Questions re: Solarforce Distribution Channel

The purpose of this thread is collect documented, first person accounts of the Solarforce Distribution Channel.

I am NOT trying to ruffle any feathers, merely to gain an historical perspective on what CPFers have encountered in the past, and perhaps draw some inkling of what we might expect in the future.

1) On 12/21/2007 selfbuilt conducted one of his typically exhaustive reviews of a Solarforce T7- Q5 Cree provided gratis by CPF user waion.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/183765&highlight=Solarforce

2) On 03/04/2008 lewong reviewed/posted pictures from a purchased Solarforce R2 drop-in.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/191328&highlight=Solarforce

3) On 05/22/2009 csshih (Craig) reviewed the SolarforceL950m using a unit provided gratis by jake25 (Jason). Jake's site at the time was solarforcelights.com
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232292&highlight=Solarforce

4) On 09/26/2009 csshih (Craig) reviewed the Solarforce Masterpiece using a unit provided gratis by jake25 (Jason).
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/243264&highlight=Solarforce
Jason's old site was still accessible but Craig directed customers to Jason's new site http://www.sbflashlights.com/Solarforce-Lights-c5/ noting that only two Solarforce Masterpiece units remained available.

5) On 10/02/2009 I posted a "Test Drive", as opposed to a full review with documented data readings, and therein raised the issue of communications with the Hong Kong based distributor. Details of problems with the "signal to noise" ratio presumably a function of language differences are covered at length therein.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/243843

6) Several days ago the Hong Kong based distributor, without any advance notice whatsoever, raised the price for the Masterpiece, AC charger, and 2 2400mAh 18650 batteries from $119 to $199.

7) PRIOR TO THE PRICE INCREASE some CPFers, directly attributing their action to my Test Drive, chose to purchase the Solarforce Masterpiece from the Hong Kong distributor. Thus far, all those subsequent purchasers seem pleased with their decisions.

8) But if I were the person reading the Review/Test Drive, I would want to have some vague notion of whether I could make a deliberated decision and proceed with obtaining said item, or whether I would be opening myself up to a rude, abrupt, price increase, that places the item in an entirely different range of competitors! This possibility applies undue pressure when a new item becomes available and does a disservice, needlessly, to both distributor and customer.

9) * I've contacted ITC, the Hong Kong distributor, informing them that this sort of business behaviour is seen, at least in the West, as price gouging. 10/17/2009 03:50 EDT (GMT -6) ITC Response Received (see bottom of this, #1, post.)

10) The "standard" I've observed here at CPF, whether from a firmly established vendor such as 4Sevens with their limited Quark Titaniums, or a peripheral entry player such as the Howitzer and its manufacturer, is to lay out clear time lines and price structures related thereto.

I don't know if any new data/information will come of this post, or whether acquiring a Solarforce item will continue to be a game of Russian Roulette. Based on Jake25's (Jason's) comments, a Solarforce distributor, I'm keeping my expectations modest.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/242477&highlight=Solarforce%27s+retail+dept+leap+frog&page=2

09-21-2009, 02:16 PM
jake25

Flashaholic*

I agree 100% Solarforce still has some marketing kinks to work out but I don't think that takes away from the quality of the product, imo that is.

I think I've yelled/argued with them more times than I have fingers to do it right, Sample, Preorder etc etc. I guess they march to their own beat.

Also the main "fleabay" seller of Solarforce is actually Solarforce's retail dept so sometimes they leap frog each other.

Click to expand...

I flat out LOVE My Solarforce Masterpiece ! And, as noted elsewhere, I sincerely appreciate the CPF community introducing me to illumination tools as Toys, not merely expensive support devices for my main addiction lovecpf.

But I also wish to make clear that there is a certain degree to which the buyer should beware. No doubt this is nothing new to participants in a "fringe" hobby {Manufacturers on the fringe I mean. As far as CPFers mental health, well we all know the real story there :wave:} but integrity is more than just a catch phrase to me, and I want to clearly delineate between my comments on a product, and the consistency of that product's offshore distributors.

