Why all the squabbling between the LED camps?

MacTech · Apr 14, 2007

I've noticed recently that there has been an increase in "squabbling" between the different "camps" of LEDs, as it were, you're getting Cree fans Vs. Seoul fans Vs. Lumileds fans Vs. Nichia fans Vs. Edison fans Vs...... ad infinitum

Am i the only one who really doesn't care which LED is which, they're *all* good, just different (to borrow a quote from Spyderco's Sal Glesser)

I have Luxeon, Cree, and Seoul based lights, and i like them *all*, they all produce light, which is the sole purpose of a flashlight, just because i've added a Seoul based light to my arsenal, it's not going to make my Luxes and Crees stop working, they're all good lights.....

Hmm...come to think about it, i don't have a single Lux K2 or Lux5 based light in my arsenal, and that's a deficiency that needs to be fixed, ASAP, even if they're "old" technology

look back one year, then five years to the lights we had back then, we've got lights now that no one would have thought possible, i mean, before i became a Flashaholic, if you told me i would have a flashlight that was brighter and more powerful than my "Mighty 6D Maglite" but could hide in the palm of my hand and slip unnoticed into my pocket, i'd have called you insane, if you told me i would have a flashlight that runs on *one* battery and produces usable light for NINETY hours, yet can throw as well as a 2-3 D-cell Mag, i'd have laughed at you

If you told me i'd think nothing of voluntarily spending almost $200 on "just a flashlight", i'd have called for you to be committed.....

the LED flashlight industry has more in common with the computer industry than it does with the flashlight industry anyway, both have a similar rapid "obsolescence" curve, just like a computer is obsolete the moment it rolls of the production line, it seems LED technology also has a very similar rapid obsolescence curve, lights that weeks/months ago were being hailed as great lights, are now looked down apon and derided because they're simply using what we consider an "outdated" emitter.....

My fellow LED fans, the "infighting" is getting annoying, why can't we all just concentrate on *enjoying* our lights, whether they're a simple 5MM Nichia based light (remember those?), or the latest ÜberLED from "LumiLedsCreeSeoulEdisonConGlomCo" An AOL/Time-Warner company

besides, we all know incans have better color rendition anyway

(ducks and runs)

cratz2 · Apr 14, 2007

I hear ya... to be honest, every very specific internet forum I've ever been a part of has demonstrated to me why there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East. I mean, if a group of flashlight junkies can't get along and we get hung up on the smallest and most mundane of details, how the HECK are folks with overwhelming religious differences ever going to settle their differences.

As to the actual LED debate, I agree that it makes VERY little sense. I mean, a week or two ago, one guy was basically taunting people that appreciate or have a use for dim LED lights with long runtime and about three threads away, was a guy asking for something dimmer than 2 Lumens. And in addition to the Cree vs Seoul or either of them vs Lux III or Lux V, there is the ever popular throw or flood. Same guy that was taunting the dim LED folks was also basically saying that nobody in the history of the world could have any use for an LED light with decent throw.

While all men (and women) may be created equal, not all turn out quite that way. And we need to allow for those who have lost their way and welcome them anyway.

cave dave · Apr 14, 2007

I'm thinking about going out to Target to get some more Inova X1's before they are "upgraded" to 2 watts.

Not every change is an improvement!

Daekar · Apr 14, 2007

+1 to that! Couldn't have said it better myself!

FlashCrazy · Apr 14, 2007

Why all the squabbling? It's simple....Seoul's LED's are the best, and everyone else is jealous. LOL I'm kidding!

Seriously, I couldn't have put it better myself. Each LED has it's own qualities, and I like each of them for what they are. I have lights that I won't upgrade because of that reason. Plus I'm keeping a K2 in a light that I have just because, well...it's a K2...even though it takes almost twice the current as one of the new LED's for the same brightness. There's just something about it's beam that I like.

Good job, and I like your last comment about the incans! :lolsign:

MacTech · Apr 14, 2007

Heh, and to sort of buck the current "latest and greatest" trend, i've revised my EDC arsenal

my normal EDC lights are;
A2 Aviator
E1L-SR running a RCR-123a BatteryStation cell
Fenix L2T with 10-ohm resistor in the tailcap, making it a 3 level light

I'm now EDC'ing;
A2 Aviator
E1L-SR running a RCR-123a BatteryStation cell
Fenix L1P with 10-ohm resistor in the tailcap, making it a 2 level light

the A2 on low is my "dark adapted" light, on high it's my "reach out and touch someone" light
the E1L-SR is my general-purpose light (Guilt-Free Lumens, WOOHOO!)
and the Fenix (either one) is my battery scavenger light, given the ubiquitous nature of the AA battery, currently both Fenixes (Fenii??) are running NIMH batteries (Guilt Free Lumens!

