Advantages of titanium?

[McGizmo]

Titanium tubing is used in industry where liquids and gases of a corrosive nature are a real consideration and must be addressed. There are certain acids and other chemicals which can be corrosive to Ti and obviously the spec on methanol is something engineers need to be aware of. I would guess that cautions as stretching as cleaning the threads with methanol could be brought up for most metals but the relevance needs to be factored in. Most corrosion situations also require a time factor and circumstances held in constant during the time period. I would be curious if Marduke could give an example of a cleaning agent containing methanol that actually would cause any noticeable degradation to Ti in the application of cleaning the threads where presumably after cleaning the threads the cleaner would either evaporate or be removed, the Ti would then quickly oxidize gaining its protective film and likely some lube then applied.

I am aware of a number of advantages to Ti that have significance and relevance to me. These advantages may have no significance or relevance to others. I would say that I am indifferent to bling but actually I have an aversion to it and see it as a disadvantage that needs to be overcome. Ceteris Paribus, I would be reluctant to own a Rollex Watch these days because of the bling associated. For starters, there are more accurate watches at a fraction of the cost and they are lighter by virtue of their Ti cases and bracelets! :nana: I consider my Luminox Titanium a reasonable case in point.

IMHO, the two most significant disadvantages to Ti, relative to use in flashlights, are cost and weight. For small runs, the high cost can be an advantage because the setup involved becomes a small proportion of overall cost and the much greater machine time required per part means a smaller run will take the same amount of time as a much greater run of say aluminum parts. Most shops have minimums and these minimums can be met with much fewer titanium parts than other materials.

As mentioned above in other posts, there is also the advantage with Ti of no need for adding a protective film as an additional step provided by an additional vendor. In the case of aluminum, it is expected to have an aluminum part processed with anodizing where a protective film of oxide is produced and covers the substrate. Ti oxidizes as soon as it is machined and will replenish its oxide layer anytime it is scared provided air is around to provide the oxygen. Ti has a self healing skin and although the healing may show some scars, it does heal and rather quickly! If cosmetic are important to you, you can easily apply cosmetic surgery to the Ti and let it heal in a surface texture that meets your cosmetic requirements. The good news is that cosmetics in regards to Ti are purely cosmetic and unnecessary beyond the look. Ti can face the bad world naked with no ill effects. I can't make the same claim!

 

[KiwiMark]

My 2c:

The disadvantages of Ti:
- no tailcap lockout
- price
- weight

The advantages of Ti:
- durability and the way it wears

Regardless of any other points raised in this thread I am not convinced that there is more to it than the above points. Aluminium is great in so many ways - light, relatively cheap and easy to have a quick twist of the tailcap to lockout the light for when it is in your pocket. But the obvious disadvantage of Al that is not there with Ti is the way it wears (as others have pointed out). With my old Maglite Solitaire which used to live in my pocket, the anodising (HA2?) wore off. While HA3 is better and less likely to wear or chip, it still can. When the HA3 gets chipped or scratched it looks bad, when the Ti gets scratched it looks good like always.

IMO:
Al is fine for a shelf queen, but for a regularly used torch Ti is better - it just wears so darned well. Expensive? Well after 20 years of carrying a Ti light every day and it still looking nice it may not seem so expensive (but it will be 2028 before I get to that point).

BTW:
Paying more for quality is not necessarily expensive. I have been carrying a Leatherman Wave and a Victorinox Cybertool almost every day for over a decade - they are still in good condition and working well. The Victorinox Cybertool has all the original bits and the pen still writes, despite being over a decade old.

 

[js]

KiwiMark,

A PD pack could easily be made to have a lock-out feature, but the design would have to be altered a bit so that the piston nub were turned into something more like a button, and a separate part, that flared out, and which would catch on the outer body after a certain length of travel. This would mean no candle-mode, recessed piston nub.

But the thing is that the recessed piston nub just isn't going to be activated accidentally--or it is highly unlikely to be accidentally activated. I can throw my LS20 into a bag or a pocket and I never worry about accidental activation. My SF A2, on the other hand, would indeed accidentally activate due to the lack of a surround. I would often turn the tailcap back a turn so that any activation was just of the low beam, but usually I didn't bother, and the low beam would sometimes turn on when I sat down or got up or whatever. No big deal. But this was a consequence of the lack of a flare around the button, which is exactly what the PD pack does have. On the other hand, if you get rid of that, and make a screw-in thumb button, as heckboy did to his McGizmo light, then you could easily add a LOTC feature. But at that point, you would actually need it!!!

I don't need it. And thus don't miss it.

 

[brucec]

I don't see lockout being necessary in the current PD design either.

Regarding Ti vs Al, I think everyone can agree that a good quality flashlight can be made from Al and that just being made of Ti is not a necessary prerequisite nor indicator of quality or performance. However, my belief is that in general, Ti lights are made to a higher (albeit unnecessary) standard and that in and of itself can be appreciated. My automatic mechanical watches are not as accurate as modern quartz or radio watches and they require more maintenance and care. However, they are generally built to a higher standard of machining, assembly, and QC, which I appreciate. I believe I would enjoy my McGizmo lights just the same even if he had chosen a different material such as Al. For me, the workmanship and maker's reputation are more important than the base material which I view as secondary.

