Longbow
Enlightened
At one time Surefires were worth the buck. But today it's questionable.
Are Surefires really worth the $$$ ?
- Thread starter Firebladz
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lightplay22
Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2005
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I think surefires are worth it if it meets the need you have for the light. My first surefire was an e1 that I bought on clearance about 4 years ago for $40.00. This light has went with me 7 days a week untill last week when I recieved my HDS basic 42. The e1 never failed me in those years and I figure $10.00 a year is cheap for faultless service of a tool. (Really a great light!)
My A2 was $145.00 (a lot) but when I think of a tool that works perfectly for my needs that may last 10, 15, 20 years or more, the high price doesen't seem so high to me.
The HDS was also expensive but in ten years if it is still in service to me, I figure $12.50 or so per year is not much for such a capable and dependable light that meets my needs.
My g2's sit quietly for emergency use, something that all my other alkaline powered lights proved unreliable at. Nothing like a good 3d mag that won't shine when you need it and then requires a pipe wrench to get the end cap off! Love those lithiums!
My A2 was $145.00 (a lot) but when I think of a tool that works perfectly for my needs that may last 10, 15, 20 years or more, the high price doesen't seem so high to me.
The HDS was also expensive but in ten years if it is still in service to me, I figure $12.50 or so per year is not much for such a capable and dependable light that meets my needs.
My g2's sit quietly for emergency use, something that all my other alkaline powered lights proved unreliable at. Nothing like a good 3d mag that won't shine when you need it and then requires a pipe wrench to get the end cap off! Love those lithiums!
I think Surefires are still worth it if you have a use for them (and sometimes if you don't). I have had an E2 Executive in Satin Gray for roughly 4 years that has been with me everywhere for those four years. I have not had a single failure with it. It has been dropped, kicked, thrown, submerged, washed, made fun of for its size, crushed, and used as a wedge to hold something open. Cosmetically, there are a lot of little scratches here and there and there is also a barely noticeable dent on the bezel that came from a 6 foot drop onto concrete. The checkering on rubber button is almost gone. I probably went through two boxes of batteries a year. But, I have definitely gotten my worth of $70 (and the cost of batteries) out of that light and have just recently purchased the Black A2 to replace it as an EDC. But, it still continues on as an EDC with my girlfriend (along with a new lamp). If I added up the number of times that something happened to it that would break a $5 -$20 lesser flashlight, the cost would be more than $70. I believe in buying quality once rather than having to buy something cheap over and over again. The initial price may be high, but the rewards pay off in the long run of reliability and security.
Bravo25
Flashlight Enthusiast
Suffice it to say I hope they are worth it, as many of them as I own that is.
Thank you! thank you!! thank you!!!
For the life of me I can't understand why more people don't seem to recognize that the lamp assembly IS THE FLASHLIGHT !
The Lamp Assembly is the heart, it is the light engine for the flashlight everything thing else is there to help it do it's job of making light!
Having said that I never recommend a Sure Fire as the "first" quality light to a person that doesn't need a professional flashlight.
I would recommend a Streamlight model instead, it will do the job for 99% of people.
For the life of me I can't understand why more people don't seem to recognize that the lamp assembly IS THE FLASHLIGHT !
The Lamp Assembly is the heart, it is the light engine for the flashlight everything thing else is there to help it do it's job of making light!
Having said that I never recommend a Sure Fire as the "first" quality light to a person that doesn't need a professional flashlight.
I would recommend a Streamlight model instead, it will do the job for 99% of people.
cy said:
Firebladz
Newly Enlightened
Longbow said:
Agreed...
I see way to many people sending their lights in for warranty work, even new out of the box... Where is the quality control?
I mean these lights are mostly designed for LEOs and military and with their price tags there just shouldn't be any issues what so ever out of the box...
I am NOT bashing surefire but I just think people should expect more and surefire should expect more fom themself...
