LED Headlight Question(s)

Backstory- I purchased my 2000 Jeep Wrangler in the past couple months. I couldn't stand how dim the stock headlights were, and didn't want to drop serious coin right away on JW Speaker lights, or a Truck-lite setup, these are $400-700+ headlight setups. I went with the cheap truck-lite knockoffs and have had no complaints with night time driving on my end when weather is dry and clear, or blinding oncoming traffic as well. I had my girl drive the Wrangler, and I drove our Grand Cherokee, and small Honda to see how the glare was, and surprisingly had no issue's there.

Come to last night, and first time with them in the rain. It was basically like having no headlights at all on the road. They were great for signs, and seeing the rears of cars still though. Just basically zero actual pavement visibility.

Is this common on LED, or HID styled lights due to the light color, and just something that has to be lived with and get nice fog lights? I should say the vehicle has no fog lights yet, PO took them off and can not find them for me when called. Waiting on a BF sale hopefully to snag some. I ordered a better than stock halogen setup for the meantime, but want to keep the LED for the output and color due to driving back roads each night for work. They really are awesome on clear, and dry nights.

I have spent less than 150 total on both sets of lights currently, and can reuse my knockoff lights on an offroad toy if I have to get rid of them. The JW speaker lights are what I am leaning to next, but if the light will drown out in inclement weather as a byproduct of the light color then I am not shelling out over 700 for them.

Thanks

-zach- said:

Backstory- I purchased my 2000 Jeep Wrangler in the past couple months. I couldn't stand how dim the stock headlights were, and didn't want to drop serious coin right away on JW Speaker lights, or a Truck-lite setup, these are $400-700+ headlight setups. I went with the cheap truck-lite knockoffs and have had no complaints with night time driving on my end when weather is dry and clear, or blinding oncoming traffic as well. I had my girl drive the Wrangler, and I drove our Grand Cherokee, and small Honda to see how the glare was, and surprisingly had no issue's there.

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The thing about knockoffs is that they only have to resemble the real product but don't ever perform like the real product. All their effort went into copying the outward appearance, not the actual engineering. Sure, they may be comfortable to drive behind in dry weather, and you might THINK there aren't glare issues, but these are subjective impressions, not objective measure.

Come to last night, and first time with them in the rain. It was basically like having no headlights at all on the road. They were great for signs, and seeing the rears of cars still though. Just basically zero actual pavement visibility.

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And now the lack of engineering in the knockoff lamps reveals itself.

Is this common on LED, or HID styled lights due to the light color, and just something that has to be lived with

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It's common with headlamp-shaped toys. No, you don't live with it. You get real headlamps with real engineering.

and get nice fog lights?

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Fog lamps are only good in extreme rain or in very thick fog, at very low speeds. 25mph is really the maximum for the very best fog lamps, and that's pushing it. Fog lamps aren't going to help at normal highway speeds.

I should say the vehicle has no fog lights yet, PO took them off and can not find them for me when called. Waiting on a BF sale hopefully to snag some. I ordered a better than stock halogen setup for the meantime, but want to keep the LED for the output and color due to driving back roads each night for work. They really are awesome on clear, and dry nights.

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The LED for the "output and color" is meaningless-- their output is no good if they become useless in the rain. And who is going to see this "color" on the back roads? Who are you trying to impress? The only impression you're going to make is on a deer or a tree when you're unable to see where you're going.

I have spent less than 150 total on both sets of lights currently, and can reuse my knockoff lights on an offroad toy if I have to get rid of them. The JW speaker lights are what I am leaning to next, but if the light will drown out in inclement weather as a byproduct of the light color then I am not shelling out over 700 for them.

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The JW Speaker lamps aren't going to leave you wanting for better light in the rain. They're expensive, yes-- but you get what you pay for. That $150 you spent on toys headlamps could have gone towards *real* headlamps.

Alaric is right. As difficult as it might be to swallow, you made a couple of very poor purchasing choices, and you are getting a practical object lesson in the difference between headlight-shaped trinkets and real, legitimate headlamps.

