arc aaa rebel

Originally posted by smknman on 8-05-07 HERE.

please Mister Gransee?

Copied Replies:

Manzerick08-08-2007 12:20 PM
Re: arc aaa rebel

Sounds like a job for Miller mods!!!

Gransee08-08-2007 03:53 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

It is too soon to say, but I have something else planned for the Arc-AAA. It won't be everyone expects but it will should be consistant with past decisions.

peter

Daniel_sk08-08-2007 04:00 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Wow, exciting news . Any chance we will see the new version before Christmas? (or maybe already in a month? )

Gransee08-08-2007 04:01 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Too soon to say. Sorry.

peter

9volt08-08-2007 04:13 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Arc AAA-D(raco)?

Russianesq08-08-2007 09:11 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

oh say it....... or at least give us a hint :thinking:

greenLED08-08-2007 10:01 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gransee (Post 2052444)
It won't be everyone expects but it will should be consistant with past decisions.

You guys should look up Peter's design requirements for the ArcAAA before getting all excited about a "power" AAA.

270winchester08-08-2007 10:21 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gransee (Post 2052444)
It is too soon to say, but I have something else planned for the Arc-AAA. It won't be everyone expects but it will should be consistant with past decisions.

peter

:wave:

but Peter, :thumbsdow for keeping your lips so tight, :nana:

Grumpy08-08-2007 10:46 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

I would like to have one. One level of light is plenty for my uses. Would like approx 5 hour runtime.

Two levels of light would be the maximum that I would like. I purchased two Jetu and could only get them to turn on at the level of light that I wanted about 50% of the time (even less with wet hands while fishing).

I hate to twist, twist, twist,twist, twist, twist,twist, twist, twist,twist, twist, twist!

Gransee08-09-2007 06:55 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenLED (Post 2052553)
You guys should look up Peter's design requirements for the ArcAAA before getting all excited about a "power" AAA.

Heeee's right.

peter

Manzerick08-09-2007 08:15 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Exaclty! My arc is not a blaster nor should it be!

I'd take a "miser" type Arc with serious runtimem and a hair brighter. The buid quality is such that it is well, well worth it IMHO!!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Gransee (Post 2052654)
Heeee's right.

peter



Manzerick08-09-2007 08:18 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

From the ARC site:

Arc-AAA
Purpose: The Arc-AAA is designed to meet the qualifications of the "Every Day Carry - most convenient" class. To meet these goals, the light must:
Be small enough to be carried with minimum effort and thought. Ideally, it would attach to something else you already are in the habit of carrying. That way, it is more likely to be with you during an emergency
Have sufficient runtime to last the length of typical emergencies with an additional amount added because we can assume the battery is not always fresh when you leave the house
Use a common battery that can be found throughout the world and can also be scavenged from other equipment
Be durable enough that it can be depended on over a wide type of emergencies including floods, fire, earthquake, etc. It should be at least as durable as the person carrying it

datiLED08-09-2007 08:25 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

A Q5 CREE, powered at 150mA. It would only require a minor revision to the circuit board, and would run for a respectable amount of time with a white floody beam. Heat would not be an issue. And while it won't light up the side of the house, it will be significantly brighter than the AAA-P.

Am I close?

THE_dAY08-09-2007 08:40 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

my guess is a different colored cpf special version..

but my dream is a cree Q5, please no more angry blue LEDs

Daniel_sk08-09-2007 08:47 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Yes, I am also not looking for more output (or maybe only a little more, if it doesn't compromise runtime), rather I would like something that hasn't got the angry blue tint and is more efficient (more runtime, same or little higher output)...

Gransee08-09-2007 08:56 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

I probably shouldn't be showing you guys this. Its probably like adding gas to a fire... Always with the pestering about using a larger LED. geez.

And no, I am not making this flashlight. Just showing that I do research stuff occasionally instead of spending all my time on the forums telling you no.



Don made this head. It has a Seoul 1/2 watt driven with the stock pcb (5hr runtime). This picture was taken back in March. It was tested in the sphere and produced about 10 lumens. Beam is nice and tightly focused (it better be with that huge planet sized head) and the tint is very nice.

Nope, I have something else planned. And just to set your expectations down a notch, I did this while working on a big, huge, all-consuming project (the LS) and so don't expect that the new AAA is also a big huge development as well. Tiny steps.

peter

THE_dAY08-09-2007 09:05 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

tiny steps are good as long as their in the right direction

Daniel_sk08-09-2007 09:13 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

For me, Arc AAA looks is only a little (LED) step from being perfect .

Manzerick08-09-2007 12:27 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Thank you Peter!!! Very nice proto!!


The Arc with the big head should be called "The Barry Bonds"


:lolsign:

Daekar08-09-2007 02:48 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gransee (Post 2052654)
Heeee's right.

peter


Heheh glad to hear it. Somebody has to keep making sensible lights! In actuality, unless the emitter is going to be changed for a more efficient one... I can't really think of a way to improve the AAA-P. It's pretty perfect the way it is IMHO. I'll be curious to see what you come up with though. Oh yes, those pictures and all the discussion (and your responses) about the LS have me dribbling with anticipation. I hope they're not out of my price range, otherwise I might have to start selling off things to get one.

smknman08-09-2007 03:29 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

All i'm looking for is a white tint and maybe even more runtime. 10 lumens are plenty. Kinda surprised to get a response, especially one that gives me hope.

WTH08-09-2007 03:31 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Look at the waiting list for millermods arc-aaa's. Maybe you should just put something like that into production and call it a day?

>08-09-2007 04:00 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

I am glad to hear that the wheels are turning for the improved Arc AAA. I believe that the only possible improvements are to make it longer running at the same output level and get a whiter tint from the emitter.

