ARC 6 Output in Lumen?

ironmace

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
7
Location
in the woods of germany
Hi,

i did not found that, maybe i overlooked it.

Can you tell me whats the Output on each Level in Lumens?

7,6, and 5 seems to be way over 100 Lumens, and they can only be used until thermal stepdown. How bright is level 4, and the others, 3,2,1

Is Level 1 low as a ARC AAA ?

Would be nice if ARC, or someone who can measure it could make a list.

Im thinking about one until Dez. 31, but i want to know about the Lumens output on each level.

Mace
 

dtsoll

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
812
Location
nebraska
Mace,
there is a listing of lumen output of the Arc6 over at arcflashlight.com. Look at the Arc6 FAQ. You will find it there. Doug:)

Level 1: <1 lumen
Level 2: 7 lumen
Level 3: 35 lumen
Level 4: 70 lumen
Level 5: 100 lumen
Level 6: at least 120 lumen
Level 7: >120 lumen

um, here it is, this is with the use of a rechargeable CR123.
 
Last edited:

ironmace

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
7
Location
in the woods of germany
Thank you,

Sorry,i did not see them on the ARC site. :candle:

On this Reviewhttp://www.cpfreviews.com/Arc6.php it shows a thermal stepdown on level 4, that should be only 70 Lumens, and 1 hour and 5 minutes are not that much, especialy after the dropdown to level 3 ~ 35lumens.

It says the runtime on Level 2 ~ 7lumens is about 3 hours and 23 minutes, could that be?
A ARC AAA DS should run 5 hours with 9lumens till 50% an a alkali AAA :thinking:

Im a bit confused about the runtimes.


Mace
 

Gransee

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 26, 2001
Messages
4,706
Location
Mesa, AZ. USA
70 lumens is still a good amount of power for this small package to dissipate. Remember when a 60 lumen light was 3 times as big and took 2 cells?

As far as runtime, it will vary from unit to unit of course and from battery to battery.

This review shows the level 2 runtime at 6.5-15.5hrs, depending on the battery used:
http://www.light-reviews.com/arc6/

This review shows a l2 runtime of over 10 hours on the K2 version: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/200292

LED museum also did a review:
http://home.att.net/~ledmuseum/ledleft.htm

The real world runtime is how long does the battery last in normal use. This question is popular for the Arc6 and the actual runtime will vary depending on how it is used. This is why I started a thread asking people how often they charge the battery for their Arc6: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/213006

Typical results were several weeks of use per charge.

If you are concerned about being stuck in a situation without a spare battery for an extended period of time, use level1. It has plenty of light for emergency use and will last for over a hundred hours.

Don't forget, the Arc6 is currently producing more lumens than any other 123 light on the market (according to my sphere tests at LSI, any one is welcome to refute this), but in a fairly small package (smaller than most 123 lights). The laws of physics get their revenge though, some of the higher levels don't run as long as they could if I used a larger housing or skimped on some of the other features.

Yes, you may find a particular 123 light that runs for longer on a particular level (the RA for example), but the extra efficiency doesn't come without a cost (size in this case) and in real world use, is the effect on how often you change the battery worth the extra weight and lower power?

peter
 
Last edited:

ironmace

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
7
Location
in the woods of germany
Hi Peter,

thanks for answering on this Topic.

I need L3 or sometimes L4 Output when walking through the woods.
L2 is not bright enough for my eyes to walk on uneven ground, but thats maybe just me.

Seems that i expected to much, or a different type of Torch.

I still like the Design, maybe someday we can see a Rev2 on the ARC6 with a 5mm longer copper heatsink, and ................

...................... a 18650 Piston and Sleeve. :wave:

As long as it takes, i still have a modded LS.


Mace
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
......Don't forget, the Arc6 is currently producing more lumens than any other 123 light on the market (according to my sphere tests at LSI, any one is welcome to refute this)........
peter

Well, I guess Gatlight V3 Ti with V-bin will outperform Arc6.
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
At 170-ish lumens vs. 180 lumens out of the front for the production Arc6 at level 7?
How, exactly?

No Sir :) Not properly.
Gatlight Titanium I do own (V binned) goes well beyond 225Lumens out of the front (AW RCR). But as I said elsewhere it costs 150USD more.
 

orcinus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
1,002
Location
Croatia
Soooo... The losses in the optics are just 6.25%?
How did they do that?

Edit: Just to elaborate, as text doesn't always convey the subtext - i'm not arguing, i'm really curious. Especially since it looks leaky as hell (AFAIK, you can clearly see when it's turned on from the sides).
 
Last edited:

orcinus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
1,002
Location
Croatia
Continuing discussion from elsewhere...

I've read all with great interest and no narrow minded approach at all.
Arc6 looks like suffering from somehow bad output/thermal protection/runtime interaction .
http://www.cpfreviews.com/Arc6.php
"The runtime for Arc6 with AW RCR123 battery on high is about 2 minutes 40 seconds till 50%".
This is simply ridiculous when compared to Gatlight V3, which delivers far better cooling by its very design.
Yet I must admit Arc6 is sold at 250USD and Gatlight V3 Titanium at just below 400USD.

