Did Surefire Lie to me? I am angry. (P101)

I ordered the P101 for my Glock 17, and received it today. Based on Surefire website pictures, and their CALENDAR pics, it appears that the P101 just "slides right on" the G17 rails.

I was shocked and saddened to see an "adaptor" bracket that first mounts to the trigger guard first. Then the P101 slides onto "the brackets" of the adaptor. Had I known the adaptor was required, I would have never got it.

I called surefire 2 times (form work without my G17), and both guys said the adaptor is required for it to work, and not using the adaptor causes the G17 to malfunction. He led me to believe it would not fit on the gun without the bracket.

Getting it home, the P101 DOES IN FACT, slide right on the rails. (It appears) I really don't have to have the bracket. So WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH, would a rail-mounted surefire come with a bracket that isn't needed? I assumed it was for 1st GEN Glocks with no rail, but both guys said "NO" to that.

I don't know who to belive, myself or 2 surefire experts.

Re: Surefire Lied to me, I am angry. HELP (P101)

Well, it seems everything worked out okay...

Re: Surefire Lied to me, I am angry. HELP (P101)

Being that it's a defensive weapon, I don't want to disregard 2 experts telling me my firearm may not function if I don't use the adaptor.

Furthermore, the Owners Manual shows the adaptor on a 3rd generation G17 that has rails. So the picture supports the Surefire tech support. I just wish there was a consensus.

[ QUOTE ]
Viper said:

So WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH, would a rail-mounted surefire come with a bracket that isn't needed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there are pistols out there without pre-existing frame rails. The adapter is pretty evident pictured with the M101:



...and it's mentions "Includes adapter rail for mounting and easy on-off attachment" right on SF's M101 & P101 pages.

Go with whatever works for you.

They may be talking about the functioning of the weapon itself with the light installed. Machines (including weapons) can get funky when you change things. I wouldn't trust my life with it until I at least fired a hundred rounds or so without a malfunction with the light installed. I would certainly not want to put an adapter on my 19 when it has rails built in. Just make sure the weapon likes its new friend.

I remember a topic on the old SureFire discussion Board about this. Basically it was about users experiencing malfunctions with the G17/atached P101. Tests by SureFire Customer Service (Tech. Department or whoever) showed that these malfunctions can appear because of high tolerances in the Glock Production. SureFire asked Glock to refine the production process of their weapons what was rejected by Glock...
Above is written to the best of my knowledge.
One could of course also argue that the P101 is just too heavy for it's intended use. But it seems to work on many other Pistols. For a service weapon a configuration without the additional rail adaptor is stricly no option.
Holger

I find it amazing, if true, that Surefire would ask Glock to "refine" their production process. What makes Glocks so reliable is their relatively loose tolerance and for someone to ask them to compromise the reliability of a personal defense weapon so they can accommodate an accessory, and yes I agree it is an important accessory, would be ludicrous. Just my .01 cents.

CM

SureFire needs the handgun rails to be mil spec M1913 aka "Picatinny" - the rails must not need to flex, bend or twist in order for the firearm to function correctly.
Therefore, until a standard is adopted across the industry, SureFire specifically designs their interface so that attaching to a Picatinny rail is not possible without modification so that they can't be attached to handguns that have rails that can't support them.

Glocks and some other brand were found to need to flex and the solid construction [and weight] of SureFire's Nitrolon and Millennium WeaponLights were found to cause, I believe, the slide to jam - the spring was not strong enough to cycle the next round into the chamber or something...

The solution that I've read some people use is stronger springs. I guess you'll need to research on GlockTalk or speak to a few gunsmiths to get the details.

Many handguns are now being made with "Picatinny" rails although SureFire still provide rail adapters because they are not load-bearing as a load-bearing rail needs to be.

There are exceptions to this. The Beretta Vertec does not need to use a rail adapter and SureFire offer a model for this, and Dawson Precision modify a 1911 and SureFire with his own interface.

The method of locking the WeaponLight to the rails differs slightly (enough) that SureFire's method is different from say, the Springfield TRP Operator. You can modify your SureFire with a small file so that it can attach straight onto the rails.

Viper,
I do not know where you found your information regarding the P101 you purchased but the situation I've outlined as far as I'm aware of it, has been the case for at least the last year. I see no evidence that you were lied to by SureFire.
I have the 2003 Calendar - it does not show a Glock 17 with P101 attached.
I searched for the P101 on SureFire's site:
http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/259/prrfnbr/741
It does not show a photo of the P101 attached to a Glock 17.
It mentions that it comes with a rail adapter.

If you are not happy with your P101 [and the way it needs to attach to the Glock 17] then you can return it.
Perhaps in the future SureFire will release a handgun WeaponLight that does not need a rail adapter?

