"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolete"

Velcro

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\"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolete\"

Nothing we don't know yet, but thought I pass it along. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Illuminating The Future

BY JIM WILSON
Photos by Lumileds

tb_led-lg.jpg


Hang on to your burned-out light bulbs. Your grandchildren could pay their way through college by selling them as antiques. After more than a century, the light bulb is about to go the way of the whale-oil lamp. The contender is the light-emitting diode (LED), perhaps best known as the little bump on the top of the TV remote control.

Remotes emit light in the infrared range, at frequencies below those we can see. The newest member of the family, white-light LEDs, emit light at frequencies across the entire visible spectrum, which means they can illuminate our surroundings with a clarity that's comparable to nature's original incandescent--the sun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can read the full article here.
 

idleprocess

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
By some estimates, white-light LEDs could capture a quarter of the existing incandescent and fluorescent lighting markets as early as 2012.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, a typical euphoric PM prediction... reminds me of a spoof I saw of of PM's "Tech Update" columns of the 30s and 40s - "Radios may be Portable by 1950"

In reality, LEDs have some hurdles to overcome - namely in terms of cost and high-power efficiency. They're more efficient than incadescent bulbs at low voltages, but can't beat them at high voltages, nevermind getting anywhere close to the efficiency of florescent tubes.

Also, I think that there needs to be some "killer app" for white LEDs (other than flashlights) to trigger the next level of private-sector R&D to get volume up and prices down.
 

jtr1962

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I agree with the general premise of the article. While LEDs have drawbacks preventing them from capturing the general lighting market at the present time, by 2012 I think all of the major problems will have been solved. Here are the main problems as I see them, and why I think they will be solved:

cost: This is the big problem right now, and even if all the other problems were solved the present cost per lumen of around $0.10 compares very unfavorably with the cost per lumen of 4-foot fluorescent tubes ($0.001), or even CFLs ($0.002 to $0.008). However, the good news is that the raw materials for LEDs are dirt cheap, and once manufacturing processes are streamlined and they are made in larger quantities they might very well be far cheaper than any current light source. Look for the cost per lumen to become competitive with other light sources within a decade at most.

efficiency: the best production white LEDs at around 35 to 40 lm/W are only about twice as efficient as light bulbs. Typical Luxeons seem to run around 25 to 30 lm/W, or only 25 to 50% better than the efficiency of a typical 100 W incandescent lamp (~17 lm/W). This compares very poorly with CFLs at 60 to 70 lm/W, or the best fluorescent tubes at ~100 lm/W. The good news is that next year we will have production LEDs of around 60 lm/W efficiency from Nichia and probably Lumileds, and red LEDs have already surpassed 100 lm/W in the lab. I see no good reason why we won't have production LEDs with efficiencies of 100 to 150 lm/W by 2012 given the current rates of progress, and I feel we'll eventually approach wall-plug efficiencies of 80 to 90%, meaning 200+ lm/W for white light, and efficiencies ranging from maybe 50 to over 500 lm/W for colored LEDs, depending upon the color.

color consistency and color rendering:current white LEDs already have acceptable color rendering and consistency for many lighting applications, although they are not quite there yet for more critical retail and home lighting needs. Certain technologies on the horizon, such as the UV + RGB phosphor LED, promise to address these problems within a decade. Indeed, I see no good reason why we won't have LEDs by 2012 which have CRIs approaching 100, and are available in any of the more commonly used color temps. Furthermore, LEDs may finally enable the ultimate light source-namely one within an equal energy distribution of all frequencies across the visible spectrum. Thus far this has not been attainable with any other lighting technology.

