'Tactical' brightness. An urban legend???

I was doing some routine flashlight maintenance last night. Lubricating threads, checking batteries. You get the general idea....
My good lady wife (SWMBO) was looking aghast at my collection in its three aluminium cases when I accidently caught her in the beam of my Surefire 8NX.

'Why do they have to be so damm bright?'

'Well, its tactical brightness you see, to blind an attacker for a couple of seconds so I can....... Run away from them while they cant see me.'

'Rubbish Simon, absolute RUBBISH'

'Okay' I said, warming to my task and on safe ground. 'Go and arm yourself and we'll do some role-play'

SWMBO returned from the kitchen after a couple of seconds carrying a 9'' Global Chefs knife and wearing an 'interesting' grin.

Errrrr. :thinking:

'Can we keep this a friendly, non-lethal exercise please? You're scaring me....'

She swapped the knife for a wooden spoon (Phew)

We went outside and stood at either end of the garden. We waited a couple of minutes for her eyes to become dark adapted. She started to wave the spoon around in a fairly threatening fashion.

She CHARGED across the lawn at me.

I dropped the 8NX:shakehead

I bent down to retrieve it.

She hit me on the head whilst I was bending down, none too gently :duh2:


Okay, lets try that again, this time without me dropping the torch.

SWMBO retreated back across the lawn then charged again!

POW! I lit her up, 100 lumens of TACTICAL brightness right in the eyes.

She didnt slow down. Nope, not for a second:eeksign:


The only difference the torch seemed to make was to illuminate her beautifully. Great, I could see her coming. She didnt look blinded to me.

She hit me again. This time in the gut (Plenty of natures padding there)


SWMBO told me later that the light had made her squint a little and angle her head down a little but it also gave her 'something to aim for'



Now I *know* that a bright flashlight gives LEO's a tactical edge in certain low light situations, thats been proven time and time again. Had I used something brighter than the 8NX and actually suprised her with the light I daresay the outcome would have been different. Real life and role play are not the same.


Its just as well we dont :touche: for real, I have no doubt she would win.

An entertaining night all round, at least we :kiss: and made up!

Cheers,
Simon

Without a doubt light can and is being used "tactically". It gives you the opportunity to do something that gives you the advantage.
Illuminating a target is only a possible step in a sequence of actions - not an end (resolution) in itself.

In your example I think it's fair to say that it was you not being "tactical" that got you into trouble, not any lack of lumens!

Al

Well in my opinion the test you conducted is a bit unfair, its to your disadvantage actually haha.

Try this scenario:

A robber comes to you with a knife, and tries to rob you. You shine him with your Surefire and he gets stunned.


The difference here is that the robber did not know you had a flashlight to stun him. Well,your wife knew what she was up against, you see. Maybe you should scare her after she does one of her facials.

I think the normal real world application of a tactical light includes the idea that it constitutes a surprise for your assailant. That surprise - and maybe a little disorientation resuloting - is much of the advantage you're supposed to gain with a tactical light. If your assailant knows what's coming, then they can probably bull through any physical reaction they would have from a bright unlight unless you happen to have a maxabeam or 200 mw green laser on you.

No legend!

A tactical light will give you a few seconds to react faster than your enemy, and that are the seconds your life can depend on!

In most cases a flashlight alone won't help, but with an additional gun the situation looks different :laughing: .

All i am looking for is a couple of seconds of eye distortion coming from a SF. That is enough time for me to pull my gun. Usually perps work in the night and their pupils are usually shrunk. One good shot wit a SF will do a quick eye distort.

I love this. I wish I could have seen the looks on your neighbors' faces as they watched this jousting from behind their curtains.

On the actual issue:

1) People have varying abilities to adjust to bright light. And 100 lumens is not very bright.

2) In a real situation,where adrenalin is pumping, 100 lumens and a book's worth of flashlight tacitics will mean nothing.

3) Next time, see how she does against the 500-lumen TigerLight with pepper spray.

simonsays said:

Now I *know* that a bright flashlight gives LEO's a tactical edge in certain low light situations, thats been proven time and time again. Had I used something brighter than the 8NX and actually suprised her with the light I daresay the outcome would have been different. Real life and role play are not the same.