), but in the improbable chance that i've used up all my 123a's and my rechargables are all flat, the Fenix gives me the opportunity to scavenge batteries from other devices

why go back to the L1P, you ask, and why make a "dim" 1 watt light even "dimmer" with a resistored tailcap mod?

simple, i already own it, and because i can, sure i could purchase a L1T body and use my L2T head and resistored tailcap on that, heck, i could use my Nekomane 123a body instead, but i wanted a compact light that allows me to scavenge AA cells, the L2T is a great light and still sees use, but i've become rather fond of the single battery format, it allows me to unobtrusively carry multiple lighting solutions in less space than the larger lights, using my resistored tailcap on the L1P allows me to choose between brightness or battery life, in an emergency situation, when i'm down to scavenging AA's , i don't want to burn through them in an hour and have to look for more, i want the option of dialing back the power to preserve battery life

So, instead of going with the "Next Best Thing" in tiny EDC lights, i've decided to stick with the good ol' reliable L1P, it's not the brightest anymore, but it's a very solidly built light, and just as good now as the day it rolled out of Fenix's production plant....

and you know, the L1P is only *slightly* shorter than my E1L-SR, with the SF Twisty tailcap it's about the same length, with the Clicky (or McTC) it's maybe 1/4" longer at the most

uk_caver · Apr 14, 2007

The LED flashlight industry has more in common with the computer industry than it does with the flashlight industry anyway,...

Precisely - and computing is full of various holy wars - MS vs Mac vs Linux, Intel vs AMD vs Power PC, ...

However, I guess that one difference may be that with LEDs, many people are actually much more motivated by (obsessed with?) pure lumens and/or efficiency than any kind of manufacturer loyalty. They might praise Seoul or Cree today, but be ready to praise Lumileds tomorrow if they actually start shipping a better device.

EssLight · Apr 14, 2007

cave dave said:
I'm thinking about going out to Target to get some more Inova X1's before they are "upgraded" to 2 watts.

Not every change is an improvement!

Lighthound has the Inova X1 on closeout, I just ordered one.

I like bright lights, but there are also uses for not-so-bright lights with long runtime.

fstuff · Apr 14, 2007

MacTech said:
I've noticed recently that there has been an increase in "squabbling" between the different "camps" of LEDs, as it were, you're getting Cree fans Vs. Seoul fans Vs. Lumileds fans Vs. Nichia fans Vs. Edison fans Vs...... ad infinitum

Am i the only one who really doesn't care which LED is which, they're *all* good, just different (to borrow a quote from Spyderco's Sal Glesser)

I have Luxeon, Cree, and Seoul based lights, and i like them *all*, they all produce light, which is the sole purpose of a flashlight, just because i've added a Seoul based light to my arsenal, it's not going to make my Luxes and Crees stop working, they're all good lights.....

Hmm...come to think about it, i don't have a single Lux K2 or Lux5 based light in my arsenal, and that's a deficiency that needs to be fixed, ASAP, even if they're "old" technology

look back one year, then five years to the lights we had back then, we've got lights now that no one would have thought possible, i mean, before i became a Flashaholic, if you told me i would have a flashlight that was brighter and more powerful than my "Mighty 6D Maglite" but could hide in the palm of my hand and slip unnoticed into my pocket, i'd have called you insane, if you told me i would have a flashlight that runs on *one* battery and produces usable light for NINETY hours, yet can throw as well as a 2-3 D-cell Mag, i'd have laughed at you

If you told me i'd think nothing of voluntarily spending almost $200 on "just a flashlight", i'd have called for you to be committed.....

the LED flashlight industry has more in common with the computer industry than it does with the flashlight industry anyway, both have a similar rapid "obsolescence" curve, just like a computer is obsolete the moment it rolls of the production line, it seems LED technology also has a very similar rapid obsolescence curve, lights that weeks/months ago were being hailed as great lights, are now looked down apon and derided because they're simply using what we consider an "outdated" emitter.....

My fellow LED fans, the "infighting" is getting annoying, why can't we all just concentrate on *enjoying* our lights, whether they're a simple 5MM Nichia based light (remember those?), or the latest ÜberLED from "LumiLedsCreeSeoulEdisonConGlomCo" An AOL/Time-Warner company

besides, we all know incans have better color rendition anyway (ducks and runs)

not obsolete, but i agree with your anaolgy with computers.

today, it's about dual core computers. but a pentium 3 (2 generations old, and from last century) can still run winXP, surf the web, read email, and do simple word processing.

my 2AA mag from 1980 can still cut thru darkness, and let me see.

bell + whistles (a zillion lux, a bagillion hrs run time, the size of a tear drop, can survive a direct hit by a nuke, etc) is the difference.