Seems like you didn't really read everything with enough interest. ;)

If you did, you would've noticed that it's 2 minutes 40 seconds till thermal step-down, not 50%. Regarding cooling and thermal management, Gatlight, admittedly, does have better cooling. At the expense of size and the awkward design and ergonomics. And, AFAIK, it doesn't have any thermal management, so you could - conceivably - be within a deg C of burning out your emitter (or considerably shortening its life) and be no wiser about it.

Apart from that, there are two key elements that make up the Arc6 that you seem to keep ignoring - size (it's essentially, a slightly fatter P1D-sized light) and dynamic range (0.7 lumens to 180 lumens). Both elements limit what can be done with thermal design and efficiency. There's also the matter of tint control which, i strongly suspect, further reduces the efficiency, trading it for a nicer real-life use experience (no or almost no tint shifts at extremely low and extremely high output levels).

But one thing is left to be answered by you: "Output drops very quickly on levels 5 through 7 due to thermal protection, and overall short runtime relative to output intensity." always from www.light-reviews.com and other sources confirm.
This is NOT what I do expect from a 250USD price tag flashlight.

Fact #1: Highest levels are inefficient by design. Consider them a "burst" level of sorts, designed to push as much output as possible from the emitter, while keeping it safe. I.e. not allowing it to degrade or impair the flashlight's performance during its lifetime.

Fact #2: Again, Smaller Flashlight + Higher Dynamic Range = Lower Efficiency. It's an either-or situation. For some tasks a small light with a large spread of usable output levels available at a touch of the finger is irreplacable. For other tasks it's the high efficiency and the ability to run at highest output levels continuously. Both ends of the scale come with their own penalties.
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
Soooo... The losses in the optics are just 6.25%?
How did they do that?

Edit: Just to elaborate, as text doesn't always convey the subtext - i'm not arguing, i'm really curious. Especially since it looks leaky as hell (AFAIK, you can clearly see when it's turned on from the sides).

Considering optics alone, i.e. lens without reflector, I'll make a cross-comparison: having owned a Leica Ultravid 8x42 HD binocular, where lenses are far more than one, I've learned that light transmission with proper treatments may well exceed 98%, even when multiple coatings are in place.
Now the reflector: Gatlight V3 implements SSC led, which solves one huge issue by itself. Light beam is free of artifacts and rings that are peculiar to Cree's XR-E. Thus the manifacturer may well concentrate on optimizing reflector for light transmission, rather than beam quality and light trasmission. By its very design, if you observe led/reflector assembly of the Gatlight, you'll notice that the lens is a cone that actually allows the SSC led to spread directly some of its power on the sides, unfiltered by reflector. This makes lumens, oh yeah, and here they are, without any other performance decrease than lens light transmission power.
Once again, this would not have been possible with Cree leds.
The cone shape is possible because Gatlight has not the bezel/head as we're currently expected to know them, thus the reflector is not sunk into them any longer.

Gatlight can actually proficiently use RCR batts, even if the tech specs on their site don't specify (yet it is mentioned on FAQ). You'll lose the Low battery warning though. One important note: with RCR batts the max setting will actually overdrive the led, so just a teensie weensie less is to be used.

The heat problem: if you go the 1A way (or even less) with current leds in 1x123 (or RCR) form factor you'll have to struggle against heat, which brings about to a dropdown in led's performances and reliability as well.
I recall from LuxeonIII times, that this problem could be addressed with output dropdown. I still own my beloved HDS Ultimate 60XRGT which behaved that way. Still it has to be surpassed ar far as electronic thermal protection/output/electronic regulation are concerned.
But this resembles to me the way Mercedes solved the the early A class rollover issue. By means of introducing an electronic control that is known as ESP. Less expensive than an in deep chassis and weight distribution reeingeenering. A workaround. Not a solution.
More than this: each instance of an electronic control adds to the overall complexity of implemented electronics and thus to their overall performances (I'm not entitled to judge their reliability). A common rule is: what it is not present, will not break.
Arc6 -as reviews say- is no exception.
So, what is the best merit of Gatlight? Electronic Thermal control is no longer needed simply thanks of a clever and simple concept: frame is a frame, not a closed space. Air is allowed to circulate freely, thus cooling the hot areas (even very close to led itself). You don't need to keep it in your hands so that blood circulation could be exploited, thus even tailstanding at full steam is not a problem. The classic 'Columbus egg'.

As far as reviews state, HDS 60XRGT delivers a better balance of thermal control/output/electronics performance vs the ideal top performance possible. Arc6 needs to be refined to this extent. IMHO.

Seems like you didn't really read everything with enough interest. ;)

If you did, you would've noticed that it's 2 minutes 40 seconds till thermal step-down, not 50%. Regarding cooling and thermal management, Gatlight, admittedly, does have better cooling. At the expense of size and the awkward design and ergonomics. And, AFAIK, it doesn't have any thermal management, so you could - conceivably - be within a deg C of burning out your emitter (or considerably shortening its life) and be no wiser about it.

