Are we (Americans) getting stupid?

[kaichu dento]

kaichu dento,

You bring up a great point, and being from Japan I know what you mean...

...but it also brings up another interesting point.

While it's not so much about stupidity, my point will be more about common sense/respect. As you already know, in Japan it's mandatory for kids (yes, elementary school kids) to clean their own classrooms. That's right, janitor work. The results are cleaner classrooms and respect for their work area. While I'm sure there are a few "less than clean" classrooms in Japan, it's a far cry compared to classes here in the States.

I'm a teacher/tutor, and asking a kid to pick up their garbage will get you a look like you're an alien.

I really liked working with the kids, but not a lot of the teachers, or I should say, not many of the English teachers. Most of them were so cocksure of their English that they would argue proper pronunciation, usage and definitions, all to the detriment of their students.

Same thing is happening in this country as professors with their ego being the main reason for teaching fill the students heads with whatever they would like them to think, without really considering the importance of teaching them to think for themselves.

I loved watching the floor cleaning races!

Talk about oversimplifying a country/culture. I hate to break it to you, but not everyone in Japan grows up to be a "salary man" or "office lady".:laughing: Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, out of all my Japanese relatives, there's only one salary man (and I have a HUGE family). He's not the stereotypical-overworked-and-stressed-out salary man either- he lives a quiet, happy life with his family.

The youth are actually becoming more "Americanized", more rebellious (or as they say in Japanese, "hankouki"). In fact a lot of words from English are being borrowed and incorporated into their daily language. As for university students in Japan having part-time jobs to buy their goodies and feed their cell phones, it's really no different here in the US of A (including Ma and Pa paying for their education- that's a big one).

+1

People who hate being pigeonholed seem to love doing it to others.

By the way, your English is excellent, great pronunciation too!

 

[Wits' End]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I'll mention something I observed. I moved out to NE MN about 15 years ago, from Connecticut. I managed Fast Food level employees in both places. Southern CT is densely populated, with high $ schools. Here in Lake County, MN there are two high schools serving a population of 10k people, graduating classes in the sub 100's, quite often fewer than 50. The students I managed here were more intelligent (at least used their abilities better), more hardworking, better able to work with a guy twice their age, etc. etc.
However I've noticed a decline, (this is said as someone who now runs a family operated shop, but I still see the High School demographic). About 12 years ago I was talking to a new English teacher. He was lamenting that he was seeing some of the teaching time getting crowded out to meet government requirements, test prep, community service training, etc. . I hadn't connected the increased gov't control with decreased student performance so solidly before now.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

I really liked working with the kids, but not a lot of the teachers, or I should say, not many of the English teachers. Most of them were so cocksure of their English that they would argue proper pronunciation, usage and definitions, all to the detriment of their students.

Same thing is happening in this country as professors with their ego being the main reason for teaching fill the students heads with whatever they would like them to think, without really considering the importance of teaching them to think for themselves.

When I was taking English in college, nothing bugged the teacher more than when you corrected her on her English written on the board, especially when you were right. Sometimes the teacher needed a lesson in humility. I gave her plenty of lessons. Those teachers often needed a lesson in humility as they were stuck up, had a major ego, and thought that they knew everything. It's hard to learn from someone who can't admit their mistakes and always thinks they're right and you're wrong. Making mistakes and correcting them is part of the learning process, and when a teacher doesn't admit his or her mistakes, and doesn't tolerate a student making mistakes, real learning can't take place.

 

[dudemar]

I really liked working with the kids, but not a lot of the teachers, or I should say, not many of the English teachers. Most of them were so cocksure of their English that they would argue proper pronunciation, usage and definitions, all to the detriment of their students.

It's definitely the overinflated egos...

Same thing is happening in this country as professors with their ego being the main reason for teaching fill the students heads with whatever they would like them to think, without really considering the importance of teaching them to think for themselves.

I've had so many college instructors fill in their lesson plan with their own agenda, it's ridiculous. I can honestly say I've only had a handful of teachers who did a decent (if not great) job.

I loved watching the floor cleaning races!

I know exactly what you're talking about! When I visited my cousin's classroom in Japan, they did the classroom cleaning routine. For the life of me I couldn't do the running/holding the rag combination, I was going to fall over! So I got on my hands and knees and started cleaning, and they called it "old maid style".

By the way, your English is excellent, great pronunciation too!