 

[Woods Walker]

Some alloys of Ti transfer heat better than stainless steel or even mild steel. Or at least that has been my observation with my tent stove building hobby however this greater heat transfer only seems to happen at temps that would burn the skin right off someone's hands. Again I am no expert and these observations are based on stove building. I kinda like Ti. I pack Ti cookware and even a spork. It is UL and very far more resistant to rust than even stainless.

 

[KiwiMark]

KiwiMark,

A PD pack could easily be made to have a lock-out feature, but the design would have to be altered a bit

Maybe I should have phrased it a bit differently. I was meaning that the anodised threads on most good Al lights meant that it is easy to lock out the light without the designers having even thought of the idea - because the HA is not conductive. Whereas on a Ti light the threads conduct power easily so there is no lockout unless the designers factored one in.

If the design of a Ti light incorporates a lockout feature or you don't consider that feature necessary then there is only 2 disadvantages to the Ti light - weight & price. If you are willing to pay the higher price and a few grams of extra weight is no biggie then buying a Ti light for the superior durability is worth considering.

 

[McGizmo]

KiwiMark,
Your clarification makes sense and I was confused initially in your focus on a lock out tail cap as it seemed way to specific relative to the OP's question.

As a builder and designer of some flashlights, I found I could capitalize on the fact that anodized aluminum was an electrical barrier and I also realized early on that depending on the anodize film for electrical isolation could also be an initiation to disaster in some cases! One obvious case is in depending on anodized threads to remain intact and insure isolation or any other anodized surfaces which are in motion against each other in use or function. My bare Ti lights require designed in air gaps for electrical isolation and obviously should these gaps be bridged by electrically conductive contaminants or dust bunnies, unwanted results can occur. Anodized aluminum can have a design advantage in that provided the anodize film is not compromised, you do have a film of electrical protection. If the film is a surface where wear is a factor and this film is required then the system has the potential of wearing out, plain and simple. I have seen some flashlight designs where this is the case and I do expect that some of these lights will ultimately wear out.

In general, an advantage to titanium is that it is electrically conductive even in its natural, oxidized state. A disadvantage to titanium is that it is electrically conductive. This is probably a simple example of how an advantage has its counter part in disadvantage. A great advantage can be viewed as a great disadvantage from a different perspective. It seems to me that the yin and yang of strengths and weaknesses are present and even abundant in most situations and good designs and compromises take these into consideration!

 

[E__WOK]

Methanol (a common component of many cleaning solvents) will cause stress corrosion cracking in titanium.

if methanol will cause metal corrosion, what would it do to the human body?

 

[NoFair]

The biology lab I used to work at use lab grade pure methanol for a lot of protein work, and bromine too. Good thing I didn't have any titanium watch or such. :duck:

I have a Ti wedding ring and haven't seen any effect from working with methanol and bromine. I try not to spill to much, especially the bromine:green:

I generally love ti for most uses, but it is a bit expensive at times..

 

[KiwiMark]

if methanol will cause metal corrosion, what would it do to the human body?

Most commonly ingestion of methanol is known to cause blindness.

 

[drmaxx]

Titanium tubing is used in industry where liquids and gases of a corrosive nature are a real consideration and must be addressed. There are certain acids and other chemicals which can be corrosive to Ti and obviously the spec on methanol is something engineers need to be aware of.

The seweage pipes in Airbus (and probably others as well) are made out of titanium. Weight, durability and the low thermal expansion seems to be the deciding factors.

Very interesting thread. For quite a while I was wondering why titanium was used for flashlights.

 

[DM51]

The seweage pipes in Airbus ... are made out of titanium

LOL, imagine the mess if someone poured some methanol-adulterated vodka down the sink during a flight... :sick2:

 

[Hitthespot]

I would be reluctant to own a Rollex Watch these days

Watch it there buddy, them there is fighten words..........and it's ROLEX. :nana:

Bill

 

[McGizmo]

Hitthespot,
I stand corrected. The first watch I ever bought was the result of saving up all of my earnings from a summer job and it was a Rolex (Tudor movement) dive watch. At the time, it was the only watch I knew of that could be continually immersed in water and not end up with some flooding and failure. I think I wore that watch for about 12 years (24/7/365) until a seal finally failed and it was my fault because I did not have the watch serviced in any reasonable time frame. For a mechanical time piece, the Rolex is still a wonder. If Rolex were to offer a quartz watch in a Ti case, I know I would be interested but I doubt I could be enticed to pay the anticipated price of admission. I would be more interested still if they were to offer something in Ti that was capable of setting a new standard in achievement and not resting on one they set 50 years ago or so.

I really think the issue of the methanol and stress corrosion is a red herring. Specifically what are the conditions required for this stress corrosion to take place to an extent of significant damage and compromise to something like a flashlight? I could claim that a Ti flashlight can survive in an elevated temperature environment where an aluminum flashlight would be melted. OK, so don't use your aluminum light in 1500 F environment or what ever the melting temp is. Duh!