So let's hear what collective illumination can be cast on this topic. It seems to me that the ability of Candle Power Forum participants to dig up info gives the folks at the Jet Propulsion Lab a run for their money :laughing:. Somebody should have told the boys at CalTech to do their homework. I mean come on, sending Spirit and Opportunity all that way to explore the surface of Mars, then finding out Gusev Crater was created by Flashaholics with a penchant for modding their gear :nana:? That's classic!

I remember when I was a little TechnoBill and we watched Neil Armstrong, with a slight transmission delay, set the first human foot on the moon. Even as a munchkin, the silence in our classroom seemed to me almost reverential. That was, and still is, a GREAT BIG DARN DEAL. Then along came these HallPassClowns {note secret code} schlepping the debauch that the moon landing was faked. What bone heads :tinfoil:! But CPFers burning craters on Mars has never come to the attention of the tinfoil hat loons, Epic Idiots !

So look you guys, as regards Solarforce's Distribution Channels I have utterly no clue whether "The Truth Is Out There", except of course in MrGMan's Sphere Of Truth, but if there are some general experiential impressions "Out There" it might be of help future SolarSchwartzians .

"Jake25, I'm yo mama!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10/17/2009 03:50 EDT (GMT -6) ITC Response Received
Temporally proximal to Zero: Dark: Hundred: as the issues, oddities, and general conundrums surrounding Solarforce, it's marketing and distribution "strategy" (and I use the term "strategy" very loosely), and the sudden $119 to $199 price spike on the part of International Trading Company, were swarming around my frontal lobe like gnats that annoy, but can't be smacked into Aedes Vexans pulp like a mosquito, nor driven away with the wave of a hand, I received a reply from ITC regarding item #9 above, the precipitous price increase. The message that unannounced, unanticipated price escalations on the order of 67% not only anger customers, but likely precludes their making future purchases, even if future prices are temporarily a good value, has gotten through. ITC asserts that when subsequent Solarforce items come down the distribution pipeline, ITC's pricing timeline and/or structure will be made explicit on its E-Bay site.

From the customers' perspective, this should make the "candy grab" (see post # 10 below) somewhat less frenetic, allowing customers looking to acquire a Solarforce more time and presence of mind to consider whether a particular item suits their needs ("wants" for Flashaholics ) and is at an agreeable price point.

I wish I could do more for Jake25 (Jason) as he is a CPF brother, if I may be so presumptuous as to consider myself one of the brethren "OF The Sickness", but for now removing one bit of impedimentia from the path of other customers shall have to suffice.

In the interest of full disclosure I have posted the exact text of my communiqués with ITC in post #11 of this thread.

Solarforce does surf CPF often and I'll defiantly point them at this thread. I can tell you that we have very long and thought out discussions on how to improve and they are trying hard to take steps in the right direction. I think things like the 3 mode P60 dropin with no strobe or SOS is defiantly an indication of this.

On the other hand ITC is still a dealer, for the most part independent of Solaforce, and they can charge whatever they like, no matter how much gouging is done.

As always I don't think any of this takes away from the quality of the product at hand. Although some what expensive at a certain point.

How about instead of only listing the Masterpiece on Fleabay they send a few your way a US dealer at the more reasonable $119.00 or so?

I see most of their lights are very reasonably priced and the quality is good for the asking price. Then this hits and I wonder are they trying to break into the high end Surefire market by inflating prices into the stratosphere?

I just hate buying on Ebay and from overseas to boot. The thought of getting a light with problems and having to wait weeks upon weeks for a resolution if any is keeping me away from thiese lights . Not saying they are problematic I am just a realist and a bit of a pessimist.

The Masterpiece is coming back in stock in 2 or so weeks. That might lower the price on ebay.

jake25 said:

Solarforce does surf CPF often and I'll defiantly point them at this thread. I can tell you that we have very long and thought out discussions on how to improve and they are trying hard to take steps in the right direction.

