All-volunteer armed forces versus the draft

I used to be in favor of a draft, because I thought everyone should serve their country. Then I changed my mind because I read a comment from some general saying the draft was really bad and the volunteer army much better because the soldiers are much more professional and better trained since they're in there by choice, and often for the long haul, whereas draftees tended to get themselves and others killed a lot.

On the other hand, reading articles like "Pat Tillman Former NFL Player KIA" makes me wonder. Isn't it bad policy to send those with honor and nobility off to get killed, leaving the less altruistic behind? Not to mention the fact that now many families have nothing to lose when the nation goes to war... perhaps we would be more careful about picking our battles if our kids or our neighbor's kids were on the line, rather than just those that volunteered.

As a volunteer, I'd rather have someone next to me that asked to be here than someone that was pretty much forced into it.
That's not to say that draftees haven't served with honor and distinction through our history. Look at a list of MOH winners and many, if not most, will be draftees. However IMHO it's better to have those who are willing to volunteer doing the fighting.

so you're saying if you don't volunteer to risk dying for the US that you're selfish?

not trying to be pushy here.. i just don't agree with the draft and i personally would not volunteer to serve.

Could you support some form of non-military national service,BBTL ?

It really depends.

If the nation is being attacked on home soil, a draft is necessary. In this situation, I'd hope to think that people would volunteer to protect their country.


OTOH, if the US is doing "police" duties and fighting in other nations, as long as there are enough troops a draft is not needed.

I would have volunteered if the nation was under attack....but I have no interest in being sent to fight other country's wars (i.e. Vietnam, Iraq).

I agree that those drafted may not necessarily be as capable as those who want to be there. However, in a crisis a draft may be needed.

And as far as branches, the only ones that appeal to me is the Coast Guard and Airforce. Unfortunately, I think the draft is for the army??

I'm with Unicorn--I don't want the person covering my tail to be the guy who'd rather be home playing Nintendo and getting high...

and that's my opinion.

-Jason

why does this thread remind of that scene in stripes when the sargent ask the guys why they joined the army and they get to one guy and he said to avoid the draft the sargent gets a funny look on his face and says son there is no draft no more

From what I understand, President Bush does not support reinstating the draft and plans to veto any such suggestions... so it really is a non-issue at this point.

id go if i was drafted i tryied to enlist im a tad to screwy for them lol but im sure they would let me in if ther was draft

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so you're saying if you don't volunteer to risk dying for the US that you're selfish?

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly... I wouldn't think you're selfish if you're in the Peace Corps, for example /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, I did 12 years volunteer with the US Marines, and I enjoyed it *alot*.

I'd definitely say a draft should be a last ditch item, as you end up with all the riff-raff, instead of taking 90% of their folks from the top 50% of high school graduates (actually, this doesn't apply to the US Army).

Personally, I think the draft is best suited for when you want to throw bodies at an objective. Thats not kosher in our kinder, gentiler military of today.

If we had to oppose someone on our own soil, I doubt a draft would be necessary...well, maybe it would be needed for the city boys, dunno.

In my experience threads regarding military service can become a religious war very quickly.

Let me just say this:

Remember how you felt when you saw or heard the news about the World Trade Center.

That proved one thing: All of us value the freedom we have and all are made of the same human cloth.

It is a difficult thing to be challenged by others who do not think as we do and to suffer by their hand.

Those who do not consider it the time to rise do something they think may be right but I believe they would if they had to.

This country has been put togther and kept together by those who saw the need and sacrificed wealth, time or their lives. The bounty of freedoms we have should be available by CHOICE to others.

It would be a tragedy if the opportunity for freedom was denied to anyone here and is a tragedy because it is denied elswhere.

A draft is not needed now. Period.

Should it be there will be argument. That is the nature of America.

The people that go to war for us...and we ARE at war...are volunteers.

Are we not lucky?

It is true that we have an "all-volunteer" force.