After I saw:

-Virgil- said:

As difficult as it might be to swallow, you made a couple of very poor purchasing choices

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I looked back on your original post, and found what -Virgil- must have been referring to:

-zach- said:

I ordered a better than stock halogen setup for the meantime

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For any vehicle with the non-standard shape/form factor lamps, every aftermarket replacement headlamp is pure junk. For vehicles such as yours, (or any using the standard sealed-beam form factors whether round or rectangular) there are some legitimate aftermarket LED lamps (for example, Truck-Lite and JW Speaker 7" round LED lamps), and there are some good aftermarket lamps in the various sealed beam form factors that use halogen replaceable light sources, but there's mostly junk out there masquerading as headlamps. Which ones did you buy?

And if those are also junk, add their price to the $150 you already spent on junk, and see how much closer that got you to a real headlamp you'll really be happy with.

Alaric Darconville said:

For any vehicle with the non-standard shape/form factor lamps, every aftermarket replacement headlamp is pure junk. For vehicles such as yours, (or any using the standard sealed-beam form factors whether round or rectangular) there are some legitimate aftermarket LED lamps (for example, Truck-Lite and JW Speaker 7" round LED lamps).

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It seems we are still waiting for the market price to come down on quality Jeep LED headlights, especially in Canada where we use the DRL system. Virgil, has your grapevine given you any information on the KC Gravity headlights? They are a new design that includes the DRL function and looks unlike anything else I've seen on the market. Also any insider information on the Vision X, it's been around for 3+ years now and I don't see the price moving down yet. Thanks.

Eugene Jeep said:

They [the KC Gravity lamps] are a new design that includes the DRL function and looks unlike anything else I've seen on the market.

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KC has done PFR1​ of Peterson lamps; this particular "Gravity" lamp is more likely to be made by KC but I haven't heard from the usual suspects on this subject. While past performance is not an indication of future performance, we're looking at KC. Knowing KC's chief product is a 23-year warranty2​, and that they've made some doozies of bad products before, hopes aren't high for these lamps.

If they look "unlike anything else [you've] seen on the market", maybe that's a sign they've figured out something fantastic and new about optics, or they're counting on the outward appearance to sell lamps.

I see some copy referring to "KC Engineered Polished Reflector Optics" -- the vapor-deposited aluminum on a reflector shouldn't need any polishing.

1​Purchase for resale
2​It's cheaper to crank out mid-to-high durability products with low performance than mid-to-high performance products with low durability. Most people's test of quality is "they turn on and haven't rusted off the vehicle", therefore warranty claims are fairly low and they've "kept the customer", and more to the point kept thing singing about the durability and the "great customer service".

Eugene Jeep said:

It seems we are still waiting for the market price to come down on quality Jeep LED headlights

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Not really, it's already down. Quality LED headlamps are not going to come close to matching the price of sealed beams or H4s.

especially in Canada where we use the DRL system

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This doesn't impact on the price of quality LED headlamps. The DRL issue is not difficult to address satisfactorily and legally.

Virgil, has your grapevine given you any information on the KC Gravity headlights?

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From what I've seen they're not bad. Durability is an open question.

They are a new design that includes the DRL function

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Maybe in a legal/safe manner and maybe not -- that is another open question.

Also any insider information on the Vision X

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Nothing secret about it -- it's been discussed on here.

it's been around for 3+ years now and I don't see the price moving down yet

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We don't live in Wal-Mart where prices necessarily go down and down and down until the maker of the product goes out of business and a cheaper and nastier product replaces it on the shelves.

Pay attention to which headlamps get recommended (and which ones don't) when people ask on here about 7" round LED headlamps.

Great summary.

In the 5x7 series - the new JW Speaker Evolution offer any advantages over the TruckLite Phase 7 ?

https://www.jwspeaker.com/latest-products/new-8900-evolution/

Is the rumored "color banding/fringing" on low beam & the "lackluster" high beam been fixed?

Are these VOL or VOR lamps?

The DRLs drive the high beam at a fraction of the full power?

Lastly, any benefit to getting the ECE RHT versions of the same DOT/SAE lamps I linked to above?

Thx

Ofelas said:

In the 5x7 series - the new JW Speaker Evolution offer any advantages over the TruckLite Phase 7 ?

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Those are both objectively good headlamps with fairly equivalent performance on low and high beam, but you get smoother, better-formed beam patterns on the Speaker lamp. The Truck-Lite beams are full of streaks, spots, and other distractions.

Are these VOL or VOR lamps?