I grew up on a US Army base just outside of Tokyo, so that explains my fluency in English. My dad's American and my mom's Japanese, so I got the best of both worlds. I never actually went to a Japanese school (only American), but I can still speak Japanese at an elementary level. I am currently studying to boost my command in Japanese significantly.:twothumbs

 

[Sarratt]

...., nothing bugged the teacher more than when you corrected her on her English written on the board, especially when you were right. Sometimes the teacher needed a lesson in humility. I gave her plenty of lessons. Those teachers often needed a lesson in humility as they were stuck up, had a major ego, and thought that they knew everything. ..../quote]

Did "those" teachers or "her" or perhaps "they need a lesson" .... hummm

However

Yes we are getting stupid.
As a Canadian I look back to your (American) founding fathers. Most spoke Latin , French maybe Greek and when asked a philosophical question, did not brush it aside.
Hell yes you are getting more stupid , just faster and harder like you always do, but we ALL seem to becoming "stupid"

I don't excuse myself. I just tried dividing 97 into 234 long hand and came up with maybe 3 or 13 .
When I was 10 I cudda done it I am sure

(ps ..... it REALLY didn't help not to have an intellectual in your highest post.... that dumb move will take generations to repair )

 

[dudemar]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I'll mention something I observed. I moved out to NE MN about 15 years ago, from Connecticut. I managed Fast Food level employees in both places. Southern CT is densely populated, with high $ schools. Here in Lake County, MN there are two high schools serving a population of 10k people, graduating classes in the sub 100's, quite often fewer than 50. The students I managed here were more intelligent (at least used their abilities better), more hardworking, better able to work with a guy twice their age, etc. etc.
However I've noticed a decline, (this is said as someone who now runs a family operated shop, but I still see the High School demographic). About 12 years ago I was talking to a new English teacher. He was lamenting that he was seeing some of the teaching time getting crowded out to meet government requirements, test prep, community service training, etc. . I hadn't connected the increased gov't control with decreased student performance so solidly before now.

I have cousins in MN (outside Minneapolis), and generally they seem to be more courteous, intelligent and have more common sense than anyone I've met here in CA.

...but as you mentioned, I'm sure the brain-drain is becoming more evident in recent generations.

 

[dudemar]

-

 

[dudemar]

I don't excuse myself. I just tried dividing 97 into 234 long hand and came up with maybe 3 or 13 .
When I was 10 I cudda done it I am sure

Your answer will be 2.412.
I did it in my head... that's what happens when you take Kumon.

 

[jtr1962]

When I was taking English in college, nothing bugged the teacher more than when you corrected her on her English written on the board, especially when you were right. Sometimes the teacher needed a lesson in humility. I gave her plenty of lessons. Those teachers often needed a lesson in humility as they were stuck up, had a major ego, and thought that they knew everything. It's hard to learn from someone who can't admit their mistakes and always thinks they're right and you're wrong. Making mistakes and correcting them is part of the learning process, and when a teacher doesn't admit his or her mistakes, and doesn't tolerate a student making mistakes, real learning can't take place.

This is a real problem in the educational system, and has been for a long time. Ever heard the saying "those who can do, those who can't teach"? This is for the most part true. The problem of course is that the ability to admit you don't know things seems to be inversely proportional to the amount you really do know. Brilliant people are readily aware of how little they really do know. Many teachers on the other hand don't think a subject exists which they aren't expert in. In a way this is good life preparation for the students. While correcting a teacher can sometimes be a good idea if their ego isn't easily bruised, more often than not it'll simply result in you failing the class and/or getting dressed down in front of your classmates. So instead you just learn to keep your mouth shut. Replace "teacher" with "boss" and you can see that this lesson carries over very well to the working world. Showing you're smarter than the boss is a sure recipe for getting fired in most places. The best piece of advice I might offer a child who has a stupid teacher is "They may be stupid but they're in charge".

Sadly, the systems in place, both in school and business, aren't really set up to nurture and reward thinkers. They haven't been for a long time. Now all we care about are turning out good little consumers who won't question their boss, and who will be easily brainwashed by advertising. We just don't seem to value independent thinkers in today's society.

 

[kaichu dento]

When I was taking English in college, nothing bugged the teacher more than when you corrected her on her English written on the board, especially when you were right. Sometimes the teacher needed a lesson in humility. I gave her plenty of lessons. Those teachers often needed a lesson in humility as they were stuck up, had a major ego, and thought that they knew everything. It's hard to learn from someone who can't admit their mistakes and always thinks they're right and you're wrong. Making mistakes and correcting them is part of the learning process, and when a teacher doesn't admit his or her mistakes, and doesn't tolerate a student making mistakes, real learning can't take place.

Worse yet, the teacher actually 'teaches' the students never to admit they're wrong. Pride becomes one of their prime driving motivations, to the detriment of everything and everyone else. Teachers that can admit they don't know all and that they make mistakes the same as anyone else has the rare opportunity to show their students how to take their mistakes and learn from them, and also that there should be nothing to be embarrassed about when you make an honest mistake.