I mean they are supposed to be the top dog the best of the best?
Firebladz.
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Size15's
Flashaholic
I think we see issues with SureFires highlighted more so then other brands.
The expection of performance is greater and so it is considered worth drawing attention to issues.
Recently it appears to me that Streamlights have had quite a lot of issues highlighted.
I find it difficult to make "judgements" of issues because the data is so incomplete. Perhaps we should generate data?
An online form could be created that can be used to gather data on the flashlights we own and how much we use each one, including "failure" or "issue" reports.
Al
The expection of performance is greater and so it is considered worth drawing attention to issues.
Recently it appears to me that Streamlights have had quite a lot of issues highlighted.
I find it difficult to make "judgements" of issues because the data is so incomplete. Perhaps we should generate data?
An online form could be created that can be used to gather data on the flashlights we own and how much we use each one, including "failure" or "issue" reports.
Al
Firebladz said:
This is not something that makes me happy either.
However, you have to remember that the 6P and its cousins are vastly simpler in construction than something like an L2 or A2. You are more likely to get "materials and workmanship" issues straight from the factory than with the dirt-simple 6P.
From a user's point of view, you should run a few sets of batteries through a light before you put in a positions where it needs to be trusted. It is also a good idea to "field strip" your complicated little device every so often -- whether a SureFire or some other brand -- and make sure everything is clean and in good working order.
I don't worry about issues with new lights. That is just a fact of life with manufacturing. Some finite percentage of products will come off the line flawed. It happens with all brands. SureFire is good for it, so it shouldn't be more than a temporary inconvenience.
The things that worry me are flaws that affect the light mid-life. If I drop a light and the bulb breaks, OK. I replace the bulb (or lamp assembly). But if I drop it and the bulb rattles around between the reflector and the lens where I can't get it out, NOT OK. That is a design issue that gets the light instantly retired. Likewise with a switch or LED that fails after routine use.
What I am saying is that you get a better design with SureFire. That is where you get true reliability -- having a design that will withstand things that you haven't even thought of, but the design team did. For me, that is where SureFires are worth the money.
Scott
Also, since there are more and more Surefires, you will hear more about their failings than the success. Like Bushmaster in the firearms world. You hear more Bushmaster failings than any other company (other than Colt), but Bushmaster produces a vastly larger number of rifles than the competition (RRA, Olympic, DPMS, etc.). Surefire is also widely known and thus you hear more discussion about Surefire as well.
TonkinWarrior
Enlightened
There's no doubt that Surefire has many excellent "value" competitors. In my experience, Inova, Streamlight, and Princeton Tec readily come to mind as great Bang For The Buck flashlights. The tough Inova T2 ($45) and little PTec Attitude ($10-15) may be the biggest "sleeper" values anywhere.
That said, however, the one huge area where Surefire consistently out-performs the competition is in EXCEDING EXPECTATIONS. While just about every other manufacturer EXAGGERATES their lights' actual performance ratings (lumen output, runtime, beam quality, etc.), Surefire does NOT exaggerate.
Stories of knowledgeable Surefire owners reporting performance BEYOND the "advertised" stats are legion here in CPF world. Can you say this about other brands? Where most manufacturers' numbers are often inflated, or based upon the first few minutes of a new/cherry-picked example in a dirt-free lab-test, SF's "numbers" seem to be more like real-world/performance average stats after being "broken-in" during grueling field tests run by hard-eyed military weapons systems evaluators.
Here's my own illustrative Surefire story. My KL1 LED head arrived with a minor flaw in its pyrex lense late last year. I sent it back to Surefire. They replaced it with a new -- and better -- KL1 that must be on steroids! Its brightness appears noticeably beyond that of others I've seen, and it's certainly better than the advertised numbers. That tells me their engineering dept. is refreshingly superior to their advertising group -- and that's absolutely unique in today's over-hyped marketplace.
