M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ... also explaining DC RMS

wquiles

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I recently finished my own M6-R pack from the M6-R LVR3I PWM regulators and other components that js (Jim) made available for sale here .

As shown in those links, these regulators by Willie Hunt use PWM (Pulsed Width Modulation) and a varying duty cycle (percentage of ON vs. OFF cycles) to regulate the equivalent DC voltage that incandecent volts require for optimum performance, plus the soft start provided by Willie also helps in prolonging the life of the bulb as the inrush currents on a cold filament are much smaller, as shown here .

After building my own pack, I studied the schematics that Willie provided on his web site and concluded (at least initialy) that changing R4 "should" lower/raise the regulated output voltage.

I contacted Willie by email and he replied (thanks much Willie !!!) that indeed, changing R4 does what I expected, but that it also lower/raises the set voltage for the warning pulses from a depleted battery (also included in Willie's LVR regulator).

I tried measuring the RMS or DC equivalent voltage with several of my meters and with the built-in RMS voltage measurement on my high-end Tek scope, but none measured properly the approx. 6.8V output. I asked for help in measuring the RMS voltage, and Willie added that only the true high-end meters like Fluke Model 89 or 189 do measure true-RMS on the DC voltage scale. Basically, most meters (like my Fluke M87) only measure "average" voltage on the DC scale and true RMS on the AC scale, so the measure of the LVR's output will always be wrong (too low).

Following his instructions, I was able to measure the output voltage (which in fact was 6.8 volts!), and I therefore proceeded to plan making changes to R4.

I have been asking for Jim's help in driving the MN20 better with the LVRi that he got from Willie Hunt. With Jim's advice (V approx 7.5-6 volts), and Willies' information, after some simple math and after looking at available surface mount resistor values, I decided to try R4=54.9K ohms ;)

Here is my always busy and over-spilling bench with the "patient" waiting its transplant:
IMG_6232.JPG



Here are the very small resistors used: both 1/10Watt and 1/8Watt. The HUGE black thing is the black button cover of a M*g light!:
IMG_6242.JPG


IMG_6243.JPG



Here is the patient with the "chest" still open after the transplant - will it survive the operation?:
IMG_6234.JPG



Here are the results with the 100Ohm load as Willie recommended - success !!!:
IMG_6237.JPG



Here is the real test "load", a real MN15 bulb (no 100Ohm resistor like I used earlier to test/measure voltages as Willie suggested):
IMG_6235.JPG



Here you can see the soft-start on the real bulb:
IMG_6238.JPG



and here are the measured and calculated new DC or equivalent output, right at 7.4Volts!:
IMG_6240.JPG



and here is the patient after recovery, driving an MN15 bulb - much whiter and much nicer than before!:
IMG_6241.JPG



Since I have several contact points and wires, clippie things, etc., in series with the battery and the bulb, the measured 7.4V must really be around 7.5V or so, so I have met my initial goal for a regulated 7.5V LVR "transplant" ;)

The only thing left to do is to do a couple of charge and run tests to verify the new slightly higher voltage setpoint for the warning flashes. I will report later once I have this data.

I hope this was helpful :)

Will
 
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wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

OK, done doing a full run with the MN15 at the new voltage.

Starting voltage (no load) = 12.67V

Ending voltage (no load) = 11.17V

Run duration until warning pulses = 1 hour 6 minutes ;)

I am charging again (100mA, for a good charge) and trying with the MN20 next :D

I will report how many mAH does my Triton puts in before declaring the M6-R pack charged.

Will
 

wptski

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

Just had a PM discussion about RMS/DC thing! My electronics training was waaaaay back but I was under the impression that true RMS only applied to AC voltage. The problem of a not so nice sinewave may be fooled using a averaging meter.

I ran into this while trouble shooting a electronic air cleaner using a Fluke T-600 tester. I read about 20-30v low but my Fluke 189 read it correctly!