On the other hand ITC is still a dealer, for the most part independent of Solaforce,

As always I don't think any of this takes away from the quality of the product at hand. Although some what expensive at a certain point.

Click to expand...

Jason,

1) It is explicit in your thread, but could you elaborate on "for the most part independent" ? Is there any business relationship between the Manufacturer Solarforce and the Distributor ITC?

2) I agree entirely that issues with ITC do not take away from the quality of the Solarforce product.

3) In my communications with ITC, the language barrier is a challenge of varying degrees. Are your discussions with Solarforce a clear give and take, or do you get the idea the content is being run through some language translation software with the core of the content falling through the cracks, as in "falling through the cracks, into a wormhole, into a state of being or nonentity never to be heard from again."?

4) Has Solarforce indicated to you why your inventory of the initial 100 Masterpieces, I know only of one provided to Craig and two listed as remaining, was virtually nonexistent but ITC has apparently sold 40 (as of this morning). It would seem in Solarforce's best interest to keep an active distributor, such as yourself, with a regular posting presence on CPF ahead of the curve, if not at the very leading edge.

5) If Solarforce does indeed surf CPF, it would be in their best interest to establish an account, or if such has already been established, make their presence known.

Cultural differences can make for curious initial marketing forays, anyone here remember the original Lexus advertisements that consisted of pictures of rocks, water, and nature scenes but no cars nor indication of what was being advertised? But if Solarforce and ITC are in fact distinct business entities, I have a hard time attributing to "cultural differences" this baffling behaviour on the part of Solarforce.

What makes this exasperating is that it is detrimental to Solarforce's own interests, as well as the customers'. One would presume they want to accommodate their customers, develop a reputation for at least proceeding in a somewhat linear fashion. But as an outside looking in, it appears that Solarforce has a solid engineering group doing Research and Development, but the people in their business front end and wholesale department are schizoid and non compliant as regards taking their medication!

SOLARFORCE!
ACHTUNG! ATTENTION! LISTEN UP!

We like your lights. Some of us LOVE your lights. But figure out a business model, let your prospective customers know what it is, then STICK TO IT! Or you can continue to confuse the heck out of us and let some OTHER enterprising group of business people come along and eat your lunch.

If YOU don't take care of your customers, your COMPETITION will!

And you may just be surprised who that competition turns out to be.

We are trying to do you a favor here guys. Fair warning.

P.S. Jason, You have my condolences.

Take one chill pill and a cup of herbal tea (or shot of Wild Turkey Rare Breed) every 15 minutes until Enlightenment or Utter Apathy descends.

"The SolarSchwartz is strong with this one."

I was very disappointed when I went to order a Masterpiece from ITC only to find the price had increased by more than 60% since the previous day. Unsurprisingly they didn't get my business.

I mailed them through the auction asking for an explanation but they haven't shown the courtesy of replying.

I've ordered an ITP A6 instead. Another fledgling manufacturer but one who has taken the decision to price competitively until they have established their products and their quality in the marketplace.

I would still love to purchase a Masterpiece but certainly not at $199. That prices it above the equivalent and more established products from Fenix, Olight, Jetbeam, Tiablo. If they were to return the price to sub $130 then I would order one tomorrow.

TechnoBill, everything you just said, I 110% agree.

Basically one day they suddenly notify me they have a new MCE light that they're releasing THAT day. I heard no word of it until then. I didn't have a time to introduce it in CPFMP or do a preorder of any kind.

In one of Jason's other threads, I had made the comment that I felt that Solarforce seemed to be taking care of their dealer that was "close to home" before taking care of him and his customers.

There was some product Jason was waiting well over a month for (Gunmetal L2s I think), yet ITC had a lot of them so it obviously wasn't a supply issue.

Jason's been working really hard to promote Solarforce as a quality brand, yet Solarforce has apparently messed up multiple times and possibly has cost Jason some customers, even though the issue was totally out of his control.