As for certain advantages LEDs already possess-we have robustness, ability to make colored light with unsurpassed efficiency, and very long lifetimes. These advantages will certainly improve with time, and while LEDs in their current form may not necessarily be the light of the future, I feel that some sort of quantum-based light source is what will be primarily used in the future. I don't think incandescent bulbs will even be made in ten years time outside of for niche markets (much like tube amplifiers) because alternative sources will be cheaper, last longer, be more efficient, and have superior light emitting properties. Indeed, given the vast superiority of fluorescent and metal halide in terms of operating costs and light quality for nearly all general lighting applications, I fail to see why incandescent bulbs are still made in large quantities any more even in 2004. By 2012 I suspect incandescent bulbs will have faded into the dust bins of history along with vinyl records, magnetic core computer memories, and tube stereos. I think it will take somewhat longer for fluorescent and other discharge lights to disappear given their present efficiencies and the huge installed base in many businesses, but I would say by 2025 or 2030 they will largely be gone as well given the normal 20 to 25 year cycle for upgrading lighting fixtures.
 

idleprocess

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I'd like be wrong and see LEDs begin to seriously overtake incadescents and florescent tubes within seven and a half years, but I just don't think it's going to happen.

Currently, energy in the US is just too cheap for most people to justify buying a $10 CF lamp when standard light bulbs sell for ~$1 each based on energy savings alone. Even if LEDs last 10 times longer than a CF lamp, they're likely going to cost even more than CFs. I appreciate that the CF lamps I installed 3 years ago are still working, but I doubt they've made a real dent in my utility bill.

Another issue rarely examined in these discussion: driver electronics. LEDs are durable, but generally require specialized drivers. In order to get the oft-quoted "100,000 hours" out of them, they need to be driven precisely, being more sensitive to varying drive levels than "light emitting resistors." If the lighting designer errs on the side of economy in driver electronics, look for the drivers to fail before the LEDs (or fry the LEDs).

Scaling is another issue. 1W, 3W, and 5W LEDs are nice for flashlights, but din't produce enough light for general residential/commercial lighting. The current solution for drop-in LED "bulbs" is clustering enough low-power LEDs together to get something approaching the output of a conventional light source. This is expensive and ineffective (the only market for these seems to be emergency lighting - where it HAS to work). In order for clustering to be effective (and I don't think it ever will be) is for packaging costs to drop to almost nothing. Packaging is usually the largest cost for semiconductors, and has a heck of a lot of R&D dollars thrown at reducing it.

So, LEDs will have to continue to scale up - which has proven to be quite a challenge (look no further than the 500-hour rated lifespan of the Luxeon V "Portable"). I hear rumors of 20W prototypes from Lumileds, but those are mere rumors.

I'm not so sure about the UV LED w/RGB phosphor approach. Until UV LEDs are more efficient at generating UV photons that florescent tubes, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Again, I'd loove to be wrong, but when I can buy an 8-watt, 230 lumen 9" florescent tube and everything I need to drive it for less than $8 (and a 15 watt, 750 lumen 36" tube for less than than that!) , I think that's where the money is going to continue to be for the present time.
 

Bill.H

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I can see LEDs continuing to gain acceptance in automotive usage, and in "expensive/hard to change" usage ie. traffic lights.
I see a market starting now or an opening for LEDs in the appliance and machinery fields; refrigerators, garage door openers, power tools.

I think the sales of these more humdrum units will eventually provide a monetary base to support big research into an efficient (both cost and power) replacement for conventional lighting, but 2012 might be a bit too optimistic.

Still, imagine how much GE or another company would LOVE to hold the patent on the "true never-change light bulb that uses less electricity and costs less than 3x as much as a conventional incandescent or flourescent while providing equla or better light".
 

floyd

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

When you work out the cost of the electricity used over the 10000 hour life of a compact flourescent lamp, and compare it to the cost of the electricity used by a comparable incandescent, you will find that the energy savings more than pays for the more expensive compact flourescent.
 

PeLu

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
jtr1962 said:The good news is that next year we will have production LEDs of around 60 lm/W

[/ QUOTE ]
When I got my first white LED in 1996, Siemens made similar claims for the next year. And I've read these claims now for several years, but white LED efficiency climbed only slowly (of course I'm happy it did anyway!)