I wouldn't even want to see the regulation change.

BytorJr08-09-2007 07:25 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

10-12 lumens sounds good, with a little more throw. Not much, just a little more. Kind of like my Solitare with the drop-in. It throws good but has a good amount of spill. Nice White light on the warmer side and say 10 hours of run time (if that's conceivable). I'd like to think if I was trapped somewhere in a disaster I'd have the ability to have a light for a while to keep me from having a claustrophobic attack.

Possibly even a low mode of 2 lumens with some outrageous run-time even if not continuous would even be better, but not a requirement in my book.

Sinjz08-09-2007 07:42 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Can't wait to see what you came up with and if it's good enough to make me replace the original Arc AAA I still EDC.

skalomax08-09-2007 08:01 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Very cool.

but, brighter is better. Muahhha

Radio08-09-2007 08:26 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

RunTime!!!!!!! I want a Survival Light! I have bright lights, I want a light that will run FOREVER!!!!! :thumbsup:

fluke08-09-2007 09:16 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Brighter ??? No.
Whiter ??? Yes please.
Runtime ??? More is better , but 5 hours plus is superb.

Does anyone really want to change this little masterpiece ???
It's a classic that many have tried to imitate.

I love my Arc AAA P, wouldn't want it changed drastically, but a less blue LED would be nice, you all just have to trust in the maker

BytorJr08-09-2007 09:33 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Brighter is NOT better in this case, well significantly brighter anyway. Like I said, 10 lumens, a tiny bit more throw. I want something where if I'm stranded and trapped I have light for a LONG time. With an ultraefficient LED, I would think 10 lumens for even 5-7 hours is possible. An EDC light should have sufficient run time to get you out of the jam you may be in. Imagine being stuck in the Amazon - 10 Lumens would be tons of light, and then you'd favor more throw and insane run-times.

Just my 0.02.

DarthLumen08-10-2007 09:42 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by BytorJr (Post 2052903)
Brighter is NOT better in this case, well significantly brighter anyway. Like I said, 10 lumens, a tiny bit more throw. I want something where if I'm stranded and trapped I have light for a LONG time. With an ultraefficient LED, I would think 10 lumens for even 5-7 hours is possible. An EDC light should have sufficient run time to get you out of the jam you may be in. Imagine being stuck in the Amazon - 10 Lumens would be tons of light, and then you'd favor more throw and insane run-times.

Just my 0.02.


Peter,

I concur...with a slight increase in lumens and maintain or increase similar runtime, this light would be all one could ask for...well at least for now. L.O.L.

Most importantly, as a few members have mentioned, it would be great to replace the LED with one that is white. (let's phase the blue out)

Simply give me decent light and long runtime.

We're drooling here.....let's get that new AAA on the market and let the madness commence!!!!!!

Marduke08-10-2007 10:06 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

How about a red LED to preserve night vision? And runtime would probably be even longer...

speederino08-10-2007 03:29 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Bring back the Arc-AA. Please!

skalomax08-10-2007 10:52 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

"Floodiness" Is the key imho.
The styling and finish is great, just a tad brighter and a more flood type beam.
10-15lm?

I don't think keychain lights are supposed to throw. :green:

BT13243508-11-2007 12:11 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Maybe a two-stage arc AAA huh? 3 lumens + 10 lumens

MacTech08-11-2007 02:23 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

the only changes i'd like to see, as has been stated upthread, would be a longer runtime in regulation (8-10 hours or so) and a cleaner tint, less "angry blue", if this can be done with a standard 5mm LED, great, as they have a durability edge over the "Power LED" type

keep everything else the same, beam pattern (floody) and the head-to-body ratio (that "Turbohead" AAA pic looks too unnatural to me), maybe take a page from Peak and have a threaded tailcap with a screw-on lug, so the AAA could tailstand for ceiling bounce, but only do this if it doesn't compromise durability/add unneccecary length

TurboDog608-12-2007 11:08 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Another vote for the Arc AA!

Manzerick08-12-2007 11:50 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

a new Arc AA would be nice!





sawlight08-12-2007 05:03 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by BytorJr (Post 2052840)
10-12 lumens sounds good, with a little more throw. Not much, just a little more. Kind of like my Solitare with the drop-in. It throws good but has a good amount of spill. Nice White light on the warmer side and say 10 hours of run time (if that's conceivable). I'd like to think if I was trapped somewhere in a disaster I'd have the ability to have a light for a while to keep me from having a claustrophobic attack.

Possibly even a low mode of 2 lumens with some outrageous run-time even if not continuous would even be better, but not a requirement in my book.


What I have been BEGGING for for quite some time now!!! I can buy lights that have more power than battery anywhere now!!! K I S S!!!! One stage 10ish lumens 10ish hours runtime, maybe a second stage, but not necessary, just go to moon mode and let it drop slowly!!!

glockboy08-12-2007 06:04 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

I like the Arc AAA Cree R5. :thumbsup:

More copied replies:


22hornet08-15-2007 04:56 AM
Re: arc aaa rebel

With modern leds it must be feasable to make a new ARC AA with about the same output as the original LS (which is plenty for most purposes) and a good runtime with flat regulation.
Single output level and superb quality.
This is my idea of an ideal edc light.
Please ??!!

Kind regards,
Joris

Casual Flashlight User08-16-2007 08:49 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluke (Post 2052894)
Brighter ??? No.
Whiter ??? Yes please.
Runtime ??? More is better , but 5 hours plus is superb.

Does anyone really want to change this little masterpiece ???
It's a classic that many have tried to imitate.

I love my Arc AAA P, wouldn't want it changed drastically, but a less blue LED would be nice, you all just have to trust in the maker


What he said!