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The Truck-Lite is actually a mechanical aim lamp (the old sealed beam photometric standard). The JW Speaker can be aimed to either VOR or VOL; longer seeing distance if you aim to VOL.

The DRLs drive the high beam at a fraction of the full power?

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If your vehicle has reduced-intensity low or high beam DRLs, that is not compatible with any of the LED headlamps and you will have to disable the DRL function (maybe move it to the turn signals).

any benefit to getting the ECE RHT versions of the same DOT/SAE lamps I linked to above?

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The only difference on the Speaker lamp is the markings; optically they're the same. The Truck-Lite ECE lamp in this size has a much smoother beam pattern, nice and wide, and with less upward stray light, but it is somewhat less efficient than the SAE (DOT) version. Still completely whups a sealed beam or H4, though!

Ah, you have shone a beam through the fog, thanks

So I guess its down to the Speaker Evolution 8900 vs the TruckLite 5x7 ECE - your choices between these two?

I do like the two small separate LEDs in the TruckLite ECE version...I can wire one to accessory feed and wire the second one with running lamps.

Having said that, I do see a few square body Cherokees running around with TruckLite LEDs with the DRL module driving them via the same Canadian DRL module.

Its an old 91 Dodge truck - I have a DRL module, which I unplugged since I installed the TruckLite Phase 7 - I guess these were only H6054/sealed beam compatible ?

Some info I found - the DRL module drives the high beams at about 6v...I think the TruckLites operate from 6v upwards? There is no flicker by the way, and it runs at reduced brightness. During the first couple of minutes when the grid heaters cycle, the DRL function pulses along with the dash lights, but rund=s steadily at a reduced rate after the grid cycling stops.

The way I understand it, the High Beam filament is being driven at a decreased output usually 70% by a PWM (pulse width modulation) signal from the DRL module.

Ofelas said:

So I guess its down to the Speaker Evolution 8900 vs the TruckLite 5x7 ECE - your choices between these two?

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They're both good headlamps, and they're both pleasing to drive behind. I could be content driving at night with either of them. If it matters to you, the JW Speaker comes in chrome or black.

I do like the two small separate LEDs in the TruckLite ECE version...I can wire one to accessory feed and wire the second one with running lamps.

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You're talking about the two small LEDs on the front of the heat sink that divides the Truck-Lite reflector into upper and lower halves. They are not individually addressable; one wire feeds both of them. Together they provide the front position lamp ("parking light", "city light") function. They are not daytime running lights, or accessory lights, and there is no such thing as "running lamps".

I do see a few square body Cherokees running around with TruckLite LEDs with the DRL module driving them via the same Canadian DRL module.

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Oh, they'll light up, the problem is they do so in a dangerous and noncompliant (unlawful) fashion, at full intensity. This is really unsafe not only because of the glare with a full-intensity high beam, but it also is much more likely to make even an attentive driver fail to turn on the nighttime lights when it gets dark out. That is why full-intensity high beam DRLs are not legal under any circumstance, and full-intensity low beam DRLs are legal only if the vehicle either switches on all the nighttime lights (front position/parking, rear position/tail, side markers, license plate, dashboard) all the time, or has an ambient-light sensor to turn on the nighttime lights when it gets dark out.

Since its technically a '91, didn't have DRL requirements in Canada...

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That's not correct; Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 requires DRLs on all vehicles made or imported for first sale after 12/31/89.

And then did it again in 98.5 with the 12v to 24v switch

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There was no switch to 24v. Dodge trucks have 12v systems even after '98, even on the dual-battery models.

Correct on the starting year; I edited my post above at around the same time as you replied.

As far as 12v to 24v - I was speaking about valves, not volts ;-)

Anyway - some more info I added above which I'll type again here (below) - any input into this?

"Some info I found - the DRL module drives the high beams at about 6v...I think the TruckLites operate from 6v upwards? There is no flicker by the way, and it runs at reduced brightness. During the first couple of minutes when the grid heaters cycle, the DRL function pulses along with the dash lights, but rund=s steadily at a reduced rate after the grid cycling stops.

The way I understand it, the High Beam filament is being driven at a decreased output usually 70% by a PWM (pulse width modulation) signal from the DRL module."

Ofelas said:

Correct on the starting year; I edited my post above at around the same time as you replied.