[ QUOTE ]
I see no good reason why we won't have production LEDs with efficiencies of 100 to 150 lm/W by 2012 given the current rates of progress, and I feel we'll eventually approach wall-plug efficiencies of 80 to 90%, meaning 200+ lm/W for white light

[/ QUOTE ]
According to what I learned in school, the theoretical limit for white light and photopic vision is 200 lm/W (actually 199 lm/W). Unless you have a bad light colour, you will not get higher.

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, I see no good reason why we won't have LEDs by 2012 which have CRIs approaching 100

[/ QUOTE ] It should not be more problem as for fluorescent lamps (actually they are quite similar).

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think incandescent bulbs will even be made in ten years time outside of for niche markets

[/ QUOTE ]
They will. They are still unbeatable cheap. Things do not change that fast. Look how long it needed to replace red lights and efficient red LEDs are available for quite a while. And there are still red incandescent lights made.

BTW, my Osram CFL bulbs claim some 75lm/W and a lifetime of 25,000 hours.

I remeber that I read LECs will wipe away incandescent bulbs for homelighting in a few years. This was written in the 50ies .-)
 

Carbonium

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:

Currently, energy in the US is just too cheap for most people to justify buying a $10 CF lamp when standard light bulbs sell for ~$1 each based on energy savings alone. Even if LEDs last 10 times longer than a CF lamp, they're likely going to cost even more than CFs.

[/ QUOTE ]


Who uses standard bulbs anymore?

7500 hour 22 watt CF's are only 50 cents each where I live. 4 foot CF's are 97 cents.
 

thesurefire

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
jtr1962 said:
by 2012 I think all of the major problems will have been solved.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif
 

Lagged2Death

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:
Currently, energy in the US is just too cheap for most people to justify buying a $10 CF lamp when standard light bulbs sell for ~$1 each based on energy savings alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's certainly true that most people don't think about these things, and most people don't use CFLs. But even at today's energy prices, CFLs are just about a no-brainer. The word just hasn't spread around yet.

A 60W incandescent bulb sells for $0.35 to $0.50, but consumes (at my electric rate of $0.12/KWH) about $7.20 worth of electricity over its 1,000 hour lifetime. Total cost for 1000 hours of light, about $7.55.

An equivalent 15W CFL can be had at Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot etc. for about $5, and will only consume about $1.80 worth of electricity in a 1,000 hour period. Total cost for (the first) 1000 hours of light, about $6.80.

So I'm actually ahead of the game after just one incandescent's lifetime - I could throw away and replace the CFL (which will be good for another 7,000+ hours yet) at this point and I'd still be saving money. Total up the costs over an 8,000 hour lifetime, ($60.40 incandescent vs. $19.40 CFL) and you're way ahead ($41) with the CFL. Five CFL lamps might cost you $25, but over their lifetimes, they can save you over $200! I'd just about kill to have such a terrific investment in my retirement account. The effect on a single month's electric bill is small, but it's real.

And if you factor in the reduced heat load in an air-conditioned environment, it just gets better.

[And of course, this is all a digression from the original topic. Sorry. Still, energy efficiency can do nothing but good for our wallets and our lungs, and we don't have to wait years for better tech - it's here now! Get the word out!]
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

Lagged /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

In the two bathrooms at my house, the fixtures are three each standard screw base pairs.

With even 40W incandescents, a BUNCH of heat was radiated. CFLs are now in something like 2 of the pairs in each BR. They run MUCH cooler!

My desklamp has a CFL. I can hold it after HOURS on. Try that with an incandescent!