Absolutely spot on. :thumbsup:

Oh, and "YES" to the rebirth of the Arc AA. :rock:


CFU

BytorJr08-16-2007 09:18 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

I only want to say one thing to clarify my desires. I think a little more throw would be nice. When I say this, I'm not talking about making it a spot, just smooth out the flood basically to ever so slightly more throw. Like a blend between my solitaire mod (drop-in) and the current Arc. That's it. Nothing else needed in the throw vs flood. And this would NOT be a make or break. I'd rather have the 10/1 lumen thing and a whiter tint.

Thanks!

skalomax08-22-2007 10:03 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Was the new UV Arc the new aaa you were talking about Peter?

paulr08-22-2007 11:14 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Please keep the beam shape about like it is now, don't make it narrower for the sake of throw.

I hate that Peak screw-in tail. It's another thing to lose when you take it off the light, plus it makes the light too much longer, plus it makes the light itself look like a Chinese toy. If you want to make the light tail-stand, use a flat tail like the Fenix L0 series, or even like the old Arc AA.

Nichia supposedly will soon ship 150 lm/W 5mm leds so that would put the output up to 10+ lumens at the same power level that the Arc AAA now uses. Personally I think the existing AAA is bright enough and would rather have a neutral white beam than a couple more lumens, but I know most CPF'ers just want max output, so who am I to stand in the way.

I think the AAA's runtime is just about exactly what it should be too. Make it any shorter by increasing the power, and the cheapskate in me will want to run the light on a rechargeable. And 5 hours is plenty for most normal use. I guess there can be some usefulness to a very extended moon mode for unexpected situations, if that doesn't complicate the circuit too much. I.e. something like: 50% at 3 hours, 25% at 6 hours, 10% at 12 hours. But it's not so important.

A butt-simple 1AA twisty with about the output of the original Arc LS (let's say 20 lm) would be fantastic. I bought a Peak Pacific recently but it is NOT the answer--too big and too complex. A revision of the Arc AA using a Luxeon Rebel at about 100 mA , or even 3 or 4 of those 150 lm/W Nichias at 20 mA each, would be fantastic.

270winchester08-22-2007 11:48 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

100% of what paulr said.

I'll take a newer LED at the same brightness with better color and longer runtime. the output is good enough for all my used in the back country at night. THe hell with max output.

the idea of a AA with the output of the original LS has got my mouth watering just thinking about it.

Gransee08-23-2007 10:42 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

This topic has spread across multiple threads over the years. I wrote my thoughts but the questions still come. maybe I am missing something. So let me ask the question of you guys:

If you, like me want the same throw, brightness, form factor and runtime but only want to change the tint, how would you suggest it be done?

I am interested in your suggestions. However and please, for my sake understand that this has been discussed for years now and frankly, there are not alot of original suggestions at this point. I can remember us talking about putting a luxeon star in the arc-aaa 3-4 years ago. I have prototypes of ls, jupiter, cree, isp, ssc, etc with stock aaa drivers, various high power drivers, larger optics, etc and ad nasuem. I get 2-3 emails a week alone asking when I am going to put a cree in the Arc-AAA. geez. I love you guys but I am going nuts here. And I realize me complaining about it will only temporarily slow the tide, but it does make me feel a little better I guess.

If you just want me to make my own LED, say so. If you just don't understand what is involved in meeting what appears on the surface as a simple task, then say so. If you want me to change the Arc-AAA goals and therefore allow designs that are bigger or have a shorter run time, then say so. But understand that I make the Arc-AAA the way I do for a reason. A larger package or shorter runtime is not in the design goals. Maybe my goals are just wrong by some people. Maybe another product could have those features. maybe there is already many people manufacturing such a product. if so, why do you come to me?

There is a difference in opinion about what consitutes a "better Arc-AAA". for some people, it means changing my goals for the Arc-AAA, which is then no longer an Arc-AAA but some other product. For other people, it means sticking to the goals and even improving how they are met. I am part of the second group. I have written quite a bit about this. Of course the forum is big, people skim threads. I repeated myself over and over and then get grouchy. you all think I am just grouchy for no reason. Nobody is happy. blah blah.

sigh.

here's a quick summary:

things to improve while staying true to the Arc-AAA goals:
- beam quality (no such led exists to my knowledge, there are leds with a better tint but they are dimmer and don't last as long, people say they will buy them but our sales figures tell otherwise)
- runtime (no such led or circuit exists, runtime could be increased by using a more complicated driver (making the product larger or less durable) or by adding a 2-stage switch which makes the product larger or less durable, you already have examples on the market of this)
- brightness (ditto)

If I am wrong, tell me. Understand the difference between constructive criticism about how I meet my goals versus criticism about my goals.

things to improve while not staying true to the Arc-AAA goals:
- dual stage (increases size, may reduce reliability due to more complicated switch)
- beam quality (increase size, reduces durability or reduces throw depending on the optics and led used, may require dual stage, which increases size itself to put more power into an led to recover throw from a wider optic)
- etc (basically, I got tired of typing this all over again but you get the idea)

So understand that this has been going on for awhile and I am trying to be patient (I really am) but its frustrating when you condense the customer's (whom I care about) request down to basically, "your goals are wrong" or "your not meeting you goals" (and then provide no usefull suggestions on how I might improve how I meet the goals).

And I realize that the time I spent writing this will be lost once this thread drops below the radar and people will ask the quesitons all over again. So I guess I am destined to appear like I don't care and not listening or to just type a lot of stuff over an over (I do cut and paste every once in awhile but then I have use the blasted search function).

peter

regulator08-23-2007 11:06 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Hey Peter,

I guess with the new Nichia to be available, the easiest upgrade to the Arc would be to use this LED since no modifications are needed. If the new Nichias have a white tint - they are already said to be 2X as bright as the CS. So, it would instantly upgrade the Arc AAA to what I think will satisfy "most" of the peoples request. Runtime would still be the same and great, output would be doubled, and hopefully tint would be fixed - done!

