for 3 hours of regulated white light or KL4 LED for a bright flood. Not to mention the variety of Lamp assemblies to suit every need. It was also a lot smaller than I expected.

Do yourself a favour and get it You wont regret it

Protaeus said:

A CR123a has as much a chance of exploding as just about any other battery cell out there.

As long as you follow the basic rules when using batteries (ie. dont mix different cells, dont leave in the sun) you will be fine.

As I've said before, issues that arise on these forums tend to sound worse than they actually are. If people dont have problems, they dont talk about it, but the 3 or 4 people that have these problems will voice their concerns, making it feel like these problems are common occurances.

This is especially true regarding the CR123a cells. The occasional reports of battery explosions are far outweighed by the hundreds of people who use them with no problems every day on these forums.

Just look at it this way - If CR123as were really dangerous and unreliable, would military and law enforcement personel recommend and use these lights?

On the E2E - this is a great light. Bright enough for day to day needs and the ability to use the KL1 LED head for 3 hours of regulated white light or KL4 LED for a bright flood. Not to mention the variety of Lamp assemblies to suit every need. It was also a lot smaller than I expected.

Do yourself a favour and get it You wont regret it

Click to expand...

I don't know about that...

A CR123 contains one of the highest energy densities of any of the cells out there, and as such, needs to be considered much more like a explosive like dynamite. They should be treated with care and respect, just like any other explosive.

Keep in mind, many battery failures go un-reported. Some times folks will post some photos on the web, but not much more happens. The experience of the extremely small group of hobbyists here on cpf is a very small cross section of 123 cell users.

Here is an example of a SureFire 9P (123 Lithium cells) that could have caused this fella to loose his eyesight, and he very nearly did:
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=132932


IMHO, there is an extreme safety hazard and risk of explosions/venting/flame when using Lithium 123 cells

This severe risk can be greatly reduced by the proper care and treatment and respect of the Lithium cells.

As far as safety, I spent 12 years in the Marine Corps, and we used all sorts of stuff that was quite dangerous, routinely...

Anyhow, consider there are what, 20,000 users here on cpf, and we have had more than six events of 123 based cells going gonzo on folks.

That puts the odds of an unfavorable event at 1 : 3,000

Thats pretty damn interesting if you think about it.


Yes, IMHO, Lithium 123 cells have most certainly earned the honor to be respected by all


But... I cannot recall any event off the top of my head, where a single 123 cell based flashlight exploded/vented/flamed on anyone. Something to consider.

The residual risk of using an E2e with SF123A batteries is that which remains after the potential safety hazards have been managed by ensuring that the control measures [as previously posted] are followed.

This is why I think "there is NO SAFETY ISSUE regarding the use of CR123A battery powered flashlights when sensible battery and flashlight care is used."

Al

I like mine no problems with it at all. I do change the batteries out when I notice they are dimming and make sure it is locked out before putting it in my pocket.
Topper

Thanks for the info so far.

I understand there is a safety issue, but it is very small if you take proper precautions.

That leads me to another question : are there any viable alternatives ?
(flashlight with comparable size / output, but another type of batteries)

John

NewBie said:

I cannot recall any event off the top of my head, where a single 123 cell based flashlight exploded/vented/flamed on anyone. Something to consider.

Click to expand...

I also couldn't find a single reported incident, neither here nor on the web. BTW, the same seems to apply to li-ion rechargeables as well, apart from some accidents that happened when charging cells all the problems I heard or read about involved multicell applications. So single 123 cell lights appear to be somewhat safer than multicell lights.

My own solution is not to use my 2-cell CR123 lights for the time being, at least not until it's become clear what the causes of these incidents were.

Hans

Hans said:

I also couldn't find a single reported incident, neither here nor on the web. BTW, the same seems to apply to li-ion rechargeables as well, apart from some accidents that happened when charging cells all the problems I heard or read about involved multicell applications. So single 123 cell lights appear to be somewhat safer than multicell lights.

My own solution is not to use my 2-cell CR123 lights for the time being, at least not until it's become clear what the causes of these incidents were.

Hans

Click to expand...

You are wise beyond your years. Such sanity is very rare these days.

Looks like you will not be receiving the Darwin award.


Seriously though, a little knowledge and precaution, will go a long way towards reducing the chances of these sorts of problems.


There was one Nuclear Power plant, where they outlawed SureFire flashlights, due to the 123 cells in them, where they had them fail, when it was just sitting in the locker, not even in use. The story is here on cpf, I think it was posted in 2003 or 2004.

I would be interested to know if anyone knows (Size15's) if the E-series, or any other aluminum Surefire lights, have been tested to contain a cr123 battery explosion. I'm sure if any light could contain it, Surefire would be one of the strongest.

I do wonder if these much safer NiMH packs could be dis-assembled for a much safer alternative:
http://www.2cr5.co.uk/start_about2cr5.html

dizzy said:

I would be interested to know if anyone knows (Size15's) if the E-series, or any other aluminum Surefire lights, have been tested to contain a cr123 battery explosion. I'm sure if any light could contain it, Surefire would be one of the strongest.