I don't know how much if any money the bulbs save in and of themselves, but they sure as shootin' help with the AC!!!
 

ledlurker

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

CFL's can be had even cheaper than you might think. Sam's Club had a package of 6 - 13 watt (equivalent 60 Watt bulb) for $12. If I see them again for this price I will get more. If only I could find air conditioners that could run at 75% lower than they do now. The AC makes my electric bill jump from $75 to $300
 

RayT

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

[ QUOTE ]
led-lurker said:If only I could find air conditioners that could run at 75% lower than they do now. The AC makes my electric bill jump from $75 to $300

[/ QUOTE ]
I faced the same problem with my house air conditioner. I replaced the unit with new unit that uses Puron and a scroll compressor. My bill dropped a full 25% and I was able to keep the house more comfortable. Supposedly scroll compressors get more effecient over time as the surfaces seal better.

Any unit that is over 10 years old should be considered for replacement and not repair when the unit breaks and major repairs are required. The increased technology, computer control, computer problem diagnosis, and improved efficiency are all compelling reasons.

My electric bill jumps from $90.00 in the winter to about $190.00 in the summer. And not all of that is air conditioning as I also have to run a 1HP pool pump. I figure the air conditioner costs me about $3.00 per day.
 

idleprocess

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

Carbonium
Sure, I could buy cheap CFLs made by Lights of America (or other low-profile "budget" brands) but I've seen far too many of those die out of the box - or after a few hours use - to trust budget CFLs.

I don't know where GE rates on the CFL food chain, but their "basic" models start at around $2 and change for the 60-watt euivalent models.
 

turbodog

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I'll parrot that statement idleprocess.

We just built a new house, so I got the buy ALL lights at the same time. We put CF lights everywhere. We were even able to find CF floodlights... needed 14 of them at $11 apiece (yikes).

I bought approx 12 packs of 4 bulbs from home depot. I don't know what brand they were but they cost about $8-9 for the pack. I had 1 full pack of bulbs to return when I was finished that did not work. A few more bulbs are starting to turn up flaky as time goes on. Also, some simply refuse to light if the temp is cold.

All in all they are better than bulbs bought a few years ago, but they still have a ways to go.

When you put them in the entire house, they DO make a noticable difference in your light bill.

old house ~1400 sq ft summer elec bill $200
new house ~2200 sq ft summer elec bill $130

But also, new house has better insulation, better air sealing, better hvac. Old house was shaded by trees... new one is on completely exposed hilltop though.
 

jtr1962

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I'll agree CFLs still have some problems but they are a no-brainer for nearly all situations where standard-base incandescents are currently used, especially in a place like NYC where electric rates are going to be over $0.35 per kW-hr soon. The only exception might be a light that's switched on and off frequently but not used for very many hours per day.

One thing that really surprises me is that linear fluorescent tubes are overlooked by many outside of in kitchens and utility areas. For a brand new house it makes sense to put unobtrusive ceiling flush-mounted linear fixtures using four-foot T-8 tubes in every room rather than using. For starters, the tubes are dirt cheap (<$3 for better grades) and have better CRI than most CFLs. Second, the efficiency beats most CFLs by about 50% (90-100 lm/W versus 60-65 lm/W). Third, the light from linear tubes is much of a much better quality (more diffuse) than that from either bulbs or CFLs, both of which are a near-point source casting shadows. Third, linear four-foot T-8 tubes are available in a huge variety of color temps and can have CRIs of up to 98 when excellent color rendering is absolutely necessary.