Penguin08-23-2007 11:17 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Peter, will Arc be using the newest flavor of Nichia's?

fluke08-23-2007 11:38 AMRe: arc aaa rebel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gransee (Post 2057626)
This topic has spread across multiple threads over the years. I wrote my thoughts but the questions still come. maybe I am missing something. So let me ask the question of you guys:

If you, like me want the same throw, brightness, form factor and runtime but only want to change the tint, how would you suggest it be done?

I am interested in your suggestions. However and please, for my sake understand that this has been discussed for years now and frankly, there are not alot of original suggestions at this point. I can remember us talking about putting a luxeon star in the arc-aaa 3-4 years ago. I have prototypes of ls, jupiter, cree, isp, ssc, etc with stock aaa drivers, various high power drivers, larger optics, etc and ad nasuem. I get 2-3 emails a week alone asking when I am going to put a cree in the Arc-AAA. geez. I love you guys but I am going nuts here. And I realize me complaining about it will only temporarily slow the tide, but it does make me feel a little better I guess.

If you just want me to make my own LED, say so. If you just don't understand what is involved in meeting what appears on the surface as a simple task, then say so. If you want me to change the Arc-AAA goals and therefore allow designs that are bigger or have a shorter run time, then say so. But understand that I make the Arc-AAA the way I do for a reason. A larger package or shorter runtime is not in the design goals. Maybe my goals are just wrong by some people. Maybe another product could have those features. maybe there is already many people manufacturing such a product. if so, why do you come to me?

There is a difference in opinion about what consitutes a "better Arc-AAA". for some people, it means changing my goals for the Arc-AAA, which is then no longer an Arc-AAA but some other product. For other people, it means sticking to the goals and even improving how they are met. I am part of the second group. I have written quite a bit about this. Of course the forum is big, people skim threads. I repeated myself over and over and then get grouchy. you all think I am just grouchy for no reason. Nobody is happy. blah blah.

sigh.

here's a quick summary:

things to improve while staying true to the Arc-AAA goals:
- beam quality (no such led exists to my knowledge, there are leds with a better tint but they are dimmer and don't last as long, people say they will buy them but our sales figures tell otherwise)
- runtime (no such led or circuit exists, runtime could be increased by using a more complicated driver (making the product larger or less durable) or by adding a 2-stage switch which makes the product larger or less durable, you already have examples on the market of this)
- brightness (ditto)

If I am wrong, tell me. Understand the difference between constructive criticism about how I meet my goals versus criticism about my goals.

things to improve while not staying true to the Arc-AAA goals:
- dual stage (increases size, may reduce reliability due to more complicated switch)
- beam quality (increase size, reduces durability or reduces throw depending on the optics and led used, may require dual stage, which increases size itself to put more power into an led to recover throw from a wider optic)
- etc (basically, I got tired of typing this all over again but you get the idea)

So understand that this has been going on for awhile and I am trying to be patient (I really am) but its frustrating when you condense the customer's (whom I care about) request down to basically, "your goals are wrong" or "your not meeting you goals" (and then provide no usefull suggestions on how I might improve how I meet the goals).

And I realize that the time I spent writing this will be lost once this thread drops below the radar and people will ask the quesitons all over again. So I guess I am destined to appear like I don't care and not listening or to just type a lot of stuff over an over (I do cut and paste every once in awhile but then I have use the blasted search function).

peter

Thank You :twothumbs

I've not been into flashlights for very long, but love the Arc AAA.
I have a lithium primary in it so I'm set for years
I assumed due to seeing other fauxton type lights that have whiter tint 5mm led's , that it was just a change of emmiter to make the beam whiter.

It does not really matter that the beam has a blue tint, after all it's for when you need a light when your not near anything "conventional" and emergency's.

Thanks for putting me straight :twothumbs

Stillphoto08-23-2007 01:14 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Yeah Peter, the AAA still meets my requirements on a regular basis for keychain edc.

Does it always work without fail? Yes. Is it bright enough for the tasks I choose to use it on? Of course. Have I ever ran down the battery during usage and wished it lasted longer? No.

Personally, I carry the original arc aaa, not even the new one (yet). I don't know about the rest of you, but as a "crap I dropped something under the car seat" light, a "wow its dark in this room I wish i could see 5-10 feet in front of me" light, or as a "hey can someone shine some light in this case so we can take stock of whats inside" light, this light is perfect. Sure any higher powered lights can do the same, and more, with ease. But when my bigger light is in my bag, I know I can turn to my arc on my keys in my pocket and it will get the little stuff done no problem. Thats why I truely value this light in its current factor.

All the new stuff (leds, runtimes, drivers / stages) sound great, but most likely in a different form factor. So I suppose this would be things to look for in a new light. Problem for Gransee is, what then would stop you from just getting a fenix or similar light? That sector of the market is pretty saturated already, and besides the diehard "legacy" customers of the arc brand, demand would most likely not meet the requirements for a sustained production of these lights.

Just my two cents...Thanks for listening

WTH08-23-2007 03:34 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Does a 2-stage necessarily imply bigger size or reduced reliability? Isn't the millermods light the identical form factor? And doesn't it have a pretty solid reputation for being reliable?

Peter, I am no expert but if fenix, millermods, etc can put a cree or seoul in the same size package, why couldn't you do the same thing? Even if its single stage, you'd still get a whiter tint and a better runtime, no?