 

[LukeA]

To the thread title, in a word, no. Our communication advances allow almost anyone to hear almost instantly about almost any event happening almost anywhere. I'll liken that to the fact that now is the safest time to be a human being ever. But thanks to the internet and 24-hour news it doesn't seem that way. We can find out about almost any unfortunate event occuring almost anywhere, unlike the past, where only the most heinous or the most local events were in the minds of the populace.

 

[LukeA]

Sadly, the systems in place, both in school and business, aren't really set up to nurture and reward thinkers. They haven't been for a long time. Now all we care about are turning out good little consumers who won't question their boss, and who will be easily brainwashed by advertising. We just don't seem to value independent thinkers in today's society.

That may be true some places in the world, but the United States is most certainly not one of those places. If the United States didn't reward thinking and thinking outside of the box, then we wouldn't reach our quota of H-1B visas in April.

I will say that the enthusiasm with which science and mathematics are approached in this country has waned in the past two decades, but not to the extent that you suggest. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, then the United States' main competitor, math and science haven't been viewed as the powerful economic weapons they were once considered to be. The dotcom boom and and the booming world economy temporarily removed the incentives for effective math and science education. The money to be made was in finance, not in math or science or engineering. With the dotcom boom gone bust and the economy as it stands today though, that's starting to change, and with that change in national priorities comes a shift in educational priorities toward proficiency in the subjects that the nation finds important.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

Worse yet, the teacher actually 'teaches' the students never to admit they're wrong. Pride becomes one of their prime driving motivations, to the detriment of everything and everyone else. Teachers that can admit they don't know all and that they make mistakes the same as anyone else has the rare opportunity to show their students how to take their mistakes and learn from them, and also that there should be nothing to be embarrassed about when you make an honest mistake.

As a karate instructor, one of the first lessons our students learn is that it's okay to make mistakes. If you learn from those mistakes, it will make you better. However, giving up or quitting is not okay. As soon as you give up, you can no longer grow or learn, and that is when you truly fail. We tell them to have a blackbelt attitude and a white belt mind. A blackbelt attitude means that you never give up and you never stop trying. The words quit, no, and I can't are not in the blackbelt's vocabulary. A white belt mind is one that is open to learning new things, and not just from the teacher, from anyone. As an instructor, I have to stay humble enough to realize that I make mistakes too, and that's okay as long as I learn from them. It's also okay if my students become better than me in martial arts. If a student has ten times as much talent as me, I need to help them to be the best that they can be instead of telling them that my best is as far as they can go. As the highest ranking person in the school, I try to learn from my students instead of assuming that I know everything. In sparring, I quickly learn my weaknesses when I get hit by a student. In one steps and takedowns, every student is different and I have to adapt to different distances when they throw a punch, and adapt to different sizes and weights of students when I take them down. Some of their questions really make me think, and sometimes I have to talk to the other blackbelts for us to find an answer. When I see a student making one of the same mistakes I have made in the past, I try to not only show them how to correct the mistake, but tell them the what happens when they make that mistake so they know why they need to do it the right way without getting hurt. When the teacher stops learning and thinks that they know everything, it can hold back the students from reaching their full potential. Unfortunetly, most school teachers let pride get in the way of teaching. I try to be proud of my students instead of myself. If they get better, it means I did my job right. If I became the perfect blackbelt somehow, but noone could learn from me to reach my level, I'd be a lousy teacher. Colleges need to teach teachers humility instead of pride.

 

[kaichu dento]

As a karate instructor, one of the first lessons our students learn is that it's okay to make mistakes. If you learn from those mistakes, it will make you better. However, giving up or quitting is not okay. As soon as you give up, you can no longer grow or learn, and that is when you truly fail. We tell them to have a blackbelt attitude and a white belt mind. A blackbelt attitude means that you never give up and you never stop trying. The words quit, no, and I can't are not in the blackbelt's vocabulary. A white belt mind is one that is open to learning new things, and not just from the teacher, from anyone. As an instructor, I have to stay humble enough to realize that I make mistakes too, and that's okay as long as I learn from them. It's also okay if my students become better than me in martial arts. If a student has ten times as much talent as me, I need to help them to be the best that they can be instead of telling them that my best is as far as they can go. As the highest ranking person in the school, I try to learn from my students instead of assuming that I know everything. In sparring, I quickly learn my weaknesses when I get hit by a student. In one steps and takedowns, every student is different and I have to adapt to different distances when they throw a punch, and adapt to different sizes and weights of students when I take them down. Some of their questions really make me think, and sometimes I have to talk to the other blackbelts for us to find an answer. When I see a student making one of the same mistakes I have made in the past, I try to not only show them how to correct the mistake, but tell them the what happens when they make that mistake so they know why they need to do it the right way without getting hurt. When the teacher stops learning and thinks that they know everything, it can hold back the students from reaching their full potential. Unfortunetly, most school teachers let pride get in the way of teaching. I try to be proud of my students instead of myself. If they get better, it means I did my job right. If I became the perfect blackbelt somehow, but noone could learn from me to reach my level, I'd be a lousy teacher. Colleges need to teach teachers humility instead of pride.

