Why so few low output LEDs?

I've been looking around for a while for a low output p60-type drop-in, a la the Malkoff M61LL. And there are very few of them out there. 0 to be precise, other than the Malkoff. Why not? Is there really such low demand for such a product?

Now, I own a Malkoff and like it, but have 2 concerns with it:
1) (The less important concern.) The Malkoff is expensive, which I know is due to the build quality. This is great. However, for an occasional use flashlight it's really overkill... though the non-critical, occasional use flashlight is exactly the one that would benefit most from low output and long battery life, IMO.
2) I like more choice in my life! If I don't like the Malkoff's brightness (like if I want more or less), color tint, etc. it seems I'm completely SOL

So what is going on? Why does this market segment receive so little attention? It can't be all that hard to make a low output drop-in? Or can it?

ETA: BTW, I'm talking about single-mode, low output modules.

I came across the same situation some time ago. I moved on from the P60 drop in format about the time SF moved on. I think the fundamental issue here is that lumens sells flashlights. Another reason I read is that SF moved on because cooling of the LED was an issue for the P60 format. I wanted say 5 lumens, 45 lumens and 100 plus lumens in a P60 format. Is possible and there are some, but not sure about the quality. You may be able to find one in the sticky thread above of P60 compatible LED dropin.
Either go to a rotary type light like HDS or SF Titan or similar or something like Zebralight which has many levels. As far as P60 format is concerned pretty much has been abandoned for low levels. You could find a custom built one but it may not be cheap.

Lumens sell!

The market is driven by people looking for the highest output rather than longest runtime.

It is the same thing that is happening with camera (pixel war) and car industry.

You could have Nailbender or vinhnguyen54 make you a single mode low output drop-in with whatever level you want and also the emitter, tint, cri, etc. They both have sales threads on the BST subforum here. They will hook you up with the P60 drop in you desire. Good luck to you!

I also just saw this thread. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...PG2-Modules-(safe-for-Plastic-Body-Surefires)

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why not just go with a programmable multi-mode tactical light, like a Quark Tactical, and program the modes to be the low output that you want (so it then operates as a single-mode light). A Quark 2xAA XPG format will run for a month on moonlight, or for many days on a few lumens. How much more efficient do you need?

I'm not sure I understand the need for a dedicated low-output single-mode light that would cost about the same as a programmable one.

Etsu said:

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why not just go with a programmable multi-mode tactical light, like a Quark Tactical, and program the modes to be the low output that you want (so it then operates as a single-mode light). A Quark 2xAA XPG format will run for a month on moonlight, or for many days on a few lumens. How much more efficient do you need?

I'm not sure I understand the need for a dedicated low-output single-mode light that would cost about the same as a programmable one.

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This is why we are flashaholics! Ain't no fun in having a "do it all" light. :thumbsup:

ganymede said:

This is why we are flashaholics! Ain't no fun in having a "do it all" light. :thumbsup:

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Well, after programming a "do it all" light to just "do one thing", you could just pretend that it's a single-purpose light. Forget how to reprogram it or something.

I hate programmables. It leaves me with this nagging feeling that there is more to go wrong with the light, and more likely to go wrong with a light that has "user programmable" level of complexity.

Malkoffs are expensive and I agree, I wish he'd do a run of even lower modes. But that said, you can find some shops ordering custom runs - currently, Illumination Supply has a custom order of HCRI-2s ranging from M61 to M61LLL.

I think next year, they are supposed to get a new order of M61Ns in, including the M61NLLL, but I don't know if that's been confirmed or not.

Your best bet, to date, is to contact one of the custom builders and see what they can put together for you. And pretty reasonably, from all accounts.

Go to the check out line at the average parts store, etc, and there will be a large selection of single mode low out put LED lights.

Buy them for $1 each or whatever, or get them for free with a purchase at Harbor Fright, etc...and as you can get so many for so little, you can replace any that fail to work w/o much angst.

Also, Fauxtons, etc, are low output single mode lights with similar price points.

And so forth, no shortage at all.

hokum said:

So what is going on? Why does this market segment receive so little attention?

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It's the same reason high CRI emitters with a lower maximum output tend to be ignored by manufacturers: bigger numbers on the box are what sell flashlights.