Although, at least some of those volunteers only did so out of economic necessity. There was a twin daughter (both twins of which served in Iraq) killed about a week ago (about the same age as President Bush's twin daughters). Her mother said she "volunteered" to get college paid for.

It doesn't seem right that people forced into military service by economic circumstances fight our wars while the sons and daughters of the people that make the decisions are home safe because they can afford to be. On the other hand, we had the draft during Vietnam and various people avoided service in Vietnam by staying in college forever or by "volunteering" for guard units (only 2% of the guard ever went to Vietnam in those days). Our current President is like that (Texas air national guard...later asked to be transferred to the Alabama air national guard so he could help with someone's Senate campaign).

So...no easy answer. What we have now seems unfair but I'm not sure it would be better with the draft. The rich and influential always seem to be able to get out of harm's way one way or another if they want to.

I didn't join out of economics, nor did the young men from Lake Forest/Deerfield/Highland Park, Illinois, whom I helped serve their country also. You may be surprised at how many folks, after they completed their MA/MS/BS/BA, came to me to sign up, after they'd finished what their parents wanted them to do first. After I'd had tremendous success with these young men and enlistment, I got moved over to officer selection (congressional), where we won #1 and #2 for officer selection for the entire Nation (quality and quantity). These were not young, mis-adapted men, but folks who had a fire burning deep inside, who didn't even realize they could still serve (they wrongly thought is was only for young men out of high school, or academy/ROTC folks).

At the time when I joined, I believed in what this country stood for, and was willing to give my life in defense of her, and to protect our way of life.

Why did I get out? Clinton was President, I feared Gore was going to become President, and I did not believe in what they did or stood for. Plus, Clinton was still downsizing the military, cutting the military budget, we couldn't keep things 100% ready, yet on November 10th 1995 (or thereabouts), Clinton had the Marines deployed to more countries than any other President in history (148 of them at once), yet somehow managed to keep most of this out of the press, through force or silence.

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At the time when I joined, I believed in what this country stood for, and was willing to give my life in defense of her, and to protect our way of life.

[/ QUOTE ]This is what worries me - we're sending the good guys off to get killed. Meanwhile, those who feel no sense of responsibility sit home and get rich.

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Greymage said:
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At the time when I joined, I believed in what this country stood for, and was willing to give my life in defense of her, and to protect our way of life.

[/ QUOTE ]This is what worries me - we're sending the good guys off to get killed. Meanwhile, those who feel no sense of responsibility sit home and get rich.

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Conversely, if you send the spoiled rich folks that don't want to be there, you might have an incopetent army and a lot of people that don't show up.

I guess it is time to bring up this old quote:

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A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the
candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship....

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from great courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependency back again to bondage.

-- Sir Alex Fraser Tyler
(1742-1813) Scottish jurist and historian
Source: The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic, c.1799

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-Bill

Yep. And this country is about 230 or so right now.

I think what is going to happen, is INEVITABLE!!!!

But I'm going to fight against it with my last breath!

(Whoops!) To be on topic...

I think the volunteer Armed Forces are better. I was too young for the Nam, too old for Desert Storm. But probably should have enlisted anyway! I think a definite edge goes to someone who WANTS to do something over one who HAS to do it!

For now, the volunteer forces seem to be working, but that may change in a few years. I feel that any politician who votes to approve a pre-emptive, first strike, should be, themselves, or a family member, drafted into actual battle.

Perhaps we should all be drafted into various types of public service for a reasonable time, in lieu of military service. This would allow no loopholes for the wealthy and connected.

Like BB & PBJS, I too believe we're on our way back to bondage. I live in a county so depressed that people line up, hundreds deep, for crap-wage-no-benefit-no-future jobs. Many are skilled and degreed, mature folks with good work histories and they are going backwards.

Our nation approves of the war in Iraq but less than 50% of us vote, yet we beat our collective chests and wave our flags in false patriotism. I wanna puke!

I would support a draft. I believe it helps mature young men, and it does provide some training in case of a national emergency.
I don't think that it is possible, politically, at this time.

Jerry