Excellent post and it's a relief to see others feel this way too.

When I'm talking to Japanese interested in the subject of English I always state that true humility and interest in the students progress over one's own ego is the hallmark of the best of teachers. Unfortunately, and all too often, the self-interest driven teachers climb the highest and crush those below them.

In two and a half years of teaching English at close to 50 schools and after school study centers, I only met one teacher who met the standard described above. She couldn't speak English herself, but her 5th grade students were the only ones I met during that time period who had decent pronunciation, could carry on a semi-natural sounding conversation, and listened intently to what both their teacher and I had to say. Teachers like that are a national treasure, but unfortunately, they are usually stuck beneath the feet of the ego driven.

 

[kaichu dento]

It's definitely the overinflated egos...

I've had so many college instructors fill in their lesson plan with their own agenda, it's ridiculous. I can honestly say I've only had a handful of teachers who did a decent (if not great) job.

I know exactly what you're talking about! When I visited my cousin's classroom in Japan, they did the classroom cleaning routine. For the life of me I couldn't do the running/holding the rag combination, I was going to fall over! So I got on my hands and knees and started cleaning, and they called it "old maid style".

I grew up on a US Army base just outside of Tokyo, so that explains my fluency in English. My dad's American and my mom's Japanese, so I got the best of both worlds. I never actually went to a Japanese school (only American), but I can still speak Japanese at an elementary level. I am currently studying to boost my command in Japanese significantly.:twothumbs

So you grew up in Japan speaking English more than Japanese!?! :laughing:

How often do you get back there? You know ArcMania is there too, and speaks both languages very naturally. I'm hoping to get together with him again next time around.

I look forward to getting back there everytime and the more I think about my time teaching English there, the more I want to do it again, but this time with a more progress oriented focus and less of teaching the teachers mistakes.

 

[dudemar]

So you grew up in Japan speaking English more than Japanese!?! :laughing:

How often do you get back there? You know ArcMania is there too, and speaks both languages very naturally. I'm hoping to get together with him again next time around.

I spoke both languages growing up. That's the benefit of growing up on a US Military base in Japan, you get the best of both worlds. As a fellow CPFer once told me, "I am both". What did I love the most about living on base? It's a very unique living experience. As a kid, one minute I can be shopping at the commissary for Sloppy Joes and Kool-Aid with my mom, and the next minute I can go off-base and be right smack in the middle of Japan- JR stations, Ramen-yasan, Yodobashi Kamera, Ito-Yokado, you name it. AFAIK it was my heaven on earth. That was 20 years ago, and I was 7 years old when I moved to the US.

I miss home.

If you're ever interested look up Camp Zama and Sagamihara Housing Area, the latter is where I lived. You can actually see them on Google Maps. It's really neat to see a densely packed Tokyo suburb, then BAM! Right in the middle of it all, there's a chunk of land filled with trees and lots of space.

It's been 10 years since I last visited, and if I were to visit tomorrow I'd have absolutely no problem getting by.

While I only retain an elementary level to speak, read and write in Japanese, consider these facts. I've received absolutely no formal education in my native tounge, the lengthly time span since my last visit, and the fact I've only used it very sparingly in the past 20 years since moving here from Japan, I think it's quite an impressive feat.



Getting back on topic of dumbing down intelligence/common sense/manners...

You know the one thing I miss the most about Japan? McDonald's. I'm serious. The McDonald's over here is an abortion compared to what's served over there. The fries are actually hot and crunchy, the hamburgers really look like the pictures in the menu, and the Chicken McNuggets taste fantastic. Most importantly, though, they actually have customer service- something noticeably absent stateside. You literally get what you order... in the sense they never get your order wrong.

You know what happens in the rare instance they get your order wrong? They apologize for their mistake. Yes, the guy who just took your order and served you the food you paid for with your hard-earned cash, will acknowledge making a mistake and apologize for it. Something that will NEVER happen here. Ever. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. Even if the employee's life depended on it, it's not going to happen. If anything he'll blame you for the mistake.

IMO this is a VERY strong indicator of where our country (the US) is going. If you can't expect a certain level of service at a McDonald's, then how can you expect a certain level of service ANYWHERE?

 

[nisshin]

You know what happens in the rare instance they get your order wrong? They apologize for their mistake.

And when you leave the store, even during busy times, they'll call out "Thanks for coming!" (of course in Japanese). They have a "smile" on the menu that costs zero yen.

 

[StarHalo]

"We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific manual tasks." -Woodrow Wilson

"In our dreams... people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets, or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple... we will organize children... and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way." - General Education Board, 1906