Apart from that, there are two key elements that make up the Arc6 that you seem to keep ignoring - size (it's essentially, a slightly fatter P1D-sized light) and dynamic range (0.7 lumens to 180 lumens). Both elements limit what can be done with thermal design and efficiency. There's also the matter of tint control which, i strongly suspect, further reduces the efficiency, trading it for a nicer real-life use experience (no or almost no tint shifts at extremely low and extremely high output levels).

I did notice that it is 2 and 40 till thermal stepdown.
Yet, in general: ain't no use in having a 200+Lumens monster when you can enjoy them only for a while. Wait! If they are there for 60USD it is more than ok, but at a 250USD price tag I raise my expectations a little bit. But hey, that's me.
Tint control: I analyzed three Gatlights V3 V-bin with a spectrum analizer at my local optic store: they were nearly identical, not close, identical.
So tint shift may be a performance inhibitor at Arc6 HQ....but admittedly gatlight costs a BUNCH more.
All in all, Arc6 really intrigues me!!!! But actually actually actually! And yet is not enough to say how much.
Yet IMHO I would like to say that thermal control/runtime/efficiency should be reworked from scratch, or Lumen output reduced.

After all we're talking about EDC lights, not tactical or Emergency Rescue ones. We don't expect the best Lumen score, nor the best throw. Other lights are out for there. Yet we'd expect a steady Lumen performance at each output setting. Would thermal control be delivered either electronically or mechanically. Something like "I know I can score such a level of light at such a setting, and for x time".
If we agree on this, then we can have mutual consensus on the conclusion that the greatest bang-for-bucks is SS2, which, a the cost of slightly less output, does NOT need electonically managed thermal control, and, consequently, rocks a steady output graphic at each output level.:twothumbs
 
Last edited:

orcinus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
1,002
Location
Croatia
Wait, wait, wait...

The Gatlight has a reflector?
Doesn't it have a TIR optic?
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
Wait, wait, wait...

The Gatlight has a reflector?
Doesn't it have a TIR optic?

Yes: I forgot to use the proper term which is H.P.R. I said "reflector" because it isn't an actual T.I.R. optic. As above said, some of the light goes sideways without being caught into optics. Optics are defined as HPR (Hyper Prysmatic Reflector), thus they call reflector.
To my knowledge TIR optics are the ones implemented by Inova.
 

orcinus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
1,002
Location
Croatia
Those are just different trademarks... AFAIK, they are all based on the effect of total internal reflection, hence TIR.

Anyway, i find it odd how the losses can be so low with that side-spill from the optics. How tight is the beam?
 

Gransee

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 26, 2001
Messages
4,706
Location
Mesa, AZ. USA
If you send me the light I can have it tested at LSI for NIST traceable lumen output. I have tested gatlights before.

peter
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
Those are just different trademarks... AFAIK, they are all based on the effect of total internal reflection, hence TIR.

Anyway, i find it odd how the losses can be so low with that side-spill from the optics. How tight is the beam?

beam is not a tight spot, I'd define it a medium beam.
I've no instruments to measure its wideness, but as time allows, I'll take a snapshot.
Usually TIR optics produce very narrow beams.

@Gransee: shipping my Gatlight from Italy to USA is out of question as I would have to send it fully insured via UPS or DHL with really onerous costs.
I do rely on your readings instead: i.e. should you have a V-binned Gatlight3 at hand, it would be very useful if you could compare them as far as maximum output alone is concerned, but even more important to know how long they can perform their max output with no added cooling.
This could give you some ideas to eventually mechanically improve thermal handling.
As I stated before having a 200+ monster for <3min is not my ticket for 250 bucks. I do acknowledge that Arc6 has advantages over Gatlight V3, but current thermal/circuitry/runtime combined issues as various reviews say, are actually keeping off many potential customers.
More than this, the way human eye perceives Lumen increase makes it barely noticeably the difference from 170 (SS2) to 200lumens (at least in a closed space environment), but the stepdown after less than 3minutes will be noticed for sure ;)
 

EEG

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
75
Location
Carbon Hill, AL
I would have liked the ARC6 to have a 120-150 lumen high for one hour minimum.

The styling is great. It is essentially more of a mass produced McGizmo PD but the output/runtime is a huge obstacle for me to get by to put down $300.
 

member 6142

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
457
I would have liked the ARC6 to have a 120-150 lumen high for one hour minimum.

The styling is great. It is essentially more of a mass produced McGizmo PD but the output/runtime is a huge obstacle for me to get by to put down $300.

Nice to read my thought is not alone :)
If such an output for such an amount of time is what you're looking for, then two flashlight I would recommend:
http://ralights.com/index.php?id=Clicky (the 140Lumen model)
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=186049

Edit:
The second one is pretty damn close to 120Lumen figure at level 11 (two up remaining, ten down, should you ever need 'em) for 1h
the first one gives you 1h at 100Lumens
 
Last edited:
Top