Marriage and Dogma

Let me start by stating that I'm mostly just venting right now, though I would be interested in comments from others.

The long and short of it is that my wife is a fairly devout Catholic while I could best be described as a Diest. We have had a good marriage for four years with mutually acceptable compromises on this difference.

Now we are at the stage where we are planning on kids soon and suddenly it seems like she is kicking into super dogma mode. This has been causing at least an argument a week (I'm really feeling like she just expects me to "drop in line" with the Catholics and then gets mad when I don't).

Her favorite line lately is some variation on "well, what about the childern, what are they going to believe, I don't want them confused"? And she REALLY hates my response that, we teach them what we believe but in the end what they believe is going to be their decision".

That one is sure to start an hour of glaring looks if not a full blown tiff!

I've never been good at "playing along" with things I don't believe and I'm starting to get worried that this issue is going to wind up taking us down the "D" road.

She wants to do marriage counceling...with a Catholic priest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif. I am (understandibly I think) reluctant to go there.

The Diest/rational in me is looking for other viewpoints on this matter. It's an attempt to make sure I'm not stuck "inside the box" in my own thinking.

Okay, I'm done...you may now resume your regular scheduled program /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm surprised these discussions would not have surfaced prior to the marriage. In the olden' days back when I got married, you would try to learn as much about the person as you could, especially when it came to religious beliefs and children. That would allow you to decide whether to continue with the union or not. Obviously, you're past that point now. In listening to your side of the story, my initial reaction would be to say she's unreasonable. If she's not willing to listen and compromise, you must terminate marriage and not have kids. It sounds like she let's religion rule her life and more frightening is that fact that only her religion is "right way". Cut your losses and move on. Sorry about the coldness/frankness in my response.

Can you ask here to go see a "neutral" marriage counselor?

I think before you "cut your losses and move on" you should try a marriage counselor - preferably somebody with no religious affiliations. Going to a priest is just like having somebody else try and get you to change your mind, but a non-affiliated counselor might try and have you two reach some middle ground.

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this_is_nascar said:
I'm surprised these discussions would not have surfaced prior to the marriage. In the olden' days back when I got married, you would try to learn as much about the person as you could, especially when it came to religious beliefs and children. That would allow you to decide whether to continue with the union or not. Obviously, you're past that point now. In listening to your side of the story, my initial reaction would be to say she's unreasonable. If she's not willing to listen and compromise, you must terminate marriage and not have kids. It sounds like she let's religion rule her life and more frightening is that fact that only her religion is "right way". Cut your losses and move on. Sorry about the coldness/frankness in my response.

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These discussions did take place from the start. All through dating and for the previous four years of our marriage there has been a strong theme of religious tolerance/respect in our marriage and it has been working great.

We've had some amazing, in-depth, discussions of our respective beliefs and how we could (and generally did) integrate them into a working whole.

There has been a lot of give and take. For example, we were married in a Catholic church because it was important to her, I am not required to attend church (though I went pretty frequently with her as a gesture of support), the crucifix is not displayed in our household because it upsets me, and the list goes on.

But three months ago when we decided it was time to start (a family) all of that went right the heck out the window! If I don't go to church I get the cold shoulder when she gets home (or she has a crying jag). If I do go to church she gets upset because I don't participate, I just sit (or stand) there quietly.

And then came the arguments about "what will the kids believe".

I honestly never would have believed that such an abrupt change could possibly happen and I'm really at a loss about how to deal with it.

And believe me, all plans for kids are off the schedule until this is resolved!

This is a tough one. These issues should have been taken care is up front... the marriage never should have taken place.

Never marry outside your faith.

I think a Catholic marriage councellor is apt to be more neutral than your wife is or than you may expect one to be. But you are right that there's a chance they will do a disservice to the councellor role and play sides in the religion issue. Clearly it would be a councellor from her "camp." It may well be worth it to go and give one a try, with the caveat that you will switch to a non-Catholic councellor if they are too biased. You two need help with communication, negotioation and conflict resolution. Getting that from a Catholic does not mean that you have to give up your religious beliefs or give in to your wife's in an unequal way.