A product that consistently delivers on -- or excedes -- its manufacturer's promises is a product to be cherished. And that "worth" is hard to put a price on -- especially in "crunch-time."
That said, however, the one huge area where Surefire consistently out-performs the competition is in EXCEDING EXPECTATIONS. While just about every other manufacturer EXAGGERATES their lights' actual performance ratings (lumen output, runtime, beam quality, etc.), Surefire does NOT exaggerate.
Stories of knowledgeable Surefire owners reporting performance BEYOND the "advertised" stats are legion here in CPF world. Can you say this about other brands? Where most manufacturers' numbers are often inflated, or based upon the first few minutes of a new/cherry-picked example in a dirt-free lab-test, SF's "numbers" seem to be more like real-world/performance average stats after being "broken-in" during grueling field tests run by hard-eyed military weapons systems evaluators.
Here's my own illustrative Surefire story. My KL1 LED head arrived with a minor flaw in its pyrex lense late last year. I sent it back to Surefire. They replaced it with a new -- and better -- KL1 that must be on steroids! Its brightness appears noticeably beyond that of others I've seen, and it's certainly better than the advertised numbers. That tells me their engineering dept. is refreshingly superior to their advertising group -- and that's absolutely unique in today's over-hyped marketplace.
A product that consistently delivers on -- or excedes -- its manufacturer's promises is a product to be cherished. And that "worth" is hard to put a price on -- especially in "crunch-time."
weaponlight
Newly Enlightened
Firebladz said:
Huh? What Surefire lights are you using? I have literally bet my life on several of them in Iraq. In what I am currently doing, you have to 'Own the Night'.
My M 500 A Weaponlight has never let me down from caves in Afghanistan to night urban ops in Iraq. Its been banged around, soaking wet, covered with dirt, 120 degree days, through a few lamp assemblies and countless 123's, but never had a problem.
My experiance is when you do have a problem, Surefire does all they can to make it right. The incan on my A2 got quirkey and I sent it in. I forgot to take off the sand scratched F05 red filter that was on it. When the light came back from Surefire, there was a box of 123's and a NEW F05 gratis.
See any other lights in my signature?
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TheFlash
Newly Enlightened
This is going to sound like a testimonial for Surefire, but I have to emphatically say first, "Yes! Surefires are worth it!"
This past summer (in August), I was on a houseboat trip on Lake Powell in Arizona/Utah. We had our 60 foot long houseboat anchored to the shore with four sturdy, metal land anchors and heavy nylon ropes. During the evening, around 8PM, a storm passed through the area kicking up some fierce winds and placing a lot of strain on the ropes and anchors. By 9PM, two of the anchors, both on the starboard side of the boat, gave it up and tore loose. Immediately, the boat started moving and thrashing. Everyone on the boat jumped up and started moving to get the boat under control.
A few people grabbed the feeble, old-fashioned flashlights which were on board, while I raced to my backpack and grabbed both my Surefire G2 and my Surefire L4 and headed outside.
No one really wanted to be outside because the fierce winds were picking up the sand from the surrounding sandstone cliffs and whipping it into the air. Everyone who was outside was being abraded by the winds and flying sand. Our eyes were squinted against the flying sand and we were chewing grit, but the boat had to be re-anchored immediately!
The people who had grabbed the old-fashioned flashlights from the houseboat had them on, but you couldn't even really see that the lights were on. They projected feeble pools of amber light…
I immediately turned on my G2 and gave it to a friend who directed the powerful beam onto the shore and on one of the teams of people who were pounding in one of the land anchors to get the boat under control. Then, with my L4, I provided light to the entire area. That L4 and its LED provided a beam that was easily powerful enough to light up the entire shore area and enabled the remaining crew to see what they were doing and hammer in the other land anchor.
When the boat was secured and all came back on board, everyone was asking me about those two flashlights we used. They were all impressed with the power of the beams and how easily the re-anchoring was accomplished with the Surefires' bright light projection.