Regarding the skepticism I've read in this thread about LEDs taking over general lighting, consider that we're talking 7 or 8 years from now, and in the semiconductor business this is an eternity. Also, current claims about white LED efficiency improving to 60 lm/W next year are based on actual working preproduction prototypes, not some researcher's extrapolation. Indeed, the better binned Luxeons already are at around 40 lm/W, so 60 or 70 lm/W in a year or two isn't that much of a reach. While I don't expect to see LEDs replacing fluorescents for a lnog, long time, I think within five years they will start replacing nearly all incandescents. For example, we currently have no viable alternative to the very commonly used small base candelebra bulbs. CFLs made in that size are still larger and most are not dimmable. This is a market segment that would benefit greatly from LEDs as these bulbs have abysmal efficiency (7-10 lm/W) even for an incandescent, and an absolutely horrible yellowish light quality. 70 lm/W LED replacements would offer a seven to ten-fold efficiency improvement, very long life, and much improved light quality. Also, unlike with CFLs making a driver circuit that dims the LEDs using a standard lamp dimmer is relatively easy, and LEDs don't suffer in applications where they are frequently switched on and off. Given the huge installed base of these small energy-wasting bulbs, the energy savings using LEDs would be enormous. Once satisfactory LED incandescent replacements are on the market, the government should simply prohibit the sale of any general lighting apparatus which falls below, say, 60 lm/W, and then it can raise that number every few years as the technology improves. LEDs might still cost more than incandescents in five years even though they will pay for themselves over time. Sadly, many people only look at initial purchase price, and unless cheap incandescnet are made unavailable they will continue to buy them and waste energy. I've heard that by switching exlusively to more energy-efficient forms of lighting the US will be able to avoid building the new power plants it would otherwise have to contruct in the future.
 

Carbonium

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

### Sure, I could buy cheap CFLs made by Lights of America (or other low-profile "budget" brands) but I've seen far too many of those die out of the box - or after a few hours use - to trust budget CFLs. ###

SCE subsidizes florescent bulb purchases in Southern California so we can get good stuff real dirt cheap.

Sylvania 20w CF 1125 lumen = 50 cents each in 4 packs
Sylvania Cool white 40w 4 foot 3,000 lumen = 99 cents each in 10 packs


The two 65w/500w 84CRI lights here are under $10 each at Costco but $30 at home depot.
edison.jpg
 

jtr1962

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

I'll agree CFLs still have some problems, but they are a no-brainer for nearly all situations where standard-base incandescents are currently used, especially in a place like NYC where electric rates are going to be over $0.35 per kW-hr soon. The only exception might be a light that's switched on and off frequently but not used for very many hours per day.

One thing that really surprises me is that linear fluorescent tubes are overlooked by many outside of in kitchens and utility areas. For a brand new house it makes sense to put unobtrusive ceiling flush-mounted linear fixtures using four-foot T-8 tubes in every room rather than using CFLs in table lamps or ceiling fixtures. For starters, the tubes are dirt cheap (<$3 for better grades) and have better CRI than most CFLs. Second, the efficiency beats most CFLs by about 50% (90-100 lm/W versus 60-65 lm/W). Third, the light from linear tubes is of a much better quality (more diffuse) than that from either bulbs or CFLs, both of which are a near-point source casting shadows, and ceiling mounted fixtures waste less light and give better lighting than other types. Third, linear four-foot T-8 tubes are available in a huge variety of color temps and can have CRIs of up to 98 when excellent color rendering is absolutely necessary. Fourth, T-8 dimming ballasts allowing control of light levels are available, and would be cheaper if made in greater numbers.

Regarding the skepticism I've read in this thread about LEDs taking over general lighting, consider that we're talking 7 or 8 years from now, and in the semiconductor business this is an eternity. Also, current claims about white LED efficiency improving to 60 lm/W next year are based on actual working preproduction prototypes, not some researcher's extrapolation. Indeed, the better binned Luxeons already are at around 40 lm/W, so 60 or 70 lm/W in a year or two isn't that much of a reach. While I don't expect to see LEDs replacing fluorescents for a long, long time, I think within five years they will start replacing nearly all incandescents. For example, we currently have no viable alternative to the very commonly used small base candelebra bulbs. CFLs made in that size are still larger and most are not dimmable. This is a market segment that would benefit greatly from LEDs as these bulbs have abysmal efficiency (7-10 lm/W) even for an incandescent, and an absolutely horrible yellowish light quality. 70 lm/W LED replacements would offer a seven to ten-fold efficiency improvement, very long life, and much improved light quality. Also, unlike with CFLs making a driver circuit that dims the LEDs using a standard lamp dimmer is relatively easy, and LEDs don't suffer in applications where they are frequently switched on and off. Given the huge installed base of these small energy-wasting bulbs, the energy savings using LEDs would be enormous. Once satisfactory LED incandescent replacements are on the market, the government should simply prohibit the sale of any general lighting apparatus which falls below, say, 60 lm/W, and then it can raise that number every few years as the technology improves. LEDs might still cost more than incandescents in five years even though they will pay for themselves over time. Sadly, many people only look at initial purchase price, and unless cheap incandescents are made unavailable they will continue to buy them and waste energy. I've heard that by switching exclusively to more energy-efficient forms of lighting the US will be able to avoid building the new power plants it would otherwise have to construct in the future.
 