I have a feeling I'm about to get whacked for repeating a question that has been asked a million times. If thats the case, let me apologize in advance.

nuggett08-23-2007 04:01 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Well, at least build SOMETHING!
Anything from ARC would be nice.

sawlight08-23-2007 05:30 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

Again, my plea is something in the 10ish (less is fine) lumens area, with a ten hour run time. I am hearing more and more demand for this on this site, so I am not alone. I don't care what the emiter is, as long is isn't purple or angry blue!! I want something with a white tint, that will work half decent outside as well as inside. I can buy lights this size all day long that pu out 100 lumens, but they only run for 20 min. or less!! Great for wow factor, but mostly usless after that!
That would tickle me pink, and I believe, stay true to the original design idea. I also repectfull thank you Peter for asking us!

BentHeadTX08-23-2007 06:44 PMRe: arc aaa rebel

If one Arc AAA can't do it all (and it won't) make two Arc AAAs

Arc AAA Traditional one with the upgraded Nichia but don't overdrive the LED. Figure if it gets hit with 25mA, the output would be around 5 to 8 lumens and the output would be whiter.

Arc AAA-P Premium edition running the Rebel and two stages for 3 lumens (original AAA output) and 20 lumens (original Arc LS output) on high. This would require a lens, a longer and slightly larger head and some way to switch it. The head is easy, the switching would be madness.

Maybe a ring in the head that would rotate and magnetically trip the two levels? Think SF U2. Not sure how small you can get a neodynium magnet, a sensor or two and a ball bearing to lock the setting in a head so small. Use the space under the larger reflector to squeeze them in?

Even if Peter builds a two-stage AAA Rebel, how much could the market withstand for the significant increase in price?

Peter (over on the old CPFMP thread) said:

If you, like me want the same throw, brightness, form factor and runtime but only want to change the tint, how would you suggest it be done?

Click to expand...

I don't see this as so complicated. Brand P uses a led they call "snow" which fixes the Nichia's tint problems. They have been extensively tested on CPF and they are about as bright as the Nichias. At most there is a tiny difference. I don't think brand P manufacturers its own leds. They must buy them from someplace. Find out where, buy the same leds, and use them. Don't change the Arc AAA in any way other than that. The Arc AA on the other hand is maybe more ripe for a redesign involving a Luxeon Rebel or whatever, as described earlier.

Here is my review of Brand P's old Arc AAA clone from a while back (from right after Arc LLC folded). Direct comparison against the Arc is in the last comment of the review thread. Yes it's dimmer but that's because it's lower powered:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/72334

By plopping the new version of that led into the Arc AAA, brightness and runtime should be about the same as the AAA but with the tint cleaned up. Maybe the beam pattern is a little narrower but it's not that important. The UK 2AAA eLED with its focusing optic has a much more concentrated beam than the Arc AAA, but since there is still substantial spill (unlike the old Inova X1 or whatever) it is fine.

paulr said:

I don't see this as so complicated. Brand P uses a led they call "snow" which fixes the Nichia's tint problems. They have been extensively tested on CPF and they are about as bright as the Nichias. At most there is a tiny difference. I don't think brand P manufacturers its own leds. They must buy them from someplace. Find out where, buy the same leds, and use them. Don't change the Arc AAA in any way other than that. The Arc AA on the other hand is maybe more ripe for a redesign involving a Luxeon Rebel or whatever, as described earlier.

Here is my review of Brand P's old Arc AAA clone from a while back (from right after Arc LLC folded). Direct comparison against the Arc is in the last comment of the review thread. Yes it's dimmer but that's because it's lower powered:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/72334

By plopping the new version of that led into the Arc AAA, brightness and runtime should be about the same as the AAA but with the tint cleaned up. Maybe the beam pattern is a little narrower but it's not that important. The UK 2AAA eLED with its focusing optic has a much more concentrated beam than the Arc AAA, but since there is still substantial spill (unlike the old Inova X1 or whatever) it is fine.

Click to expand...

Boy this is getting old.......

Peter must be really stupid and I must be a blind faith ARC cultist. That's such an EASY SOLUTION. Why didn't he think of that???

Or did he?

PETER:"here's a quick summary:

things to improve while staying true to the Arc-AAA goals:
- beam quality (no such led exists to my knowledge, there are leds with a better tint but they are dimmer and don't last as long, people say they will buy them but our sales figures tell otherwise)"

I have no idea what other tests have been done on the "other LED" other than the ones run by ARC in the IS. From what I remember the ARC was not slightly brighter, but substantially brighter. I do remember other discussions by the other manufacturer trying to establish candlepower as the standard for measuring our lights as opposed to lumens while they claimed that their lights were as bright or brighter than ARC.

Let me make it perfectly clear that I know very little about the current products of the other manufacturer. I don't visit their website or forum and the only product that I've personally seen is their original prototype that was sent out to members for feedback. They've never received a penny from me and they never will even if they make $30 AAA 2 stage 100 lumen light; it's a matter of principal for me.

You're a longtime respected contributing member here on CPF with some great input, but your simple "answer" to Peter's question is not based on accurate facts, just false opinions, which is the root of the frustration in the first place.

I guess this where I get flamed for being an "ARC cultist," but nothing in Peter's post is new. I figure that when a new LED comes out that will improve the ARC AAA without compromise, it'll be utilized. I figure that he knows about new offerings way before we do.

I think that BentHead hit on a possible direction to please some of this crowd. Make limited versions in one time runs with variations and warranty them for a year. Make less than demand - it'll stir up ARC frenzy again, they'll be depleted immediately, so inventory won't be an issue. Any runs that have substantial demand for more, you can choose to cater to or not. One year warranty should take care of "less than" Nicha durablity and shouldn't be an issue to seekers of Brand x LEDs since that's their warranty anyway.