If I'm full of haha as I am many times, I'd like to know! :D
 

wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

Yes, the Fluke 189 is "that" nice indeed. One of the few to offer true RMS on the DC scale as well as the more typical AC scale ;)

I am trying to locate an used on on Ebay at the moment, plus with the logging software/cable, you can use it as a data logger as well :)

Will
 

wptski

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

wquiles said:
Yes, the Fluke 189 is "that" nice indeed. One of the few to offer true RMS on the DC scale as well as the more typical AC scale ;)

I am trying to locate an used on on Ebay at the moment, plus with the logging software/cable, you can use it as a data logger as well :)

Will
Your refering to the subrange marked as AC/DC and DC/AC, correct? I've never used, nor know what they are/do! :D I'll have to look to see what if anything the manual says about them. Going have to read your above in depth to see what your asking. May have to do this prior to bedtime as it may put me to sleep! :D
 

wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

wptski said:
Your refering to the subrange marked as AC/DC and DC/AC, correct? I've never used, nor know what they are/do! :D I'll have to look to see what if anything the manual says about them. Going have to read your above in depth to see what your asking. May have to do this prior to bedtime as it may put me to sleep! :D
Yes, please let me know what the manual says - thanks ;)

Have you used the datta logging features yet?

Will
 

wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

I did the charging in two cycles (since it takes so long at 0.1 Amp, and the Tritton put back into the batteries 662mAH and then 690mAH for a total of 1352mAh, with a final resting voltage of 12.57V. My conclusion so far is that indeed the LVR regulator worked great to get the most out of these cells ;)

Will
 

wptski

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

wquiles said:
Yes, please let me know what the manual says - thanks ;)

Have you used the datta logging features yet?

Will
Oh! Yes, my primary reason for the purchase. I have issues with the software. Can't combine graphs for multiple traces and no CSV file output either, so you stuck.

You can easily download the manual from Fluke's site. Might be faster and better than me explaining it as I talk with hands using lots of one finger gestures! :D
 

wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

Important update: I tested my "new" pack with my own "old" MN20 - simply beautifull :D

From a fully charged pack, I got a solid 31 minutes until the warning pulses arrived. Perfect, white, and beautifull beam for 1/2 hour ;)

Will
 

wptski

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts ...

The 189 manual states in can read DC current upper screen only, DC upper/AC downer, AC upper/DC downer and what is said to be AC+DC RMS in upper screen! Gotta Google DC RMS! :D
 

wquiles

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts - also explaining DC RMS ...

Willies' LVR Site has tones of good information, but here is the text note that Willie shared with me to explain the DC RMS concept - from the look of it he is providing this answer to somebody else already (see text below, not from me), so Willie had this answer ready and he has provided/sent this to many others prior to me ;)

I am sharing it here since nothing on it is proprietary and since I am sure he would want others to understand this concept better, specially when using the LVR regulators that he designed :D

Will


text provided by Willie Hunt:
**********************
THIS IS THE ROOT OF YOUR PROBLEM:

> I'm using a cheap DVM to measure voltage at the load.
> With the dummy load reading 2.85 volts, when I substituted a 6 watt 6
> volt bulb instead, the bulb burned brighly briefly, then blew out. I
> did not have a chance to read the bulb voltage... I was hooking up the
> volt meter as the bulb blew.

> Am I measuring things improperly? Why is the measured voltage
> varying so very much with variation of input voltage that SHOULD be
> within the range of the regulator circuit?

Think about what you are measuring and what your DVM does. You are
measuring a PWM rectangular waveform with a meter that gives you the
average DC voltage component. Now, think about what the bulb does.
It is averaging the power waveform, which is proportional to the DC
coupled true RMS. Even I don't have a DC coupled true RMS voltmeter,
thus I set all the regulators using the duty cycle measurement on my
Tek 2440 scope. I assumed that you would understand true RMS
concepts, and thus know how to set the duty cycle. Sorry, I often
assume too much.


Here's a bit of math:

t=end
/
DVM average = | v dt
/
t=0
t=end
/
DC coupled true RMS = square root( | v^2 dt )
/
t=0

t=end
/
Bulb power = | v * i dt
/
t=0

given that the waveform switches fast enough we can use the average
bulb resistance R because it changes so little over the cycle:

t=end
/
Bulb power = | v^2 / R dt
/
t=0

Thus

Bulb power = (DC coupled true RMS)^2 / R

That's why RMS is useful.

Let's take the 25% duty cycle at 12 volt in for example:

DVM average = 25% of 12 volts = 3 volts

True RMS = sqrt( 25% of 12^2 ) = sqrt( 0.25 * 144 ) = 6 volts

Assuming a 6 volt, 1 amp, thus 6 ohm bulb we get:

V = iR thus 12 = i * 6 so i = 2

Bulb power = 25% of v * i = 0.25 * 12 * 2 = 6 watts

notice that the peak power (v*i) is 24 watts!