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As far as 12v to 24v - I was speaking about valves, not volts ;-)

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Oh, OK. You can probably see why I would assume 'volts' in the context of what we discuss on this board.

the DRL module drives the high beams at about 6v

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Correct.

I think the TruckLites operate from 6v upwards?

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Spec is 9v to 32v. Running them at 6v is very hard on their driver circuit. They'll light up for awhile, but the driver's lifespan will be shortened, likely dramatically.

The way I understand it, the High Beam filament is being driven at a decreased output usually 70%

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No. The high beam is fed 50% voltage, which drops the (incandescent/halogen) output down to about 10% of its full-voltage output. That depends on the relationship between voltage and output for a filament. It doesn't hold true for LEDs (another reason why not to do this with LED headlamps).

by a PWM (pulse width modulation) signal from the DRL module

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Some of them are PWM, and some of them are resistive, and some of them put the left and right high beam filaments in series with each other, and some of them put the left high and low beam filament in series with each other and the right high and low beam filament in series with each other.

(Also, please don't crud up your posts with all that color and font formatting markup. It doesn't change the appearance of your post, just makes it a pain to respond to. You might not be putting it in on purpose; if you draft your comment in MS Word or something else and then paste it in, it can wind up full of formatting crap. If you have to draft your comments elsewhere and paste them in, please use a plain-text editor)

Ah, makes sense, LED vs incandescent low voltage & light output different.

Yes, I copied & pasted that greyed out text, no idea that I needed plain text.

On those TruckLite ECE - this is the one I need for RHT in N America ? - http://www.truck-lite.com/webapp/wc...=15554&parent_category_rn=13089&storeId=10001

Real tempting to get these, I miss the pilot bulbs on my old Cibies...I had them wired to an ignition hot circuit, on my '81...while not DRL, are pilot/city lights legal to run in the daytime?

The chrome version of the Speaker Evolutions is very nice....goes a bit better with the brightwork on an old truck, compared to the blacked out look.

I hear adding the high beams to the low beams, as TruckLite does, is not necessarily the best for long distance seeing, as it makes one focus a bit too much on the immediate foreground.

Do the 8900 Evolutions do this as well, or do they substitute Low for High when selected like sealed beams/H4 ?

Ofelas said:

On those TruckLite ECE - this is the one I need for RHT in N America ?

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The one you'd need is linked in post #9 of this thread.

Real tempting to get these, I miss the pilot bulbs on my old Cibies...I had them wired to an ignition hot circuit, on my '81

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That's not the correct way to do it. They are parking lights (front position lamps), plain and simple. Wire them up and use them that way or not at all.

I hear adding the high beams to the low beams, as TruckLite does, is not necessarily the best for long distance seeing, as it makes one focus a bit too much on the immediate foreground.

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Too much foreground light is counterproductive, but that does not necessarily mean lows-on-with-highs is counterproductive.

I don't mind spending the money for JWS.

So - the JWS US version is VOL?

As useful on low/high in rural environments as the Trucklite ECE?

I'm not averse to having the pilot bulbs (wired to the parking lamps if I'm understanding this correctly), as long as these Are comparable to the JWS evolution 8900.

Durability/build quality differences ?

Will buy as soon you recommend.

Ofelas said:

So - the JWS US version is VOL?

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See post #9 of this thread. I think it's marked "VOR".

As useful on low/high in rural environments as the Trucklite ECE?

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At least!

I'm not averse to having the pilot bulbs (wired to the parking lamps if I'm understanding this correctly), as long as these Are comparable to the JWS evolution 8900.

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As far as I know, the front position light function is not available on the JW Speaker 8900.

Durability/build quality differences ?

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They're both built well, though the JW Speaker might be somewhat more durable. I haven't looked into warranties.

Durability/build quality differences ?

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I got 2 years out of a set of JW speakers in an industrial enviroment. Road salt and moisture cause corrosion, allowing water ingress which eventually killed the electronics. One side went and the other went about a month latter. No warranty at that time.

Never used the Trucklites long enough to see how long they lasted, far too blue for my eyes. And terrible CRI, very hard to distinguish some things. But they have the models with the heated lense so if you see any adverse (snow/fog) weather I would get those over the speakers.

Overall the speakers seemed more well built.