Brand P still offers the old fashioned white leds with the blue tint but as far as I can tell from CPF discussion, nobody buys them. I'm sure they sell more in "snow" than every other color put together. I currently have 4 of them in snow, one of them a 3-led model. The Snow23 and Snow29 leds have been tested extensively in the Flashlight Electronics forum and Snow29 output is comparable to Nichia CS. They are a little bit more fade-prone after long use when overdriven, but who do you know who puts 1000's of hours on a pocket flashlight anyway? I've had my original Arc AAA for about 4 years now and it's on maybe its fifth battery (though admittedly I haven't edc'd it in a year or so).

I just can't see getting alarmed if my existing Arc AAA fades by 25% or 50% after 5+ years of heavy use (which it hasn't been getting anyway). The O-rings, solder blob contact, foam pad, and thread lube will all be shot by then anyway. And the LED is ALREADY obsolete (it's about half as bright as the current Arc4 incarnation), and according to LRI there's a new Nichia led coming out that's almost 2x as efficient as the current CS leds.

I think the simplest way to reassure anyone about LED fading is just offer to replace faded leds under warranty. I believe brand P has a lifetime warranty though I can't read their stupid Flash web site to check. So if one or two lights a year come back for repair/replacement with faded leds, just build that into the cost structure.

Finally there's no rule that says that the Luxeon Rebel is required to be run at 1 watt. Running it at 30 mA in an AAA light might work out just fine. It might require some slight mechanical redesign of the PC board and head milling but it would still be basically the same Arc AAA. Then there could be a high power version at 150 mA or so, resulting in the usual CPF buying decision of "buy both".

I know what LED they are using. I ordered samples and built a special rig to test them side by side with the Nichia CS at the same current. I found that although these LEDs produced a whiter beam, they were producing half as many lumens at the same current and failed several times faster. Yes, the newer units are better, but the newer nichias are better as well.

Now, I can sell a product with an LED that fails significantly sooner as long as I am up front about it. Over the years, we have offered various other white LEDs and runtimes in the Arc-AAA, sales always favor the brightest product. I have learned this the hard way. But people keep saying, "offer this or that as an option and let the market decide". And I am sure they will buy at least 1. but it turns out the people who agree with them may only number 24. Oh, and when I said this before, a couple of people tried to rally up interest and get petition lists formed, polls, etc. That was vindicating for me. But then it all dropped below the CPF radar and the lesson is repeated.

-

btw, I did some more analysis on Eric Miller's mods. If I could go so far as to say that these are actually pretty good. The modification improves the tint and brightness while not increasing the size of the light nor reducing the runtime or throw (2-stage) and durability is reported to me as pretty good. Eric hand makes these for about $80-100, depending on the options you select. If we took a similiar design to production, I estimate it would retail for about $150. This is with paying our people a fair wage and with normal overhead costs. It seems to me that Eric is performing a labor of love and charging below a fair price for the work he does on the mod. I can also tell you his volume is low compared to the Arc-AAA premium and the market would be even smaller at $150. This product would take a long time to pay off its capital expenditures. Some new part in the future may change all of this.

The modders are always going to have the advantage of their willingness to charge lower margins and do charity work. We do charity work as well, but for actual charities. I venture to say that because we focus on making a viable business, our charity work is more effective.

There is also a celebrity factor involved. Some modders sacrifice their time, being paid a substandard wage and enduring long work hours so that they can get accolades from people. Some have gotten tired of this after awhile.

The real winner is the guy with the disposable income who picks up a labor of love at a discount.

There are a few modders that actually do quite well. They've been doing this for awhile and they charge the right amount and target the right niches.

Like I said earlier, I am preparing a minor update to the Arc-AAA. We are also preparing to release the UV version as well. The UV version will be first.

I think history has shown that I am looking for much the same features as many of you are and that I am willing to spend quite a bit of time exploring various options. You guys haven't seen everything I have done while attempting to improve the Arc-AAA. It is a fairly balanced product as this point. It not a panacea of course and you will find localized eddies of products that may work better for some people. I am not saying I don't want to talk about it, I am just wishing for some new information. I like talking with your guys, as evidenced by this forum.

peter

duplicate posting

Great post, Peter. :thumbsup:

thanks Peter, looking forward to the updated Arc AAA as well as the new Arc UV.

Thank you Peter.
I am thinking about buying one Arc AAA-P, but I am not sure if it's better to wait for the new version? :shrug: I can't afford buying one now and a new version later. I know, it's not going to be a big change in the design but I'd still prefer to have the latest version.
Is there a chance for a rough estimate - how many weeks/months until the new version? I know, many asked before...

PS. Is there a cheaper international shipping option than Fedex? I tried to go through the checkout on your website and it calculated $64 for delivery to Slovakia.

Thank you.
Sorry for little offtopic.

Peter, IF I'm interpreting the crowd's pleading correctly, you'd have to come up with:

- Something in AAA form-factor
- Something brighter
- Something with whiter tint
- Something with 2 output levels?
- Something with the durability of *the* ArcAAA

That doesn't sound like *the* ArcAAA at all (sure as hell doesn't comply with your design features for *the* ArcAAA).

I think the crowd wants something completely different from you, in the AAA form-factor.

This is not about re-designing or improving *the* ArcAAA, it's about getting something new from you.

I hope the Arc AAA head ride height problems get fixed. Oh, and what GreenLED said =). Something new would be pretty cool

Wow that must be the end of the world, or at least you should be able to see the end of the world from there.

Daniel_sk said:

Thank you Peter.

PS. Is there a cheaper international shipping option than Fedex? I tried to go through the checkout on your website and it calculated $64 for delivery to Slovakia.

Thank you.
Sorry for little offtopic.

Click to expand...

Yes, according to the Fedex shipping cost it looks like I live on the ISS space station... Actually I get bigger envelopes from US for $5 (USPS, uninsured but no problems yet after a few years).