Even if we could not have re-anchored the boat quickly, I still felt secure that we could make it through that little emergency. This was because in my backpack, I had 4 extra CR123 batteries, just in case more light time is ever needed.
That is only one of the very few times when Surefires have really saved the day (or night).
My recommendation: Get the G2 first and go from there…
Regards,
Mike
This past summer (in August), I was on a houseboat trip on Lake Powell in Arizona/Utah. We had our 60 foot long houseboat anchored to the shore with four sturdy, metal land anchors and heavy nylon ropes. During the evening, around 8PM, a storm passed through the area kicking up some fierce winds and placing a lot of strain on the ropes and anchors. By 9PM, two of the anchors, both on the starboard side of the boat, gave it up and tore loose. Immediately, the boat started moving and thrashing. Everyone on the boat jumped up and started moving to get the boat under control.
A few people grabbed the feeble, old-fashioned flashlights which were on board, while I raced to my backpack and grabbed both my Surefire G2 and my Surefire L4 and headed outside.
No one really wanted to be outside because the fierce winds were picking up the sand from the surrounding sandstone cliffs and whipping it into the air. Everyone who was outside was being abraded by the winds and flying sand. Our eyes were squinted against the flying sand and we were chewing grit, but the boat had to be re-anchored immediately!
The people who had grabbed the old-fashioned flashlights from the houseboat had them on, but you couldn't even really see that the lights were on. They projected feeble pools of amber light…
I immediately turned on my G2 and gave it to a friend who directed the powerful beam onto the shore and on one of the teams of people who were pounding in one of the land anchors to get the boat under control. Then, with my L4, I provided light to the entire area. That L4 and its LED provided a beam that was easily powerful enough to light up the entire shore area and enabled the remaining crew to see what they were doing and hammer in the other land anchor.
When the boat was secured and all came back on board, everyone was asking me about those two flashlights we used. They were all impressed with the power of the beams and how easily the re-anchoring was accomplished with the Surefires' bright light projection.
Even if we could not have re-anchored the boat quickly, I still felt secure that we could make it through that little emergency. This was because in my backpack, I had 4 extra CR123 batteries, just in case more light time is ever needed.
That is only one of the very few times when Surefires have really saved the day (or night).
My recommendation: Get the G2 first and go from there…
Regards,
Mike
vtunderground
Enlightened
IMHO, no, Surefire's are not worth the money. My LEAST reliable flashlight is my E2e (bulb assembly falls out and breaks during battery changes, clickie switch occasionally stops working). For the same money I bought a Pelican M6 LED HA-III, which is brighter (brighter spill and longer throw), has a Luxeon III LED, regulation, longer battery life, and is of comparable quality. I have heavily used and abused the Pelican, but haven't had a single problem.
vtunderground said:
Is this a fair comparison? You're comparing a relatively fragile incandescent with a 'bombproof' LED - it's like complaining about how fragile a Chinese made car is next to an IFV, though the switch I would have sent back to Surefire ages ago as a genuine warantee issue which would let you take advantage of the lifetime guarantee they offer. I haven't heard too much about the switches breaking otherwise - for the most part, they seem reliable.
Still, YMMV - some people swear by Princeton Tec, for example.
TonkinWarrior
Enlightened
Mike/TheFlash:
That's a great story. Send it in to Surefire. Betcha they'll print it on their website's "true stories" page.
VTunderground (Go, Hokies!):
I agree that Pelican's are generally bullet-proof and good values. My own M6 incan has served me well. However, as Haesslich points out, your SF E2e incan/PM6 LED comparo is probably a stretch... and it may actually help make the case FOR premium lights like Surefire. Here's why...
Check the FlashLightReviews.com runtime chart for the PM6 LED. It hits 75% at 1 hr., and 50% at 2 hours. Oh, it has a nice long "tail" of marginal light, but that tail's light is often pretty useless in "crunch" time.