Lurker

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Re: \"White-light LEDs May Make Light Bulbs Obsolet

Incandescent light bulbs are not in danger of becoming extinct yet. I am a big believer in compact fluorescent lighting and have tried to convert my entire house to it. I succeeded in converting more than half of my lighting, but I learned that there are many applications where incandescents just cannot be replaced practically. Those limitations are the following:

One big factor is that there are many lights that don't get heavy use. For instance the laundry room, porch and outdoor flood lighting, attic, closets, spare bedroom, hall, etc. For these locations the payback period to recover the initial investment is at least several years. I have CF lights that won't pay for themselves within 15 years. Most people are not going to get excited about that. The costs of CFL will have to continue to fall for a while before these locations make any sense for CFLs.

Outdoor lighting in cold weather creates very delayed start-up times.

Enclosed fixtures are problematic for most CFLs.

The physical size of CFLs creates fit problems in many fixtures, especially in the higher wattages.

The quality of the light color and start-up characteristics have been extremely variable and dissapointing with most brands I have tried (Sylvania is good). Some are outright junk. Also the color trueness of even the best CFLs does not equal incandescent and this has caused a reluctance to accept them by my wife who is far more concerned that the colors of the decorations in the house look perfect than in saving a few dollars on electricity.

Dimmable lights or reading lamps with 3-way bulbs are not well supported by CFL yet.

Vanity globe lights in bathrooms where true color is important is not well supported yet.

As mentioned, chandelier lights are not well supported yet.

Small interior spot or flood lights (R-20 and R-30 bulbs ect.) are not well supported.

And finally, the total expenditure required to go through your house and replace a large number of bulbs would make the average home-owner gulp and the average renter laugh.

I think if a house were designed and built with efficient lighting in mind, it would be very practical, but most homes are thrown up as cheaply as possible and that means with incnandescent lighting throughout. Once a house is built that way, it is a small minority of people who will ever change that for the life of the building. That is why I think the extinction of incancescent lighting is not years away, not decades, but generations. Status quo is a powerful force.

What is even more telling is that I know several people (relatives, in-laws, etc.) who have undertaken very expensive home renovation projects recently (replacing and expanding the entire kitchen, bathrooms, etc.) with extensive lighting work. The most popular light fixture being designed in to these projects is the dimmable recessed halogen spot light. In no cases have I seen any fluorescent or other efficient lighting being used. The designers and builders are not recommending them and the clients are not asking for them (yes, I suggested them in some cases). This can also be seen if you go shopping for a new floor lamp or light fixture. Based on the selection available, it is obvious that the vast majority of new lighting being sold even today is good old incandescent just like our grandparents used. Premium lighting and energy-efficient lighting do not go together yet in most people's minds. I think people assume all fluorescent lighting is going to hum and flicker like many obsolete fixtures do.

Still I am glad I am using CFLs where possible, especially in those fixtures that stay on many hours per day, and I would heartily recommend them. If other technology such as LED offers an improvement or fills in some of the many gaps left by CFLs I'll definitely try to use it.
 
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