Peter, stay with the Arc AAA goals. I am sure many people outside CPF are searching for a simple, single-stage, keychain sized and quality flashlight. I am just deciding if to buy the Arc AAA-P now or to wait for the updated version?...

Daniel_sk said:

Yes, according to the Fedex shipping cost it looks like I live on the ISS space station... Actually I get bigger envelopes from US for $5 (USPS, uninsured but no problems yet after a few years).

Peter, stay with the Arc AAA goals. I am sure many people outside CPF are searching for a simple, single-stage, keychain sized and quality flashlight. I am just deciding if to buy the Arc AAA-P now or to wait for the updated version?...

Click to expand...

There's another option - buy both!

Mr. Gransee
I Re-opened a theme that has over the years caused you aggravation. For that I apologize (post and runs are not acceptable anywhere). I know you are near the first to know of new developments in LED efficiency I was , however, merely wondering if there was chance that the current leapfrogging of efficiencies in the "high power" realm of emitters would, could, or (should?) lead to a new and improved version of the first (just now realized that the proprietress of this forum was olde country) torch that I spent more than $20 on. Mea culpa if I added any stress to your life. And to you deary that gave me a place to learn even more about my off hobby of light, I had no problem with the earlier place of this forum nor have I of the present.

greenLED said:

Peter, IF I'm interpreting the crowd's pleading correctly, you'd have to come up with:

- Something in AAA form-factor
- Something brighter
- Something with whiter tint
- Something with 2 output levels?
- Something with the durability of *the* ArcAAA

That doesn't sound like *the* ArcAAA at all (sure as hell doesn't comply with your design features for *the* ArcAAA).

I think the crowd wants something completely different from you, in the AAA form-factor.

This is not about re-designing or improving *the* ArcAAA, it's about getting something new from you.

Click to expand...

I think everyone wants AAA form factor (don't change it) and the durability of "the" Arc AAA. We all want whiter tint if there we can get that without a significant downside, and we're having a somewhat complex discussion of whether that downside exists or not. I think we all agree that "the" Arc AAA is a minimal sized, KISS light with 5+ hours of runtime optimized for use with a common alkaline AAA battery, and anything that makes it want exotic batteries (lithium or nimh), adds UI complexity, shortens the runtime, or changes the form factor, is not in "the" spirit. There are some who want a brighter light (beyond what one gets for "free" from advancing LED technology) by cranking up the power; that DOES involve tradeoffs with downsides and departs somewhat from "the" Arc AAA concept, but Peter (bless him!!) now sounds open to making something like that as a companion product.

I'm still not persuaded about supposed the "snow" led problems or lack of sales success. I don't remember Arc ever offering a snow led or any led with good white tint in the AAA. I know given a choice between a bright led with awful tint, and 20% less lumens with good neutral tint, I'll take the good tint, but if the 20% lumen penalty only gets me a choice between awful tint and slightly less awful tint, I'll keep the lumens. And I think the only AAA tint choice Arc ever offered was between "really terrible" and "merely pretty bad". Never "good" (like the snow). I do agree that most of us wouldn't take a 50% lumen penalty no matter how good the tint was.

I went back and looked at some of the snow29 test threads and it looks like those leds do degrade significantly after a few dozen hours of operation at 40 mA, but hold up reasonably well at 30 mA. Even at 40 mA though they're good for a few hundred hours before the degradation gets really noticable, and who runs one of these lights that long? Again, I'm convinced brand P sells more "snow" leds than every other color put together, just by what I see on CPF and on BST.

It also seems to me that brand P may have their assembly process organized a bit better, since they can put whatever color led you want into a light, or use a special led that you send them if you request it. I don't think Arc or Peak is installing these leds in mechanized flow solder operations or anything like that and I don't think Peak is inventoring assembled lights in all those colors, so I think when a customer requests (say) a Matterhorn with a green led, Peak is somehow managing to include that request in that day's (or week's or whatever) assembly run, so the technician pulls the appropriate colored led from the parts bin, puts it into the light, and it gets out to the customer, just like the local deli manages to keep the orders straight for all different kinds of sandwiches for different customers at lunch hour. They are also (it seems to me) doing some very small runs (like a few tens of units) of certain machined parts like the cut-down stainless steel Matterhorn body tubes, though machining is a special expertise of theirs so maybe that's not easy to duplicate. I don't think they're doing any of this as a labor of love. What strikes me about that company is while they are good at engineering and they seem to enjoy dealing with CPF'ers, they are not flashaholics themselves, they don't really understand flashlights like Peter does, and their best products are either when they copy Arc the most closely or else near-accidents. In any case, they are all business. So anyway, maybe Arc (as new-LS development gets less hectic) can look into ways of offering a variety of led types and colors.

As for a brighter AAA that burns batteries faster--well don't change the existing AAA to do that, but by all means, adding a new product is a great idea. The new LS is a technical tour de force but some of us prefer very simple lights. I noticed in another thread that I can't think of a single occasion in my entire life when it was important to me to use an EDC light for more than 5 minutes in one day. That includes the 2003 blackout when I used my Arc AAA as an area light for several hours: it wasn't important, I only did it because it was a "shining" flashaholic moment and I had tons of spare batteries. Therefore I'm quite happy with the idea of a 25 lumen Arc AAA-Rebel with 1 hour of runtime that wants a NiMH or L92 cell and is seriously non-optimized (but can still work somewhat) on an alkaline. Would that make me give up my 5 hour 5 lumen alkaline-optimized model? No! Buy both!!! Making the 25-lumen version a 2-level might be ok but I wouldn't even ask for it (an extended 1-lumen "moon mode" would be terrific though). The KISS principle makes me to some extent prefer two separate lights for the two levels. These lights are so small that a pair of them (high and low powered) would be great travelling companions. And of course there should be an AA version of the brighter model, that runs well on an alkaline AA cell. 25 torch lumens with a Rebel100 is around 250 ma(?) from the battery which an alkaline AA can handle easily.