It sounds to me like your wife has always secretly wanted you to convert to her religious views, but the issue has new urgency to her now that the question of children is on the table. A woman trying to change her man is a cliche. My advice is to decide what is important to you and stand your ground on that.

Try to come to some agreement that gets both of you what you want. Your wife does not have the right to change your views, but she does have a right to have her views and to share them with her children. She should be taught that you have the same rights as she does. It is ok for you to have a view and for that view to differ from hers and for you to be open about your views with your children. Clearly she does not respect these rights of yours. You cannot tolerate that situation. You need equality in your relationship in the area of intellectual freedom. Your wife does not have a monopoly in that area unless you let her have it. Any rational person will agree with that. Unfortunately people are not always rational about religion, but give her a chance.

This does create the potential to confuse the children if not handled properly. Find concepts of spirituality that you both agree on and introdocue those to your children first. The differences you have can be explained with care and patience. Children can learn very quickly and they can form opinions of their own. They have to grow up in a world of differing religious views anyway, so seeing it at home is not that big of a deal in my opinion. I have a cousin in a Catholic/Jewish marriage with a couple of great kids who are benefiting from both traditions. It can work out very well if you work at it.

I see your problem as being 1% religion and 99% communication/negotiation/respect. You posted the following quote above: "I am not required to attend church." The word "required" in that sentence makes me wonder about your relationship. You should not be letting your wife decide what is or is not "required" of you (or vice versa, I would give the same advice to a woman). Any requirements should arise from mutual agreements. Hopefully you two will work out a solution to this religion problem and at the same time gain skills that will help smooth the countless other conficts that will arise once the kids are here. If you think you have conflicts now... Oh Baby!

Finally, any possibility of divorce should be settled one way or the other before conceiving a child. If you divorce now, you have only screwed up each other's lives a little, which is OK compared to screwing up the life of an innocent child.

I don't mean to be callous, but please keep in mind that only she really can say that the "kids" are on hold. Many of us have found that out the hard way.

On the religous front, you must understand that part of her training has been that she must raise her family as catholics. It's part of the faith, and necessary to continue the church. SHE is probably more conflicted than your kids would be. After all, her god has intructed the priests to tell her that it's so.

I think Turbodog is over simplifying, but there are certain religions that demand that you not marry outside of your faith, and to break that rule invites trouble in several ways. Either one of you will leave your faith or one will lose faith althogether or you'll end up fighting someone's sense of guilt.

You could follow the time honored tradition established by centuries of love struck men. Suck it up, pretend to embrace her faith and provide the appropriate lip service. Don't ever tell her that you are doing it. Don't ever try to make her feel bad about it and you'd be suprised how well it works.

My mother in law is catholic/budist. She "converted" to marry in the 1940s.

Just don't forget, she is only following her God's instructions. It's not a power play on her part. If you don't have strong religeous beleifs it doesn't matter too much which church you stop in at once a week or so.

BTW, It's not at all unreasonable for the two of you to intellectually agree before marriage only to find that her upbringing contradicts it when it comes time to act.

Good luck, and keep in mind that a good woman is extremely hard to find. All of us have some flaws that need to be overlooked.

Daniel

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I don't mean to be callous, but please keep in mind that only she really can say that the "kids" are on hold. Many of us have found that out the hard way.

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Knowing this should it make a possible yet not easy task to come up with some countermeasures. There are plenty ...

bernie

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gadget_lover said:
I don't mean to be callous, but please keep in mind that only she really can say that the "kids" are on hold.

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I'm not sure what you mean. If I choose not to have marital relations until this is resolved then there will be no kids until this is resolved. It's not a game, it's a decision. I'm in my late 30's, not a hormone driven teen.