TMedina said:

I hate programmables. It leaves me with this nagging feeling that there is more to go wrong with the light, and more likely to go wrong with a light that has "user programmable" level of complexity.

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In theory, yes. In practice, I don't think it makes any difference. A complex circuit built with quality components is no less reliable than a simpler circuit.

the.Mtn.Man said:

It's the same reason high CRI emitters with a lower maximum output tend to be ignored by manufacturers: bigger numbers on the box are what sell flashlights.

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There's also WHY it sells flashlights. People buy flashlights to see things with when its dark...and, generally, if you have more lumens, you can see more stuff...so they work better as a flashlight.


For perspective, if you look at the lux levels that are built into codes/recommendations and guidelines for how much illumination an office, school or factory, etc, must provide at a MINIMUM for various tasks, you will see that to avoid eye strain, etc, you really WANT a lot of light, optimally, to see what you are doing, especially for detail work, reading, etc.


Very few flashlights can actually provide these minimum lux levels over large areas...as they do not have enough lumens to work with. MORE lumens are actually in demand, and selling lights with FEWER lumens is like advertising how slow the new car is and how little it can tow, and how little cargo it can fit, etc, instead of JUST the great mpg, etc.

I went and looked at the custom forums, looks like there are several threads by nailbender. He is selling 1 level only from what I see or multi level. Likely may be able to make you a custom P60 drop in low level.

TMedina said:

I hate programmables. It leaves me with this nagging feeling that there is more to go wrong with the light, and more likely to go wrong with a light that has "user programmable" level of complexity.

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My 5 year old Jetbeam lights are working as good as ever despite being used regularly. I have them programmed with mode 1 (the first mode when you turn the light on) being minimum output, mode 2 being a useful medium output and mode 3 being maximum output. I find this setup to be so useful that I use these lights more than most of my others and despite often using them I've had no problems or failures.

the.Mtn.Man said:

In theory, yes. In practice, I don't think it makes any difference. A complex circuit built with quality components is no less reliable than a simpler circuit.

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Once you're into anything requiring regulated current or voltage, then you've already got a computer controlling your light. Adding programming or multiple modes isn't hurting the reliability much.

If you want reliable, you'd need something that is directly driven from the battery, with no electronics in-between. But to get that, you're looking at something really cheap, which will probably break just because it's poorly made.

Re: KiwiMark, Mtn.Man,

And a lot of people share your opinions. And they may very well be right.

I'm not saying my bias is reasonable, or rational. But every time I look at a programmable light, or something with a UI more complicated two or three modes, I start getting twitchy. The higher the "fiddle level" of the light, the less I like, or trust it. My dislike is real enough that I won't touch the things, nor spend my money on them.

TEEJ said:

There's also WHY it sells flashlights. People buy flashlights to see things with when its dark...and, generally, if you have more lumens, you can see more stuff...so they work better as a flashlight.

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There's more to being able to see in the dark than simply how many lumens are coming out of the front. For instance the superior color rendering of a high CRI source can improve object recognition and depth perception even when compared to a higher output cool white source. A floody beam will allow you to see more of your environment than an intense spot which is brighter but can kill your peripheral visio. Another thing to take into consideration is that the actual difference between, say, a 125 lumen flashlight and a 200 lumen flashlight is almost imperceptible even in a side-by-side comparison since you need a 4x increase in output for a perceived doubling in brightness.

But in the end it's easier for manufacturers to just slap the brightest available LED into their flashlight and put a big number on the box, and the majority of consumers happily buy them because they don't know any better ("The bigger number means it's better, right?"), so we "connoisseurs" end up with more limited options.

TMedina said:

Re: KiwiMark, Mtn.Man,

And a lot of people share your opinions. And they may very well be right.

I'm not saying my bias is reasonable, or rational. But every time I look at a programmable light, or something with a UI more complicated two or three modes, I start getting twitchy. The higher the "fiddle level" of the light, the less I like, or trust it. My dislike is real enough that I won't touch the things, nor spend my money on them.

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I look at it this way: even the most complex flashlight is far, far simpler than a desktop computer, and most desktop computers run for years, even decades, without problems.

True. Of course, I'm not humping my computer in a backpack, or a pocket, or lashed to my built in the rain, sleet, snow, and possible much. Nor dropping it when I'm fumbling with a pack, or keys, or the trash, or whatever else.