It really seems like a strange way to maintain and expand a business relationship.

Black Rose I can't lay the blame completely on them since I should have made sure I had a surplus. But it did take a month for Solarforce to restock GMs themselves from their factory.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10/17/2009 03:50 EDT (GMT -6) ITC Response Received
Temporally proximal to Zero: Dark: Hundred: as the issues, oddities, and general conundrums surrounding Solarforce, it's marketing and distribution "strategy" (and I use the term "strategy" very loosely), and the sudden $119 to $199 price spike on the part of International Trading Company, were swarming around my frontal lobe like gnats that annoy, but can't be smacked into Aedes Vexans pulp like a mosquito, nor driven away with the wave of a hand, I received a reply from ITC regarding item #9 above, the precipitous price increase. The message that unannounced, unanticipated price escalations on the order of 67% not only anger customers, but likely precludes their making future purchases, even if future prices are temporarily a good value, has gotten through. ITC asserts that when subsequent Solarforce items come down the distribution pipeline, ITC's pricing timeline and/or structure will be made explicit on its E-Bay site.

From the customers' perspective, this should make the "candy grab" (see post # 10 below) somewhat less frenetic, allowing customers looking to acquire a Solarforce more time and presence of mind to consider whether a particular item suits their needs ("wants" for Flashaholics ) and is at an agreeable price point.

I wish I could do more for Jake25 (Jason) as he is a CPF brother, if I may be so presumptuous as to consider myself one of the brethren "OF The Sickness", but for now removing one bit of impedimentia from the path of other customers shall have to suffice.

In the interest of full disclosure I will post the exact text of my communiqués with ITC below. As noted elsewhere, the language barrier has presented no small challenge. I do not know, with certainty, whether ITC is using language translation software, or if the person with whom I'm communicating is using their own knowledge of English, and in this case North American English. ASIDE: {Koine Greek kicked my butt up one side and down the other in four semesters in undergrad and two more years worth in graduate school. What's more, Greek is akin to a breathtakingly symmetrical catherdral. North American English is more like vomit in a blender. I have sympathy for anyone learning English, and downright pity if their native language is not from one of the Romance Languages that share a common history} With each correspondence I am able to gather more data, and thereby attempt to discern patterns that not only indicate which is the case, but how to better tailor my e-mails so that the human on the other end comprehends the core content I am attempting to convey.

My developing impression is that the gentleman in Hong Kong is using his own knowledge of English. I must also admit a personal bias that I am predisposed to helping people whose guidelines in life and business are honesty and integrity. There simply are not enough of those people in the world and whether a German craftsman who immigrated to the United States in the first years of the twentieth century (My Grandfather) or a man in Hong Kong trying to do business without the benefit of face to face interaction, and across diverse cultures, I am personally driven to help them out. Conversely, weasels who deliberately do me or others wrong should consider themselves endangered individuals. Alas, Homo Sapiens Weaselicus Duplicitous, as a species, shows no signs of being in danger of extinction.
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E-Mail Sent Friday 10/16/2009 10:45 from TechnoBill to ITC:

Greetings ITC,

I WOULD LIKE TO HELP YOU IMPROVE YOUR MARKETING EFFECTIVENESS.

My suggestions are simple. My suggestions will help both you and your customers.
But I need you to say if you understand what I am saying.

The first suggestion is: IF YOU ARE GOING TO OFFER A LOW PRICE, BUT PLAN TO INCREASE THE PRICE LATER, YOU NEED TO POST THAT CLEARLY.

There is nothing wrong with a low introductory price, then a higher price, but customers need to know, in advance, when or under what conditions the price increase will take effect.

I think the surprise increase gives a bad impression of your company. I know you want to make a good impression, so customers will trust you, and make more purchases.

For example, the Quark Titanium lights were limited edition, but the time lines and price structures were made very clear, leaving customers plenty of time to make their decision.