Click to expand...

Like I said in my original post, I accept there is a difference between real life and a simulation. The environment could not have been made more artificial if I had tried. I guess the only thing I really illustrated was that SWMBO really does *not* like to lose an argument with her husband

Cheers,
Simon

If a person is prepared for what's coming, then the effect of the light is greatly reduced.

I've done many similar experiments with my friends. Every time they were aware of the experiment they practically disabled the effects of the light, even a ROP High.

BUT... When I surprised them with a light, the effect was far greater. There was often some sort of involuntary reaction and a 1-2 second delay in their OODA loop.

The only exception would be the Gladius. Although the effect of the strobe was still reduced when the subject knew it was coming, there was still a slight disorienting effect. On a few occasions I've been able to tune out the strobe and attack a friend who shone it at me, but there was also some ambient lighting to assist me.
When the subject did not see the Gladius strobe coming, the effects were more disorienting than simply a bright light. There was usually a more severe involuntary reaction and as much as a 3-4 second delay in their OODA loop. At which point they would get upset and try and disarm me of my light.

I've used my lights on the job to successfully manage confrontations. I can say with certainty that using a light (mostly a 60-80 lumen one) DID give me a slight advantage.

What I've found in the real world of Chicago's ghettos which is where I work, is that unless your assailant is less than 10 ft. or even closer the light will have little effect. Even when it does work, and it does at close distances, it will buy you 2-3 seconds at MOST, to turn the attack in your favor or make a retreat/re-position and change your tactics. The bottom line is that this "tactical blinding" is merely a distraction and you better have a plan of attack after employing it.

In a real world situation with an oncoming attacker at night, you might be able to temporarily flash blind him before physically engaging him, but then you would want to turn the light off so as not to provide him with a target. From there, it's "fight or flight."

pete7226 said:

The bottom line is that this "tactical blinding" is merely a distraction and you better have a plan of attack BEFORE employing it.

Click to expand...

Fixed it for you!

And the light you use needs to be about 200 lumens, not 65 lumens. I've experienced most of my lights at one time or another, and the output from P60's and P90's is NOT going to disrupt anything I'm engaged in. A P91 or 12VHP actually WILL produce flash blinding of tactically useful level. If your eyes don't HURT when lit up, the light is NOT bright enough to carry for defensive/offensive purposes.

As mentioned, BEFORE you hit the light switch your mind should already be preparing to carry out "plan B", whether that involves deescalation, retreat, or a robust reaction to end the festivities early.

Paladin

In the realm of tactical brightness...

I seem to recall some years ago a "gadget" (I'm almost positive it wasn't billed
as a "weapon", and this was well before "tactical" became its modern catchphrase)
that was essentially an array of M25 flash bulbs (OK, raise your hands if you're
old enough to remember flash bulbs) that you kept in your bedroom (presumably
in lieu of an actual weapon) to shine -- "flash" -- at uninvited guests, disorienting
them long enough to make your escape, call the cops, unchain your Rottweiler(s),
or whatever.

For those of you unfamiliar with flash bulbs, they were what we used with cameras
before electronic flash became cheap and widely available. The lowly AG1 flash bulb --
pretty much dwarfed by the average tip of the little finger -- pretty much blows away
any electronic flash 99.8% of you have ever seen; the M25 flashbulb just annihilates
the cute, little AG1; an array of M25s would be not a mere wall of light, but more like
a Mack Truck full of excited photons slamming into you. I very very vaguely recall
that an M25 is rated something like 5,000-10,000 lumen-seconds, or about 1,000,000
lumens for the 5-10ms of its brief but oh-so-glorious lifetime.

Your eyeball will notice a MegaLumen, let alone an array of MegaLumens...Unfortunately,
I suspect the above-mentioned gadget was probably just about as "disorienting" to the
average user as the average usee, so to speak. In any event, it didn't seem to have a
very long product lifespan, haven't seen anything like it for decades now.

-RDH

I m totally with postalguy, the execution of the test was wrong.