Now, if you'd bought a KL1 LED head for your E2 (I have), you'd get the exact same output (Throw/Spill) as your PM6 LED -- BUT FOR NEARLY 3 HOURS, FLAT-AND-LEVEL! Not declining swiftly after 1 hr. like your Pelican. (See FLReviews runtime graph re KL1, also.)
You're correct that the E2, like many incans, often have bulb/lamp issues that require special attention. However, if your Peli M6 LED craps out when you're spelunking a quarter mile underground -- and then you discover ya lost your back-up light and spare batteries -- I betcha you'd pay a helluva lot more than the E2/KL1 LED combo's cost (about twice the Pelican's cost) to have one right there in your hand!
The damning thing (at least for me) about Pelican and others, is their inflated and misleading runtime claims. They claim mega hours of light. Technically true... but practical lies.
We all place our bets in life's great lottery...
That's a great story. Send it in to Surefire. Betcha they'll print it on their website's "true stories" page.
VTunderground (Go, Hokies!):
I agree that Pelican's are generally bullet-proof and good values. My own M6 incan has served me well. However, as Haesslich points out, your SF E2e incan/PM6 LED comparo is probably a stretch... and it may actually help make the case FOR premium lights like Surefire. Here's why...
Check the FlashLightReviews.com runtime chart for the PM6 LED. It hits 75% at 1 hr., and 50% at 2 hours. Oh, it has a nice long "tail" of marginal light, but that tail's light is often pretty useless in "crunch" time.
Now, if you'd bought a KL1 LED head for your E2 (I have), you'd get the exact same output (Throw/Spill) as your PM6 LED -- BUT FOR NEARLY 3 HOURS, FLAT-AND-LEVEL! Not declining swiftly after 1 hr. like your Pelican. (See FLReviews runtime graph re KL1, also.)
You're correct that the E2, like many incans, often have bulb/lamp issues that require special attention. However, if your Peli M6 LED craps out when you're spelunking a quarter mile underground -- and then you discover ya lost your back-up light and spare batteries -- I betcha you'd pay a helluva lot more than the E2/KL1 LED combo's cost (about twice the Pelican's cost) to have one right there in your hand!
The damning thing (at least for me) about Pelican and others, is their inflated and misleading runtime claims. They claim mega hours of light. Technically true... but practical lies.
We all place our bets in life's great lottery...
jbrown50
Newly Enlightened
I'd say yes, they are worth it.
I bought a G2 for $27 from my local gun shop and it has the LOTC. For a "cheap" Flashlight it is very well made, durable, reliable and very bright. I keep it in a nylon belt pouch on my belt all day long and use it regularly.
I previously carried a Streamlight Scorpion with the adjustable head, always on button feature and aluminum body with rubber grip. Nice light for the price. Problem is that it would sometimes kill brand new 123s right after installation and testing. Finally the flimsily attached spring came loose from the switch head and from that point on it would stay on constantly
.
Streamlight has the same lifetime warranty as Surefire and I sent it off to Streamlight for repair. The point is that a warranty does little good if the light comes up dead when I need it the most.
Get a G2 and don't look back.
I bought a G2 for $27 from my local gun shop and it has the LOTC. For a "cheap" Flashlight it is very well made, durable, reliable and very bright. I keep it in a nylon belt pouch on my belt all day long and use it regularly.
I previously carried a Streamlight Scorpion with the adjustable head, always on button feature and aluminum body with rubber grip. Nice light for the price. Problem is that it would sometimes kill brand new 123s right after installation and testing. Finally the flimsily attached spring came loose from the switch head and from that point on it would stay on constantly
Streamlight has the same lifetime warranty as Surefire and I sent it off to Streamlight for repair. The point is that a warranty does little good if the light comes up dead when I need it the most.