It was clear that only 100 Masterpieces would be built. But it WAS NOT CLEAR the price would increase. Understand?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

E-Mail Recieved Saturday 10/17/2009 03:50 by TechnoBill from ITC

Dear friend,

Thanks for your email.

Thanks for your explaination for the stratgy for pricing.

You are right, i understand, rasiing price for the last few pc flahslight is acceptable, but need to make it clear to customer, so that they will know how many times they can consider to take it a discount price

I will make this clear and won't let ppl feeling bad in purchasing the items

Thank you my frined, i will do better to commicate to buyer in this point in the coming future

Thanks for your email and my friend, i will do it when i got new items again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So that's the status of the situation with ITC for the time being. An expected comment is that a 67% increase is heavy handed, clumsy, etc. as compared with more subtle approaches to overall profit structures, but that is a bit more nuanced a concept and we're just taking baby steps here. Trust me, the earlier e-mails back and forth make the one above look like one of the Bard's Sonnets. On so simple a topic as my battery charger, a unit clearly marked "INPUT: 4.2v (DC)" bearing the notification "For use with vehicles only." https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/243843 I was left wondering whether ITC even knew what a written language was, not to mention whether the ability to look at a picture was even part of their sensory portfolio!

But anomalies bug me, another of my many neuroses, and whether it's an 802.11a Cisco radio seeming to defy physics, a big honkin router acting like it's possessed, or a distributor in Hong Kong going to greath lengths asserting the importance of customer service to their business, then apparently intentionally shooting themselves in the foot, I just can not ignore what appear to be genuine anomalies. You real engineers, as opposed to a mere network engineer, know what I'm talking about. This sickness keeps you bonded to your keyboard trying "just one more variation" until your bladder is pico seconds from detonating :shakehead.

This thread was a fun read!

No matter the quality of the product, consistency of supply is crucial; it doesn't matter how good it is if you can't get it lol

In my MBA classes we would always talk about pricing as such; if it is flying off the shelves it is underpriced, if it is sitting on the shelves it is overpriced. It is a simple concept but ITC seems to have gone off the deep end with regards to the 60% price spike on the masterpiece.

My initial impression is that ITC has overestimated the brand penetration of Solarforce into the US market. They are still a fledgling company in the eyes of the customers and while they have had a few hits they are far from fully established. A few bad moves on pricing and some supply chain issues can derail their entry into the US market quickly by leaving a bad taste in their customer's mouth.

The US has one of the only customer-centric markets in the sense that we have a concept in this country that "the customer is always right". This attitude is not shared the world over and it can be one of the toughest cultural hurtles for a foreign entrant into the US market to overcome. The easiest way to address the issue is to appoint a US-based person/ompany to handle your affairs in the US and LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK THEY ARE PROVIDING ON HOW TO BETTER SERVE THE MARKET; AFTER ALL THEIR INTENTION IS TO STRENGTHEN YOUR PRESENCE IN THE MARKET

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink :huh:

I think this thread is indeed a great read. For Solarforce too. Just the other day we were having a discussion on doing a preorder of the upcoming HA Type III L2. I kept pushing to get a picture of the product so I could do a preorder and well, you can see I haven't made a preorder thread yet..

Jason, what's the scoop on the 2xAA L2?

ITC is already selling them.

I have them in

I'm putting them up soon, just been very busy.

Free market ecconomy - Capitalism !

Supply and demand dictate price ....

Demand goes up , supply goes down = Price increase !

Did we notice recent fuel price ?

I really dont understand the point of this thread , some one was smart enough to buy a good product , and there making a nice mark up .
Dont like the price - dont buy the product .

TechnoBill said:

3) On 05/22/2009 csshih (Craig) reviewed the SolarforceL950m using a unit provided gratis by jake25 (Jason). Jake's site at the time was solarforcelights.com
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232292&highlight=Solarforce

Click to expand...

heyyy... I paid cold, hard, cash for that L950m!! :nana:

and I don't regret it at all!!