You should have lighted Your Lady up as long as possible, but just be4 she reaches You, TURN THE LIGHT OFF.
Then anyone should be disoriented (at least as long to win the time to get away).

If the light is not of the very much extreme powerful kind (an output we here would consider as extreme), You just light her and the way for her up, the eyes adapt very quick to much light (if not, human eyes would not last very long).
Now loosing the illumination, the sight is gone (and dark adaption needs some time)

Simon,

I think you win the prize (in this case, 2 lumps) for My Favorite CPF Story.

Your wife sounds pretty interesting, though your light or your tactics (perhaps both) need improvement.

Please continue your research using more powerful flashlights, and her, more powerful kitchen utensils, until the outcome is more determinate. JUST kidding!

May I suggest? Choose a semi-friend, preferebly a really big one. A "semi-friend" is one who likes to em-bare-*** you at parties. Use a piece of foam shaped into a club (water pipe insulation works well) You BOTH get a club. First one to get hit on the head looses. If you want to keep it more civil, an open palm touch on the tip of the soulder is suitable for those not practiced in maintaining sportsmanship & composure during contact sports.

LIGHT and MOVE, STROBE & MOVE! Improvise, adapt, overcook...err, I mean overcome.

Thanks for the chuckle. Good lumens.

rdh226 said:

In the realm of tactical brightness...

I seem to recall some years ago a "gadget" (I'm almost positive it wasn't billed
as a "weapon", and this was well before "tactical" became its modern catchphrase) that was essentially an array of M25 flash bulbs ...SNIP
-RDH

Click to expand...

The forerunner of the Gladius' tactical strobe:
http://www.dlbrittain.com/FlashGuys.GIF

The "device" I remember was a 6in mirrored reflector that held a Magicube (4 mechanically activated AG1 sized lamps) that were activated by a mechanical button trigger. I believe it could/would fire all four at once.

I HAVE seen 25s (like you say; It is overwhelming) flash. The real thrill is seeing 10 of the 25s go at once...24 times in less than 60 seconds. Jethro Tull's "Bungle in the Jungle" War Child tour, Memphis, circa 1974. I could not hit anything with a spoon afterwards.

Just wondering here - does ANYONE still make flash bulbs?

I suppose it would be cheaper in the long run and less wasteful to play with a really high powered Xenon electronic flash, even if it weren't as bright.

Still, I'm old enough to rememeber flash cubes - and their brief successor, the "Flip Flash" (A bar with 8 or 10 flashbulbs instead of the 4 you got on a cube.)

Please continue your research using more powerful flashlights, and her, more powerful kitchen utensils, until the outcome is more determinate. JUST kidding!



I did discuss a re-match with either my ROP or Tesla-6 but she'd already seem them in action and declined

The ROP sits next to my back door and yes, I believe it *will* have some marked effect on whoever gets it in the eyes. I know this because I've tried it out on myself

I dont think my post was ever really meant to question the tactical value of a bright light, just my own half-assed attempt to illustrate it to a non believer. I think SWMBO just saw it as an opportunuty to give me a

Cheers,
Simon

simonsays said:

She CHARGED across the lawn at me.

I dropped the 8NX:shakehead

Click to expand...

I have nothing useful to add, I just wanted to let you know I am laughing and trying to make my self stop.:laughing:

Simonsays,

The problem is all in the approach. Try this out.

Wait until around 2 or 3 in the morning. Sneak out of bed and grab you Surefure 8NX. Walk quietly in the room and stand next to your wonderfully peaceful wife.

Point the light into her face and tell her to GET OUT OF THE BED AND ONTO THE FLOOR. Repeat this until she complies. When it is all over, ask her if she was surprised and if the light was disorienting.

I think that you will find the answer to your question as this experience draws to a close. Also, the benefit is that your wife will also find the answer to this question and I think that she will be greatful that you illuminated her mind to the benefit of white light in a tactical situation.

Let me know how it goes! You can thank me later

-Goatee

P.S. You also might want to sleep with your jeans on for a couple of weeks after this experiment just to make sure that she does not suffer from any flashbacks or PTSD.