Cree MC-E/Seoul P7 P60 drop-ins

I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around these.

You mean I can actually get a 800-900 lumen (at bulb) emitter into my P60 compatible lights?

Maybe I'm showing my age on CPF, but I come from a world where 120 (output) lumens with the P61 was considered 'great' and 200 lumens was 'awesome'. Derating the new drop-in using our 0.75 formula, that is still 600+ output lumens.

So this means I can get a light that is more powerful than a 10 watt HID, and similar to the M6 in terms of power? :huh: sorry M6 folk. You and I knew that technology's relentless march was gonna change a lot of things. In a while my ROP will be put out to pasture too

Looking at this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229637

I'm very very impressed by what our modders have managed to achieve and how far LED technology has come. The 2-cell EDC will never be the same again. And neither will my Surefire C2!

KevinL said:

You mean I can actually get a 800-900 lumen (at bulb) emitter into my P60 compatible lights?

Click to expand...

I don't think so. 800-900lm means 2,8-3A to the emitter, high drain for batteries and lots of heat that small module cannot dissipate. Besides 26,5mm is too small to focus P7/MC-E.

Read post #1 and post #3
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229135

No P7 or MC-E P60 drop-in has made over 500 out the front lumens. It didn't matter if the current at the tail was 2.5A or 4.5A, they just can't cool the quad emitter to benefit from the potential lumens.


In a nutshell...At 2.5~3.5A at the tail A quad emitter will make out the front as tested by MRGman.

• a single IMR 16340 (CR123 size) 330~350 lumens
• a single IMR 18650 make 350~380 out the front
• a single li-on AW C cell makes 410 out the front
• 2 18650 cells powering MC-E regulated by Malkoff 470 lumens**This is the recored holder.

What good are 900 emitter lumens if you can only see 330 out the front?

bigchelis said:

Read post #1 and post #3
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229135

No P7 or MC-E P60 drop-in has made over 500 out the front lumens. It didn't matter if the current at the tail was 2.5A or 4.5A, they just can't cool the quad emitter to benefit from the potential lumens.


In a nutshell...At 2.5~3.5A at the tail A quad emitter will make out the front as tested by MRGman.

• a single IMR 16340 (CR123 size) 330~350 lumens
  [*]a single IMR 18650 make 350~380 out the front
• a single li-on AW C cell makes 410 out the front
• 2 18650 cells powering MC-E regulated by Malkoff 470 lumens**This is the recored holder.

What good are 900 emitter lumens if you can only see 330 out the front?

Click to expand...

From Post #1 of the thread you quoted, here are 3 Surefire 6Ps with a single IMR 18650 that exceed 400 lumens

Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass

So your point that I've highlighted in red seems to be inaccurate. :shrug:

From the figures, it seems like 450 lumens is quite easily achievable in cool-white P7 or MC-E P60 drop-ins.

For the much bigger lights, the average output seems to be about 600 lumens.

So we have to to accept about 150 lumens less for a much more compact and pocketable light.

That seems to be a pretty decent trade-off in my opinion.

The OP is quite right. I joined CPF at a similar time and 450 lumens output in a 2-cell sized light was fantasy back then. :thumbsup:

Thanks for clearing that up, guys

400 lumens or thereabouts OTF is still pretty decent - it is far more than we have ever been able to expect. My Surefire P91 incan modules are only delivering 200+ OTF with A19 extender and 2x17500 li-ion.

My C2 is still gonna benefit big time from one of these, it currently has a very ordinary Cree drop-in of unknown bin. Decently bright, but not 400lu bright.

For comparison's sake, my Mag2HID, 8xAA driving a regulated Welch-Allyn 500 (emitter) lumen Solarc 10W HID would deliver just 375lu OTF using 0.75 derating formula. That's what it took to get 375lu 'in the old days'

easilyled said:

From Post #1 of the thread you quoted, here are 3 Surefire 6Ps with a single IMR 18650 that exceed 400 lumens

Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass

So your point that I've highlighted in red seems to be inaccurate. :shrug:

From the figures, it seems like 450 lumens is quite easily achievable in cool-white P7 or MC-E P60 drop-ins.

For the much bigger lights, the average output seems to be about 600 lumens.

So we have to to accept about 150 lumens less for a much more compact and pocketable light.

That seems to be a pretty decent trade-off in my opinion.

The OP is quite right. I joined CPF at a similar time and 450 lumens output in a 2-cell sized light was fantasy back then. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

The warm readings are the 1 second readings MrGman does and the Turn-on are instant peak lumen readings that our eyes will never capture or see, but his equipment can capture it.


That is why I only mentioned the warm readings, which on this MC-E (which I own) was 406 lumens, but dropped fast from there due to 4.5A at the tail That is right over 4A at the tail with a direct drive MC-E P60 style courtesy of Malkoff.