Respectfully,

Al

Take his option, Viper (return the item).

The InSight/StreamLight M-3 fits Glocks like a glove. Mine went on and off my G-19, every day, five days a week, for over three years. The only reason it is still not doing so is that I have switched carry guns, and the G-19/M-3 is now my dedicated "house gun" for the bedroom; strictly because of the M-3.

That's my personal M-3. The issue one I had with my SWAT-issue G-35 was used much harder; with nary a problem. We had a few initially break the spring securing the attachment ears, due to the brisker recoil. Those were replaced with a heavier leaf spring, and there have been ZERO problems since.

IMO, SureFire has pulled a "Smith & Wesson" with this light, and made it overly complex and too heavy. That opinion is formed after handling many different brands/types of fixed weapon lights. The M-3 is the cat's meow; no exposed wires, no pressure switches, quickly reversible for a wrong-handed shooter; etc., etc. The only gripe I have is the adjustable beam/bezel, a'la Mag-Lite. Barf...

No problem, though. Just find the optimum setting, and place a piece of electrical tape across the joint. Slice through it, and you can always be sure that the beam is where it is supposed to be with a quick touch.

So, they didn't lie to you. It would appear, however, that the separate bracket is a band-aid...

what Size15s said... i thought i had read something like that.

Al got it right. Without your adaptor your slide will fail to function properly and you will be "tap racking" on every round. Return the SF and get the Insight M3. I love surefire, but insight got the M3 right. Give it a try, you'll like it.

Oh yea, check out glocktalk.com for more info on the SF light issue. A lot of people who know a hell of a lot more than I do.

-Wick

I personally wouldn't get a incandescent bulb handgun WeaponLight.

If you do get an Insight M-3, please be careful not to drop it (as I've seen first hand that two units shattered into bits on contact with concrete compared to the Nitrolon that wasn't damaaged.)

Al

Surefire's handgun lights work for other handguns ok, but not well on Glocks. Get the Inishght M3, it has proven sturdier than fragile SF's. The SF unit is too bulky and heavy. For general use the M3 will do fine.

If you're hard on your gear, Insight will be releasing an "X" model for the M3/6. It will be mil-spec, waterproof, sturdier case, etc.... Should be out around the end of this month.

Fragile SureFire? Almost every user who has tried out both options has said the opposite.
Advantages of the M-3 over the P101 - Attaches to some Glocks without an adapter and is cheaper.
These are important features to some people and I respect this. However, the M-3 from the reviews and reports I've read is not suitable for operation applications with Special Forces. Many of these were from TacticalForums members - not SureFire lovers.

Al

[ QUOTE ]
occ said:
For general use the M3 will do fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Al, I'm gonna be honest with you. If I was a beta tester, received free lights from Surefire and privy to insider information I'd preach the gospel according to Surefire too.

occ (tkl), you've been banned for baiting... AGAIN! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif

I've always spoken like I've seen it. I will not cover up for SureFire, nor will shine their poop and I am close enough to smell it.
To many I am SureFire's biggest and most outspoken fan.
I give SureFire a hard time when I see the need - especially to PK. I've also spoken to Derek in Marketing about things I think they should do better. I'm critical, demanding and have problems with quite a few of SureFire's products and methods. SureFire have yet to make the model they said they would and I hound PK about this.

Look at my shelf of SureFires - biased? Yet bet! I sing from the choir so that I can talk to the Priest.

I can not always speak openly of my sources. I am one voice amoung many and my opinions should not be trust in isolations just like everybody elses. I'd like to think that they provoke interested people into digging deeper, searching wider and exploring their options.

Especially when decided to invest in WeaponLights - a serious and important use of flashlights - the reason why SureFire was created and continues.

Al

Well, this may see me banned for "baiting"; so be it, but my curiousity is aroused.

On the subject of weapon lights, one wonders how a UK subject could get ANY hands-on experience, unless he worked for the military or government.

So, Al, please expand upon your weapon-light experience; is it actual, or vicarious? And why not an incandescent?

The only firearms I've ever discharged have been shotguns for the shooting of clay discs which I don't count.

My firearms experience is zero from both ends.

I don't pretend otherwise, it is not my intent and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

My knowledge of firearms and their interaction with WeaponLights is the result of talking to, and reading accounts and feedback from actual users where possible.

My knowledge of SureFire WeaponLight products is an interest in the product - from my perspective, it's like the firearm attaches to the WeaponLight.

BTW, I am a Loyal Subject of Her Britannic Majesty.

The United States of America offers many opportunities to those wanting to experience firearms. It is possible that I will be introduced to a "Firearms Safety Course for Brits." when I next visit the States.

Al