For simple basic uses, a $1 flashlight from Walmart does almost as good as a $40 LED.

knot · Apr 14, 2007

MacTech said:
ad infinitum

That would be the "be all end all" of LED brands. What a great brand name.

With your username, I thought you'd understand the squabbling.

Mac :touche

C

Patriot · Apr 14, 2007

I couldn't agree with you more. They're all very good LEDs. I have a few new Crees, P4s and recently I've gotten into K2s because I like the tint and pattern that they throw. They haven't replaced my L4 or L2 for EDC lights. They're light years ahead of what was available 10 years ago and I really like them all. It's neat that we have such an variety of choices out there. We should address every CPF member with the knowledge that they may have different tastes than our own.

Thanks for starting this tread Mactech.

NoFair · Apr 14, 2007

It is a bit like steel discussions with knives. Yesteryears wondersteel is now obsolete junk although the things we cut are mostly the same

Think about the S30V, VG10, BG-42, D2, AUS8, H1.... discussions on knife forums

I have a few Cree lights (given most away) and some with Seouls (modded luxeon lights) and don't have a huge preference. My Seoul lights are high quality lights with my preference of colour tint on the leds, but the Crees are supposed to be more or less just as good.

I still use my U2 (obsolete inefficient LuxV) and other luxeon lights, but with with multilevel lights I find I use the lower levels more after switching to better emitters. Often I find that single stage lights using Crees/Seouls are too bright and I don't use them. I prefer incans for singel stage bright lights...

If I want really bright I still use incans

Since I more or less only use rechargeables I don't really mind the short runtimes...

Sverre

Outdoors Fanatic · Apr 14, 2007

A quality flashlight will never be obsolete. Period. A flashlight is a tool, have you ever seen an obsolete hammer or screwdriver? "Must buy that new carbon and kevlar hammer ASAP, this plain iron and wood one won't nail as good"

GrnXnham · Apr 14, 2007

Squabbling?

I frequent about 8 different forums daily.

This one is the most civil of them all!

People who are into flashlights are some of the nicest people on the internet.

Paul_in_Maryland · Apr 14, 2007

MacTech said:
...it seems LED technology also has a very similar rapid obsolescence curve, lights that weeks/months ago were being hailed as great lights, are now looked down apon and derided because they're simply using what we consider an "outdated" emitter.....

That's why, to paraphrase the Harvard professor's remark about new books, "Whenever a new LED light comes out, I buy two [old] incans."

cmaylodm · Apr 14, 2007

Outdoors Fanatic said:
A quality flashlight will never be obsolete. Period. A flashlight is a tool, have you ever seen an obsolete hammer or screwdriver? "Must buy that new carbon and kevlar hammer ASAP, this plain iron and wood one won't nail as good"

Ever see a hammer or screwdriver that takes batteries?

Gannz · Apr 14, 2007

I think it's good. Something for everyone (even the mfg's). Like many of you I still prefer an incan for throw so almost all of my LED's are used at close range. I like the color/tint and floody beam of the SSC's.

A well made flashlight will live much longer than a PC (another + for the SSC is the ease of upgrade). As long as it lights things up, someone will keep it around and or buy/sell/trade. Also, while I've heard of some people collecting older technology, flashlights have the edge in collectability.

TORCH_BOY · Apr 15, 2007

It's the same with Cars and Cell phones

sims2k · Apr 15, 2007

uk_caver said:
Precisely - and computing is full of various holy wars - MS vs Mac vs Linux, Intel vs AMD vs Power PC, ...

However, I guess that one difference may be that with LEDs, many people are actually much more motivated by (obsessed with?) pure lumens and/or efficiency than any kind of manufacturer loyalty. They might praise Seoul or Cree today, but be ready to praise Lumileds tomorrow if they actually start shipping a better device.

Just as I kept my first IBM PC with its 8086 CPU that I bought in 1984...I will always keep my first Maglite Solitaires in their different colors tip-top and in running condition. A flashlight is still a flashlight to me ... no matter it has LED or incan bulb in it. Wait until the Luxeon Rebel lights comes out and see what happens...would be interesting then...

CodeOfLight · Apr 15, 2007

sims2k said:
Just as I kept my first IBM PC with its 8086 CPU that I bought in 1984...I will always keep my first Maglite Solitaires in their different colors tip-top and in running condition. A flashlight is still a flashlight to me ... no matter it has LED or incan bulb in it. Wait until the Luxeon Rebel lights comes out and see what happens...would be interesting then...

We have doctors for people like you

Why all the squabbling between the LED camps?

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