The 480 lumens was with no bezel at all.. This was the initial testing where we couldn't figure out why the MC-E wasn't making 700 plus lumens, so MrGman went through great lenghts including testing the color spectrum at his lab, but at the end it was the heatsink.


Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________480__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_No Bezel__(DD=direct drive)
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________457__turn-on____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated Glass,
Malkoff MC-E_W_DD,________406__warm,_____________1_IMR 18650,_________SureFire 6P_ Bezel AR coated glass,

406 split second lumens, but you are back to low 300 within a minute sorry, but thruth is thruth and I own that MC-E DD so I wish it was true. This is also why you see 3 minute readings now.


Nailbender P7 Drop in,________427__turn-on,___________1_18650 LI unprotected__Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,
Nailbender P7 Drop in,________357__warm_____________1_18650 LI unprotected__Solarforce L2 Host, AR coated glass,


You see the difference between peak turn-on milli seconds to the warm 1~3 second reading, then it just keeps dropping due to heat and the direct drive nature of the beast. On the plus side the current was only 2.8 to 3.0A at the tail. Much lower than the 4.5A the MC-E from Malkoff made. I purchased both of them for testing.

Here is the Nailbender P7 P60 drop-in and direct drive, with the only thing changing was the cells. We used the same UCL lens bezel and P60 P7 drop-in. We did get over 500 lumens for a split 3 seconds using 3 C NiMH Tenergy cells and a fivemega 3C hosts. I purchased the fivemega and cells in search of why no 700 lumens. So, thrut me after spending 1,000's on lights to test why we are not seeing the numbers; I more than anyone want a true 700 out the front for at least a minute, but no.:mecry:

Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___547.7______3 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___459.8_____30 sec_______, Just 30 seconds later and we were down 100 plus lumens.
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___441.1_____60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___422.4____120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7_D26 Mod__,__Fivemega 3C_________3 C Tenergy,___409.3____180
sec_______,

Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______1X18650,_____360.0______3 sec_______,



Nailbender P7__________,__Solar, AR Glass_______2 CR123 Pri___450.5______3 sec_______, Direct drive P7 w/ 2 pirmaries is okay because of battery sag, but the lumens drop in heart beat.


I just purchased one of these in hopes of getting a P60 drop-in in a 6P size hosts to get 500 plus out the front.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/233442
I think the heatsink in it looks like it will help.

Still acceptable. Thanks for advising me that lumen output drops as heat builds up. Previously, (at least during my time on CPF) not a lot of work was done to quantify the impacts of heat on lumen output, although manufacturer datasheets do have graphs of flux vs temperature.

Size does matter (says my 3200 (emitter) lumen HID spotlight - that is not temperature sensitive though the spotlight is a bit....large.....for EDC!)

bigchelis, one would expect small direct-drive lights to drop quickly due to their lack of regulation causing initial overheating in an inadequate
area to dissipate the heat.

However if a smaller light had a regulated driver and was driven to a conservative 1.8A, for example,
I think it would achieve in the neighbourhood of 400 lumens for quite a long time,
especially if a cool-white M-bin MCE or a D-bin P7 was used.

I have a modified KL4 by darkzero driving an M-bin MCE 2S2P with the standard KL4 driver and to my eyes
its cranking out a vast amount of light for quite some time.

Driven to an initially conservative drive-level will mean that its far less likely to overheat so quickly and therefore to drop down so quickly.

Obviously the heat-sinking needs to be good too.

I would be very interested to see Mr. Gman test something like that but I'm afraid that I'm not prepared to send my modified KL4
over the pond in the name of science.

easilyled said:

bigchelis, one would expect small direct-drive lights to drop quickly due to their lack of regulation causing initial overheating in an inadequate
area to dissipate the heat.

However if a smaller light had a regulated driver and was driven to a conservative 1.8A, for example,
I think it would achieve in the neighbourhood of 400 lumens for quite a long time,
especially if a cool-white M-bin MCE or a D-bin P7 was used.

I have a modified KL4 by darkzero driving an M-bin MCE 2S2P with the standard KL4 driver and to my eyes
its cranking out a vast amount of light for quite some time.

Driven to an initially conservative drive-level will mean that its far less likely to overheat so quickly and therefore to drop down so quickly.

Obviously the heat-sinking needs to be good too.

I would be very interested to see Mr. Gman test something like that but I'm afraid that I'm not prepared to send my modified KL4
over the pond in the name of science.

Click to expand...

Good point. IMHO if a 6P size light with a quad emitter seems to work best when regulated for 400 to 500 lumens. I think this is why Gene Malkoff at 1.7A is getting a true 470 regulated lumens out of this MC-E P60 drop-in:twothumbs

I promise MrGman will mail it back as soon as he is done. Just send it. Cmon....

P.S. Some lights have died will being tested, so at your own risk if you want to contribute. I say just do it.