Click to expand...

No flashlight will be able to contain the explosion of a battery. It is like a bullet. Once the powder inside the bullet is ignited, the extreme pressure and heat contained in the small casing is going to break out. The same pricipal applies to batteries. One the batteries explode in the llight it will either blast the tailcap or the head of the light right off. When the explosion happens in a very small package( in this case a flashlight body) it wants out and will.

B.T.W. Dizzy, did you see one of the stickys in General Flashlight Disccusion?

One of them was about a PM6 exploding. You can see photos of the tailcap blowing off and busting through a wooden door. Check it out if you haven't.

NewBie said:

Anyhow, consider there are what, 20,000 users here on cpf, and we have had more than six events of 123 based cells going gonzo on folks.

That puts the odds of an unfavorable event at 1 : 3,000

Thats pretty damn interesting if you think about it.

Click to expand...

Theoretically, with those numbers every CPFer would have used 1 single CR123, that would mean they are all using single cell lights... And as stated before, there are no reports of cells exploding in single cell lights.... :laughing:


But now for a bit of a different calculation...

How many CR123 batteries have those 20000 CPFers used without problems before those 6 events happened? I just recently started using CR123 powered flashlights, and used about 16 batteries. Lets just say that only 10000 of the 20000 CPFers mentioned uses CR123 powered lights and that they have all used 16 batteries like me (which is probably a ridiculously low number).

that gives us 6 batteries exploding of 160000 used, a rate of 1 : 26666 and change... quite a bit different from the 1:3000 stated earlier...

But I think the CR123 use here on CPF might be a bit higher, which would give an even lower rate of exploding batteries.


By no means underestimate the power of these cells, but I think a lot of people are going just a slight bit paranoid over this whole exploding battery issue. CPF is a group where CR123 use is relatively high. So the number of accidents reported here will probably be a lot higher than in the rest of the CR123 consuming world. Not to mention that some of the things we use these cells for are way more demanding of the batteries than the equipment they were originally developed for (like cameras) which would also increase the risk.

Most things we do expose us to certain risks. If we drink hot coffee, we take the risk of getting burned, if we cut our food, we risk cutting ourselves, if we go outside we risk getting ran over by a bus. And we all keep drinking coffee, cut our food and go outside (well most of us anyway)...

So I don't see any reason to stop using CR123s Just respect the product, use common sense and if uncertain about cells, use them in a single cell light where the risks are even lower. And there is always the option to spend a few $ (or whatever your local currency is) on a good batterytester or multimeter.

Now that I'm done ranting .... Johnbo, go get yourself that E2E, it's a great light and you won't regret it

Common sense, caution, and education on proper usage of lithium batteries will go a long way as to preventing personal injury.
Same thing applies to driving an automobile-which I would consider to be MUCH more dangerous than using a multi 123 based flashlight.

Of all things that I do in the course of life, using lithium powered flashlights is way down the list of "most dangerous things" that I must deal with on a daily basis.

However, I am glad to learn and employ any and all safety precautions concerning safe usage of lithium batteries.

One thing for sure, I refuse to be overcome with fear and paranoia about flashlights exploding as long as I'm brave enough to drive to work every day.

I'd like to say THANK YOU to all you cpf'ers for the research you have done to better educate folks like me on this important issue. Keep up the good work!

MayCooper said:

Theoretically, with those numbers every CPFer would have used 1 single CR123, that would mean they are all using single cell lights... And as stated before, there are no reports of cells exploding in single cell lights.... :laughing:


But now for a bit of a different calculation...

How many CR123 batteries have those 20000 CPFers used without problems before those 6 events happened? I just recently started using CR123 powered flashlights, and used about 16 batteries. Lets just say that only 10000 of the 20000 CPFers mentioned uses CR123 powered lights and that they have all used 16 batteries like me (which is probably a ridiculously low number).

that gives us 6 batteries exploding of 160000 used, a rate of 1 : 26666 and change... quite a bit different from the 1:3000 stated earlier...

Click to expand...

I was talking about per cpfer, not per battery.

The odds are more like the 1:3000 that a given cpfer will have a 123 cell go boom on them.

Now... One could break this down another way, and remove all the cpfers that don't have 123 based lights, remove all the users with just have single cell 123 lights, and then the odds would be quite a bit lower, and even much more likely for that subset of cpfers to will have a multicell 123 Lithium light to go boom on them.

Though this is slightly off-topic, it seems like it would be pretty easy to make an emergency vent, in case pressures build.

I have been tempted to drill a tiny hole in our Tec-40's, which are loaded with lithiums and kept in the gloveboxes of our cars.

To maintain water resistance, I was considering filling the holes with hard wax, which would keep water out, and dislodge if pressures increased, allowing it to vent and preventing an explosion.

Maybe manufacturers could do something similar.

Though the failures appear to be somewhat rare, the pics I have seen were outright scary!