I've always thought the only sane course was to let your children decide on their faith, if any, once they become adults. Childhood indoctrination is, well, exactly that even if it makes sense because ministers want to expand their flock, and a young child is particularly susceptible to the "magical thinking" of religious instruction just as they believe fairy stories and Santa Claus. To me it is tantamount to brain-washing and child abuse to force a child to learn whatever faith you have chosen, especially when such instruction involves things like telling a child he/she will go to hell if they don't live a pious life. With all the problems in today's world already that's the last thing any child needs to hear. It shouldn't even be allowed. I was sent to religious instruction once a week as a child and hated every minute of it. I even in effect told one of the instructors that I saw no point at all and no logic to his system of beliefs. It's one thing to send your child to school to learn the skills they'll need as an adult. However, religion doesn't fall into that category as many adults, myself included, lead perfectly happy lives entirely free of religious beliefs of any sort.

As for the answer to your wife's question: "well, what about the childern, what are they going to believe, I don't want them confused" how about telling her whatever they choose to believe when they're of such an age that they can truly understand the different belief systems. If they choose "none of the above", then so be it. A two-year old or five-year old or even a fifteen-year old simply can't make a rational choice here without coercion. All they're doing is following the parent's lead, often under threat of punishment if they don't (this is why most religions frankly seem like cults to me). That's hardly creating a believer, if indeed that is your wife's goal. From what I understand about these religious belief systems, you're not a true believer unless you've voluntarily given yourself over.

P.S. I didn't post the above with any intent to offend those who are religious. I respect your beliefs provided you arrived at them of your own free will. Please respect my choice to not believe as well.

I sincerely hope you can find a middle ground and continue a happy marriage; one where love, respect, reason, trust, and communication (among many other things) rule.

Although I come from a Catholic family (priests and nuns in the family...) and I married a woman who comes from a devout Catholic family, we have not raised our children to follow Catholic dogma. There are different religious options for them to choose, and we are open to the idea that they will eventually choose the one they seem best for them.

We've had some serious conversations about God, spirituality, and religions with my 11 yr-old son, and I am happy to know that he will be able to make his own choice when it comes to religion. I am not one to impose religious beliefs upon others, and that includes my children. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Be careful and lets not let this thread become a trainwreck!!

IMHO, discussing religion (or politics) in public is very much like trying to train a cat, frustrates the trainer and pisses off the cat, and nothing gets accomplished. If you really want some resolution to your problem, seek some professional help.

How about the Unitarians? They would be perfectly happy with a Wife who is a devout Catholic, and a Husband who is a diest, and have no problems with your kids attending both!! (6th grade is typically comparative religion in their Sunday school)

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zespectre said:
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gadget_lover said:
I don't mean to be callous, but please keep in mind that only she really can say that the "kids" are on hold.

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I'm not sure what you mean. If I choose not to have marital relations until this is resolved then there will be no kids until this is resolved. It's not a game, it's a decision. I'm in my late 30's, not a hormone driven teen.

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In my experience, a woman who wants to get pregnant will. And any woman who wants to seduce her husband generally will be successful, especially amidst assurances that "it's safe".

No, it's not a game, but when a person sees their marriage in jeopardy they often do desperate things that they would not otherwiase do. It's not a good thing, but
it does happen.

Realistically, the best thing to do is to go to a marriage councelor and try to work it out so that both of you are OK with it. If you are compatible in all the other important ways you shoudl be able to work through this too.

Daniel
(BTW, I know of several mixed marriages where one spouse agreed to raise the kids under a faith that one did not believe. No pretense, just support. The kids came out OK.)

I'm in with Roy here, best to seek professional help. In this case a professional is a priest. This isn't a new or unique issue for Catholic families and I would be surprised if the clergy was not well prepared to offer you both sound advice. If you really feel uncomfortable talking to someone who you think would just be your wife's advocate, how about going to an Episcopalian priest. They're familiar with the Catholic tradition and yet are obviously less concerned with the need to be Catholic. I would go alone at first and find someone you are comfortable with and then approach your wife. I wish the best for your family.