I will dig up links to the old LED forum snow29 testing threads sometime later.

paulr said:

I went back and looked at some of the snow29 test threads and it looks like those leds do degrade significantly after a few dozen hours of operation at 40 mA, but hold up reasonably well at 30 mA. Even at 40 mA though they're good for a few hundred hours before the degradation gets really noticable, and who runs one of these lights that long?

Click to expand...

Paul, it's obvious you're willing to accept lights with shorter lifespans; I'm not. Assuming the ArcAAA's output were tweaked to 30mA, people would then complain about the light not being bright enough (they're doing that already!), regardless of the tint.

The only other 5mm LED I know of that can take higher currents is the THC3 (designed to run at 80mA, IIRC). The tint is yellowish compared to other "white" LED's I've seen. I'm sure Peter's tried it as well, and discarded it for some valid reason.

paulr said:

I think everyone wants AAA form factor (don't change it) and the durability of "the" Arc AAA. We all want whiter tint if there we can get that without a significant downside, and we're having a somewhat complex discussion of whether that downside exists or not. I think we all agree that "the" Arc AAA is a minimal sized, KISS light with 5+ hours of runtime optimized for use with a common alkaline AAA battery, and anything that makes it want exotic batteries (lithium or nimh), adds UI complexity, shortens the runtime, or changes the form factor, is not in "the" spirit. There are some who want a brighter light (beyond what one gets for "free" from advancing LED technology) by cranking up the power; that DOES involve tradeoffs with downsides and departs somewhat from "the" Arc AAA concept, but Peter (bless him!!) now sounds open to making something like that as a companion product.

I'm still not persuaded about supposed the "snow" led problems or lack of sales success. I don't remember Arc ever offering a snow led or any led with good white tint in the AAA. I know given a choice between a bright led with awful tint, and 20% less lumens with good neutral tint, I'll take the good tint, but if the 20% lumen penalty only gets me a choice between awful tint and slightly less awful tint, I'll keep the lumens. And I think the only AAA tint choice Arc ever offered was between "really terrible" and "merely pretty bad". Never "good" (like the snow). I do agree that most of us wouldn't take a 50% lumen penalty no matter how good the tint was.

I went back and looked at some of the snow29 test threads and it looks like those leds do degrade significantly after a few dozen hours of operation at 40 mA, but hold up reasonably well at 30 mA. Even at 40 mA though they're good for a few hundred hours before the degradation gets really noticable, and who runs one of these lights that long? Again, I'm convinced brand P sells more "snow" leds than every other color put together, just by what I see on CPF and on BST.

It also seems to me that brand P may have their assembly process organized a bit better, since they can put whatever color led you want into a light, or use a special led that you send them if you request it. I don't think Arc or Peak is installing these leds in mechanized flow solder operations or anything like that and I don't think Peak is inventoring assembled lights in all those colors, so I think when a customer requests (say) a Matterhorn with a green led, Peak is somehow managing to include that request in that day's (or week's or whatever) assembly run, so the technician pulls the appropriate colored led from the parts bin, puts it into the light, and it gets out to the customer, just like the local deli manages to keep the orders straight for all different kinds of sandwiches for different customers at lunch hour. They are also (it seems to me) doing some very small runs (like a few tens of units) of certain machined parts like the cut-down stainless steel Matterhorn body tubes, though machining is a special expertise of theirs so maybe that's not easy to duplicate. I don't think they're doing any of this as a labor of love. What strikes me about that company is while they are good at engineering and they seem to enjoy dealing with CPF'ers, they are not flashaholics themselves, they don't really understand flashlights like Peter does, and their best products are either when they copy Arc the most closely or else near-accidents. In any case, they are all business. So anyway, maybe Arc (as new-LS development gets less hectic) can look into ways of offering a variety of led types and colors.

As for a brighter AAA that burns batteries faster--well don't change the existing AAA to do that, but by all means, adding a new product is a great idea. The new LS is a technical tour de force but some of us prefer very simple lights. I noticed in another thread that I can't think of a single occasion in my entire life when it was important to me to use an EDC light for more than 5 minutes in one day. That includes the 2003 blackout when I used my Arc AAA as an area light for several hours: it wasn't important, I only did it because it was a "shining" flashaholic moment and I had tons of spare batteries. Therefore I'm quite happy with the idea of a 25 lumen Arc AAA-Rebel with 1 hour of runtime that wants a NiMH or L92 cell and is seriously non-optimized (but can still work somewhat) on an alkaline. Would that make me give up my 5 hour 5 lumen alkaline-optimized model? No! Buy both!!! Making the 25-lumen version a 2-level might be ok but I wouldn't even ask for it (an extended 1-lumen "moon mode" would be terrific though). The KISS principle makes me to some extent prefer two separate lights for the two levels. These lights are so small that a pair of them (high and low powered) would be great travelling companions. And of course there should be an AA version of the brighter model, that runs well on an alkaline AA cell. 25 torch lumens with a Rebel100 is around 250 ma(?) from the battery which an alkaline AA can handle easily.

I will dig up links to the old LED forum snow29 testing threads sometime later.

Click to expand...

I thought this was the ARC forum.....I've gotta say, that personally I find your last post distasteful, disrespectful and inappropriate for this forum.

It's not enough that even YOU admit the short comings of your "great white LED" (ie, you were dead wrong), but you're "not persuaded" that ARC shouldn't use it??

As I've said before, you really need to start your OWN flashlight company.