Get a G2 and don't look back.
vtunderground
Enlightened
Haesslich: No, it's not a fair comparison, because the M6 LED HA-III is such a better value I made the comparison because they both cost around $100.
TonkinWarrior: That runtime chart is for the unregulated PM6 LED. I would LOVE to see a runtime chart for the regulated PM6 HA-III... I believe that mine drops out of regulation sooner than the three hours of the KL1, but it'd be interesting to see how flat the regulation is.
I made the comparison because they both cost around $100.TonkinWarrior: That runtime chart is for the unregulated PM6 LED. I would LOVE to see a runtime chart for the regulated PM6 HA-III... I believe that mine drops out of regulation sooner than the three hours of the KL1, but it'd be interesting to see how flat the regulation is.
vtunderground said:Haesslich: No, it's not a fair comparison, because the M6 LED HA-III is such a better value
TonkinWarrior: That runtime chart is for the unregulated PM6 LED. I would LOVE to see a runtime chart for the regulated PM6 HA-III... I believe that mine drops out of regulation sooner than the three hours of the KL1, but it'd be interesting to see how flat the regulation is.
For fair comparision, you should compare it to the E2L. At least then they are both LED and both can be had for around $100.
It's like any other high-end product. Sometimes, it's just the joy of having something so well engineered and tough and cool. Something that you can stick in your pocket and know that people are the top of the food chain like military and law enforcement personnel are using the same stuff.
Would it be "worth" it to track down an original Emerson CQC6 and pay 2-grand? Is it "better" than a $100 production knife? Does it cut better?
I think that Surefire lights are actually WORTH it. They are worth saving up for and worth ordering and worth having. BUT not just as a flashlight. As a flashlight, they are not worth anything more a similar light that is bright and durable and dependable. They are worth it as a SUREFIRE. As an item that is just cool. Fun to have. Engineered to the Nth degree. Fun to reward yourself with when you get a bonus at work, or put in some overtime, or for the holidays when you've been a good boy or girl. They are serious equipment, fun to accessorize, but also fun to take to the range, serious enough to depend on when you need to check out that noise in the night, or find that lost person in the woods, or just find your car keys in the sofa cusions.
To me, nothing beats a Maglite for simple bare bones durability, availability, value, battery cost and availability, spare bulb cost and availability, and general usefulness. But I carry a Surefire E1 in my pocket, a C2 in my jacket wherever I go, and a Z3 by my bedside. Did I get the absolute MOST VALUE for my money? Probably not. I could have used Pelican products or Streamlight products and my needs would have been met and I'd have money to spare. But do I want to use a Surefire? Yes. The combination of what they are, how well they're made, and what they are made to do makes them worth having for me.
Would it be "worth" it to track down an original Emerson CQC6 and pay 2-grand? Is it "better" than a $100 production knife? Does it cut better?
I think that Surefire lights are actually WORTH it. They are worth saving up for and worth ordering and worth having. BUT not just as a flashlight. As a flashlight, they are not worth anything more a similar light that is bright and durable and dependable. They are worth it as a SUREFIRE. As an item that is just cool. Fun to have. Engineered to the Nth degree. Fun to reward yourself with when you get a bonus at work, or put in some overtime, or for the holidays when you've been a good boy or girl. They are serious equipment, fun to accessorize, but also fun to take to the range, serious enough to depend on when you need to check out that noise in the night, or find that lost person in the woods, or just find your car keys in the sofa cusions.
To me, nothing beats a Maglite for simple bare bones durability, availability, value, battery cost and availability, spare bulb cost and availability, and general usefulness. But I carry a Surefire E1 in my pocket, a C2 in my jacket wherever I go, and a Z3 by my bedside. Did I get the absolute MOST VALUE for my money? Probably not. I could have used Pelican products or Streamlight products and my needs would have been met and I'd have money to spare. But do I want to use a Surefire? Yes. The combination of what they are, how well they're made, and what they are made to do makes them worth having for me.