Also, bulb power = RMS^2 / R = 6^2/6 = 6 watts.




Isn't math great! :)

So, the moral of this story is that the DVM is useless for measuring
the output directly. However, if you know that your DVM averages
correctly you can use it on the input, and the ouput and then
calculate the RMS voltage as sqrt( input * output), because you know
the shape of the waveform. This sqrt( in * out) will lose accuracy if
the voltage source sags, because the average input voltage will
measure higher than the peak bulb voltage when the bulb is on.
Alkaline batteries sags greatly, whereas NiCad's sags little, but only
a "stiff" bench lab supply will provide accurate results.

Willie

**********************
 
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wptski

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Re: M6-R LVR3i change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts - also explaining DC RMS ...

Forgot to add that the Fluke 189 uses the same concept of DC voltage as current, same choices.

EDIT: Thanks for the above, I need something to put me to sleep! :D No just kidding. :) This should be easy to prove out on a MAHA C808M as it uses a 50% duty cycle in soft mode.
 
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wptski

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Now, what about current clamp probes/meters and RMS??

I have two ESI 695 AC/DC low current probes and the specs don't mention being RMS. The price doesn't seem like it's RMS either. I've used them with a Fluke 123 which is a RMS meter too. I have a Extech 380942 which is a RMS current clamp meter only. Using the Fluke 123 and the ESI 695 on a PWM chargers like the Energizer 15 lately. The Fluke 123 and Extech read the same so I'm a bit confused. I'm going to play with this using the ESI's and non-RMS DMM more though!
 
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The Fluke 189 does what you do with calculator on the fly. It measures the AC trueRMS voltage and DC voltage alternatingly, then apply the formula sqrt (AC^2 + DC^2) = total RMS.

You really don't need the feature if you don't need to know the total RMS voltage on the fly.
 

wptski

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Handlobraesing said:
The Fluke 189 does what you do with calculator on the fly. It measures the AC trueRMS voltage and DC voltage alternatingly, then apply the formula sqrt (AC^2 + DC^2) = total RMS.

You really don't need the feature if you don't need to know the total RMS voltage on the fly.
On the fly? When would that be??

If anybody really want to get their head spinning check this forum out: www.eng-tips.com. All kinds of sections and they get really techy but what do you expect from engineers, right? It won't accept my password anymore and it's tied to my email address, so I'm out of luck. Just do search for "RMS" and see what you come up with and hold on to your hat! :D
 

NewBie

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Thats great!

These LVR regulators made by Willie Hunt are nearly infamous for those in the know.

Willie Hunt has been making these PWM regulators for incandescent bulbs for over a decade now, and knows what he is doing. Since he works for Surefire, I wonder why they have never incorporated his design in their lights.

Great to see your post and all the pics!
 
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wquiles

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Thanks NewBie :eek:

The more I play with these LVR's the more amazed I am at how much detail went into the software/algorithms used by Willie in these designs ;)

Will
 

NewBie

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wquiles said:
Thanks NewBie :eek:

The more I play with these LVR's the more amazed I am at how much detail went into the software/algorithms used by Willie in these designs ;)

Will


Yes, they are very nice, and folks get to benefit from nearly a decade of experience and work he has put into them.
 

js

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wquiles,

Excellent thread. Good stuff about RMS and PWM and measuring output. I will bookmark this thread for future reference if anyone ask me to explain this stuff or wants to change LVR setpoint voltage. Good to know that my guess of the MN20 optimal drive voltage (7.5 to 7.6 volts) wasn't too high! The MN20 is such a lovely LA and beam in the M6 head. Nice work and nice documentation.
 

wquiles

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js said:
wquiles,

Excellent thread. Good stuff about RMS and PWM and measuring output. I will bookmark this thread for future reference if anyone ask me to explain this stuff or wants to change LVR setpoint voltage. Good to know that my guess of the MN20 optimal drive voltage (7.5 to 7.6 volts) wasn't too high! The MN20 is such a lovely LA and beam in the M6 head. Nice work and nice documentation.
Thank you Jim :eek:

Yes, 7.5 to 7.6V seems perfect for the MN20 :D

Will
 
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