Roy, I appreciate the concerns you mentioned.

To everyone else. Thanks for being mature about this and giving me some general points of view to consider (from all over the map).

This is precisely why I posted, to get some feedback from people who were "out of the loop" and might have something generally unbiased to say. (unbiased in the sense of not leaning towards me or her).

Thanks everyone.

23 years ago when my husband and I wanted to get married, we visited both the Catholic church, as he was raised Catholic, and the Protestant church, as I was raised Protestant. The Catholic priest told me that I would have to convert to Catholicism in order to be married in his church. When I told I didn't want to, he told us he wouldn't marry us and then went on further to explain that if we decided to get married in a non-catholic church, any children that we had would not be recognized by the Catholic church and would be considered *******s. The minister at the Protestant church was very happy to marry us and bless our children... as legitimate.

Our two children have been raised with no particular religious beliefs but with many different beliefs. Mostly they have been raised to believe in simply a higher being and told that if they had an interest in religion, they could research and pursue any religion they themselves chose. When my daughter went off to University, she had to take a religions class for her degree. She was exposed to all religions... some I'd never even heard of. In the end she chose to follow the Pagan ways... the old Celtic Druid ways. Through her, I have also found those ways to be the most logical for me. They simply "make sense" to me. My son was exposed to the Catholic church when a few years ago he was forbidden to be friends with someone he went to school with because the parents said, "he doesn't go to church... you can't be friends with him". Nice. We have copies of the Bible, the Holy Quran and the book of Oahspe in our house. There are also various books of Celtic beliefs. The children are free to pursue and believe what for them "makes sense".

One thought... you were married in a Catholic church with a Catholic ceremony. You may want to go back and review your vows. If I remember correctly, it is actually part of the vows that you will raise any children of your union in the Catholic church. You may already be sunk... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wasn't aware that a Catholic wedding involving a non-Catholic partner, is permitted by the Church without a promise from the non-Catholic to raise any kids resulting from the marriage as Catholic. Not being Catholic, I'm relying on experiences other than my own, but sources I'm relatively confident with.

If such is the case, then you've vowed to permit it. If so, I'd consider it as valid as any other promises you made regarding your marriage. If not the case, then this posting isn't worth the electrons used to create it.

Edit: It looks like Sasha was posting while I was. She offers good information too.

If you had a side deal, then this supercedes a public ceremony with vows that may have been more for community and your wife's family than pure sacred vow. It sounds like you had an understanding between you and your wife.

The drive behind her desires are likely powerful and may even include the need for acceptance from her own family (of course we know little of your situation). Please don't underestimate this. If you "win" in this conflict, that may only be surface or even subterfuge. Any drive she feels now will only get stronger, just as all small issues in a marriage grow exponentially upon the arrival of children.

My personal example may have been somewhat similar. Even though my ex wife (with no encouragement from me) chose to forgo her Catholic heritage, that is not the case now. I never solicited it from her, but she promised she would never raise the children with religion and that would be their choice as adults. Recently during visitation I found my 5 year old son hiding in a bathroom asking for privacy at bedtime. After much cajoling he finally admitted he was praying to god and that his mother told him to keep it secret from me. I brought this issue up to her and she told me she was just honoring his wishes because he chose to believe in God since he was 4! Of course this is deceitful and even abusive. My son clasps his hands as if in prayer when asking for something from people (out of confusion) and his older siblings were unaware of this secret he had with his mother. Hopefully you are married to a better person; however I also hope this illustrates my point. Some of these social pressures can be so great as to bring on what is clearly abuse of children. It would have been much better if she had been honest and we had just taught our children opposing beliefs. Having agreements are great if they can be abided. Those who make agreements and don't keep them are not to be trusted in my experience.