I have a couple surfskis (sit on top Kayaks) that get taken out on the ocean and rarely are they properly rinsed off or the gear attached properly rinsed and cleaned. They have deck bags that have nylon zipper teeth but lame cast aluminum zippers. The zippers have seized up due to the white oxide growth and corrosion. There are some Ti gate snaps which unfortunately were made with stainless steel spring gates. All of the gates have corroded and broken off. I replaced all of the stainless fasteners with Ti fasteners and there is no evidence of any corrosion or compromise to them. If you are negligent or completely ignore proper maintenance like I am inclined to do, Ti has some proven advantages.

I don't scuba dive that often and with something as critical as a regulator and knowing my propensity to maintenance avoidance, I purchased an AtomicAquatics Ti regulator a number of years ago. By virtue of its actual design in addition to the use of Ti, this regulator can go extended periods between servicing and my regulator looks as good now as it did when first purchased and this is not due to any special care provided by me. More important, it works as it should! I guess the underlying point is that Ti can be ignored without any detrimental effects.

 

[Hitthespot]

Hitthespot,
I stand corrected. The first watch I ever bought was the result of saving up all of my earnings from a summer job and it was a Rolex (Tudor movement) dive watch. At the time, it was the only watch I knew of that could be continually immersed in water and not end up with some flooding and failure. I think I wore that watch for about 12 years (24/7/365) until a seal finally failed and it was my fault because I did not have the watch serviced in any reasonable time frame. For a mechanical time piece, the Rolex is still a wonder. If Rolex were to offer a quartz watch in a Ti case, I know I would be interested but I doubt I could be enticed to pay the anticipated price of admission. I would be more interested still if they were to offer something in Ti that was capable of setting a new standard in achievement and not resting on one they set 50 years ago or so.

My story is a little different. I loved watches from the time I was a teenager. When I got my first real job, many of the engineers and high powered reps came in with Rolex's on. Always way out of my reach financially it seemed a blue ribbon goal I would never achieve. Every year when the kids and wife, parents would ask me what I wanted for christmas I would laugh and spell R.O.L.E.X. Every year it was just expected from everyone to hear me spell Rolex and everyone laughed. About 6 years ago my wife bought me a Rolex Submariner two tone (SS / Gold ) for Christmas. I was so moved I believed a tear was seen. The watch has not left my wrist, I sleep, eat, and shower in it. I know there are better watches (and I know you know I was just kidding you) but for some reason Rolex owners are more passionate about their watches than I've ever seen a flashaholic over a light. This watch obviously means a lot to me and at todays approx $7000.00 price tag, I could never afford another one.

The only other thing I really now hope to own that is considered a little on the pricey side is a McGizmo!


On topic: I always thought the 904L Stainless Steel that Rolex used was almost as good as Titanium for corrosion and acid resistance?

God Bless

Bill

 

[GreyShark]

If you're worried about methanol on titanium you should also fear bleach or chlorine on aluminum. Not only will it eat aluminum but it also produces a toxic gas.

 

[StarHalo]

I'd rather have the McGizmo than the Rolex.

If you're worried about methanol on titanium you should also fear bleach or chlorine on aluminum. Not only will it eat aluminum but it also produces a toxic gas.

The flashaholic way of viewing this is "What kind of pretty/unique finish can I give my Al light using bleach or chlorine.."

 

[GreyShark]

Is the moth eaten look in this season?

 

[AA6TZ]

My story is a little different. I loved watches from the time I was a teenager.

God Bless

Bill

Bill - I, too, share your passion for watches. Sure love the looks of your Submariner !!! :thumbsup:

As early as the mid-50's (when I was just a kid), Rolex wristwatches graced the pages of what seemed every issue of National Geographic, a magazine my parents faithfully subscribed to since it first hit the newsstands. I was initially drawn to Rolex's famously stellar looks, but then, after having read their glorious history (and premise), I became hooked and had to own one "some day."

That fortunate day came much later (in 1985) when I purchased this "superlative" D) model, new from Don Laviano, Master Watchmaker/Jeweler located in New York City. I do believe that if I were to wear that gawdy thing today in my old stomping grounds (Los Angeles), the odds are high I'd get my wrist Sawzalled-off by some street thug who "needed" the ol' Rolex more than I.

We Flashaholics appear to share a myriad of similar, non-flashlight related interests (e.g., guns, knives, audio, home theater, photography, etc., etc.) and derive mucho enjoyment from fine watches, in particular. Perhaps if we, during our passionate earlier years of collecting, had a robust enthusiasm for, say, the fine art of offset printing . . . we could have "bailed ourselves out" of the certain astronomical debt we'd have incurred when our entrepreneurial buying habits (far) exceeded the economic restrictions sanctioned by our less-than-filled-to-capacity wallets. I suppose it's still not too late to pick-up a used Heidelberg . . . :devil:

Happily...and unlike several of the aforementioned hobbies/interests, Flashaholicism doesn't require we break the bank in order to actively participate in virtually every facet of high-end illumination!

Cheers! :twothumbs

-Clive